The Flipper: Hero of the Markets
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2010-09-25 10:53 in The Market and Inventions
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You seem to be saying saying that the blueprint for the building and the building itself are the same thing. |
Originally Posted by Minotaur
Would agree with you IF there was an in game constructive use for a recipe (like you could deconstruct it and get some salvage out or something, I don't consider the negligible amount of vendor inf to fall into that category). There isn't, a recipe and an IO ARE the same item as far as using them for anything other than making inf goes.
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They quite obviously are not.
I'm no longer sure what point you're trying to make, but this particular train of thought is steaming right off a cliff.
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| Maybe the forum cognoscenti use the terms precisely, but out in the chat channels the word flipper is used to describe both practices. |
When you're dealing with people who know what they're talking about it pays to use terminology correctly.
If I dropped in on a PvP thread and started insisting on my own definitions for well established PvP terminology on the basis that people "in the chat channels" defined them this or that way I'd be rightfully mocked and derided.
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People who don't understand economics may use the term "flipper" to refer to things that aren't flippers, much as people who don't know anything about computers might refer to all sorts of programs as "trojans" even if they aren't. Doesn't mean they're right, or that using the words that badly helps anyone communcate.
The question is not "can I justify my choice of words by appealing to some imagined authority?". The question is "what choice of words will let the people I'm talking to understand what I'm saying?".
If you call people who play the market "marketeers", and either don't use the word flippers, or use it only for people who buy things in order to resell exactly those things, unchanged, everyone takes the same meaning from your writing that you intended when you wrote it. If you call crafters "flippers", many people misunderstand what you think you are saying, and even if you "clarify" it, they will be caught up by your misuse of the word rather than noticing any point you may have had.
Human nature isn't changing any time soon. You can adjust your vocabulary whenever you want. Whether you want to be understood or not is up to you.
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Amen to that. How did we get to 8 pages of debate over this?
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I find it refreshing, or perhaps horrific, that this thread exemplifies everything that is wrong in the real world of finance these days.
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Talen covered it in the quote I stole for my sig. =P|
Originally Posted by twelfth
Amen to that. How did we get to 8 pages of debate over this?
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VVVVVVVV
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My City Was Gone
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I'll take Crafting Badges for 500, Alex.
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Originally Posted by Minotaur
Would agree with you IF there was an in game constructive use for a recipe (like you could deconstruct it and get some salvage out or something, I don't consider the negligible amount of vendor inf to fall into that category). There isn't, a recipe and an IO ARE the same item as far as using them for anything other than making inf goes.
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There are at least two groups of people doing circular arguments around logical fallacies:|
Originally Posted by twelfth
Amen to that. How did we get to 8 pages of debate over this?
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1) "The flipper has the lowest list price" and "The flipper has the highest bid price" -- which is only true in small instances.
2) "Flippers are evil and raise prices and ruin the game for everyone one". Also true in small instances: flipping does tend to raise the minimum price that one would need to pay for an item.
Both sides are equally wrong in asserting that their side is a general truth.
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You do not win a bid without offering the highest current price.|
Originally Posted by Chriffer
There are at least two groups of people doing circular arguments around logical fallacies:
1) "The flipper has the lowest list price" and "The flipper has the highest bid price" -- which is only true in small instances. |
You do not sell an item without having the lowest currently listed price.
These are foundational pillars of the CoH market and as such a 'general truth'.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Are you keeping score when your new Talen supplied signature gets 'used'? |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
You do not win a bid without offering the highest current price.
You do not sell an item without having the lowest currently listed price. These are foundational pillars of the CoH market and as such a 'general truth'. |
Honestly I wish it were possible to get all flippers to take a month off and watch some real whining on the forums about market prices.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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We could form a union with the farmers, call a general strike then watch the 'casual gamers' go all Mad Max on each other.
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
Honestly I wish it were possible to get all flippers to take a month off and watch some real whining on the forums about market prices. |
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Well that's how flipping usually works. You make reasonably low bids and then wait for the price on what you're trying to flip to move downward. Flipping only works because the prices for things on the market are in constant fluctuation, and they're in constant fluctuation because buyers are competing with other buyers to get the things they want. |
Originally Posted by Chriffer
There are at least two groups of people doing circular arguments around logical fallacies:
1) "The flipper has the lowest list price" and "The flipper has the highest bid price" -- which is only true in small instances. |
What was the highest price yesterday might be the lowest price today, or vice-versa. So the saying is technically true, but anyone trying to espouse that as an absolute is being a bit myopic, I'd say.
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| 2) "Flippers are evil and raise prices and ruin the game for everyone one". Also true in small instances: flipping does tend to raise the minimum price that one would need to pay for an item. |
If every buyer had infinite patience and only ever bid 1 inf on everything, sellers would be forced to eventually acquiesce. But the buyers are human, so that's not going to happen!
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Maybe we could all PvP for a month?
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
We could form a union with the farmers, call a general strike then watch the 'casual gamers' go all Mad Max on each other.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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If only all flippers and farmers were loyal to each other!|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
We could form a union with the farmers, call a general strike then watch the 'casual gamers' go all Mad Max on each other.
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But if you're busy not flipping, that just leaves more inf out there for me to scoop up!
Oh for crying out loud...
Who here has a retirement fund?
*Looks at all of the raised hands*
You're all flippers. Every last one of you. You're buying something with the sole intention of selling it for more than you paid for it.
*shakes head*
Imagine the stock market without "flippers".
Works pretty well, doesn't it?
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I can already tell you their canned response to your reasoned comment:|
Originally Posted by Misaligned
Oh for crying out loud...
Who here has a retirement fund? *Looks at all of the raised hands* You're all flippers. Every last one of you. You're buying something with the sole intention of selling it for more than you paid for it. *shakes head* Imagine the stock market without "flippers". Works pretty well, doesn't it? |
"This is a game and it's supposed to be fun not work."
Of course the counter to that is that the flippers are having fun.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Rule of acquisition #3: "Never spend more for an acquisition than you have to. "
In the case of the flipper, what is being acquired is more inf.
throwing billions of inf on a giant pyre in the middle of the Crazy 88's base is the most fun I've had in years!
YMMV
=p
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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The counter argument to that is that the flipper's fun is causing a lot of unfun for the non-flippers. As an example: I'm certain that griefers are having a lot of fun, but their victims are quite likely not!
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Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I can already tell you their canned response to your reasoned comment:
"This is a game and it's supposed to be fun not work." Of course the counter to that is that the flippers are having fun. |
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Since flippers operate within the rule structure of the game your example is a leaky burlap sack full of fail.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
The counter argument to that is that the flipper's fun is causing a lot of unfun for the non-flippers. As an example: I'm certain that griefers are having a lot of fun, but their victims are quite likely not!
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The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Like that ever stops them. |
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
Since flippers operate within the rule structure of the game your example is a leaky burlap sack full of fail.
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total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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No matter who was on the tracks.|
Originally Posted by Minotaur
Yeah, and their [fascists'] trains kept better time
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Originally Posted by seebs
Eryq2, we've pointed this out repeatedly: By keeping bid offers up, the flipper makes more things go on the market to begin with, that would otherwise have been vendored. This is not only measureable, it's measured. We've done the experiment.
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Originally Posted by seebs
No, you're paying less. Or, alternatively, you're paying rather than not paying because there aren't any.
If you take an item which sells for wildly fluctuating prices, and sometimes there's no supply within a factor of ten of the "normal" price, and add a couple of flippers who do nothing at all but place tons of bids at lowish prices, and list at highish prices, within a couple of weeks the item has a stable supply at a price somewhere between the low and high end of the previous range. That this should happen is pretty much obvious. Most salvage, if I'm gonna sell it, I'm gonna sell it by listing at 1inf and not even looking. But wait! Most of the time, I get under 1k inf. Or even under 250. Which means I'd be better off vendoring... So a vendoring I go. Now, what happens if that flipper is there, consistently bidding more than the vendor will pay me? Why, I always sell the item at the marketplace, because I'm guaranteed to get at least that good a price -- better if anyone's bidding at higher values. Meaning more of the item in question go on the market to begin with. Seriously, this is very basic economics. Flippers, in general, stabilize prices by driving the high end down and the low end up. They make it easier to buy things for predictable prices. Now, those prices may not be as low as you'd like -- but in the absence of a flipper, either you'd be paying more or you'd be waiting a longer time for your bids to fill. Or both. |
Yes. You are 100% correct that you are stabilizing the price.
BUT, you're stabilizing it at a higher average cost than if you didn't exist.
Proof? Your profit. From where did it come? From other players. Your profit doesn't magically appear out of thin air.
This thread makes the judgment that this service of stabilization is overall a good thing for buyers and sellers. That is where the economic voodoo comes into play.
If left alone by flippers, the market would stabilize at a lower price. Just because there is volatility doesn't mean there is DOOM for buyers and sellers (who actually produced the good and will consume it). A little patience and time would stabilize the market.
Flippers capitalize on volatility. Which does indeed reduce the volatility -- I'm not arguing that that is not the case. But that 'service' comes at a cost. The cost of the profit of the flippers. Which winds up driving up the average price of the goods.
Arguing that the average price is not driven up by flippers is pure self-serving willful ignorance.
BTW, 'flippers', if flipping actually creates a market for sellers, then make Kinetic Weapons worth selling.
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I'm not sure it can be proven that the market would stabilize at a lower price without flipping. I'm not sure it can be proven that the market would stabilize at all without people flipping.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
No matter who was on the tracks.
Yes. You are 100% correct that you are stabilizing the price. BUT, you're stabilizing it at a higher average cost than if you didn't exist. Proof? Your profit. From where did it come? From other players. Your profit doesn't magically appear out of thin air. This thread makes the judgment that this service of stabilization is overall a good thing for buyers and sellers. That is where the economic voodoo comes into play. If left alone by flippers, the market would stabilize at a lower price. Just because there is volatility doesn't mean there is DOOM for buyers and sellers (who actually produced the good and will consume it). A little patience and time would stabilize the market. Flippers capitalize on volatility. Which does indeed reduce the volatility -- I'm not arguing that that is not the case. But that 'service' comes at a cost. The cost of the profit of the flippers. Which winds up driving up the average price of the goods. Arguing that the average price is not driven up by flippers is pure self-serving willful ignorance. BTW, 'flippers', if flipping actually creates a market for sellers, then make Kinetic Weapons worth selling. |
I will accept that they raise the floor of prices but there's no way to determine what would happen to the average time of execution.
Sure the average prices could be lower but the average time to get a sale/buy might grow too. I value time over play money so I prefer their stability in time to execution of sales.
Of course since we have no way to actually prevent flipping we will never know.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Funny how the people who preach patience and time are the same ones who think people should be able to buy something right this instant for next to nothing.
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Originally Posted by Zombie Man
A little patience and time would stabilize the market.
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No, people would just vendor everything.
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Originally Posted by Coyote_Seven
If every buyer had infinite patience and only ever bid 1 inf on everything, sellers would be forced to eventually acquiesce. But the buyers are human, so that's not going to happen!
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Not necessarily true, and indeed, it can't be generally true, because transactions always destroy inf, meaning there's less inf when there are more transactions.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
BUT, you're stabilizing it at a higher average cost than if you didn't exist.
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| Proof? Your profit. From where did it come? From other players. Your profit doesn't magically appear out of thin air. |
Imagine an item which sells for 1 inf half the time and 100k inf half the time. Average is 50,000.5 inf.
Now imagine that I start bidding 100 inf and selling at 40k. My 40k sales are quite profitable for me, even though they're way lower than the previous high point. The average is no about 20,050. Lower average, but I'm making money.
Suggestion: Don't make claims about statistics unless you've got a math background to make them from.
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| If left alone by flippers, the market would stabilize at a lower price. |
Tickets, I got no idea what they were thinking....
Theres more than one interpretation depending on where you stand. I guess its true "if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail"