Buff Peacebringers!!
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i make stuff...
Frankly, I agree with a buff to Peacebringers, or a change to they're inherent power.
Frankly I don't think ANY AT should be dependent on teaming for they're power. It is EXTREMELY hard to solo, or even duo a Kheldian.
As such, I think it is perhaps time to give a bonus to PBers and WSs which is NOT dependent on having a bunch of friends online at the time.
perhaps a changing bonus based on the form. My suggestion would be Status resist for Human Form, (both WS and PBer)
WS: Damge Resist Debuff in Nova
WS: Accuracy Debuff in Dwarf
PBer: Accuracy buff for Nova
PBer: Damage Buff for Dwarf
These could be buffs which only take place when the PBer is alone, when on a team, the existing buff would be in place.
::Shrug::
"when i can savagely beat sheep while issuing ultimatums and torturing people, then i may go back into it" -vara nocturne
Not enough Evil...
I take it back NC SOFT is enough evil for anyone...
Okay, so the power itself hasn't been nerfed - it's just been overtaken by buffs to flight.
I would never argue that it was a good power for anything but a panic button, mind you, and I don't like panic buttons anyway... I was just curious. |
Now that powers can work different pVe then pVp I'd like to see the old q-flight back. Other power sets have emergency buttons with longish recharges, it would work well in that theme.
Frankly, I agree with a buff to Peacebringers, or a change to they're inherent power.
Frankly I don't think ANY AT should be dependent on teaming for they're power. It is EXTREMELY hard to solo, or even duo a Kheldian. As such, I think it is perhaps time to give a bonus to PBers and WSs which is NOT dependent on having a bunch of friends online at the time. |
My PB finally hit lvl 27.
I made myself a promise to level PB higher than lvl 14 this time and I did it!
PB is actually "ok" at lower level because you get a very good melee attack in radiant strike (this melee attack is probably one of the best at 10s recharge with only 1.07 act) and you get a heavy hitter at lvl 18.
The problem with PB is that after lvl 26, PB's potential just seems to drop quite a bit. Human form PB feels like a high Regen with a mix of range/melee and one healing power. It is actually not a bad idea IMO.
What's not good is the following powers:
1. Glinting Eye: 4s attack with 1.67 recharge. I would move it to 6s recharge and maybe Gleaming Blast to 10s and Bolt to 3s. Maybe they can do what they did for Energy Assault for Dominator. The problem is human form could be (or it already is?) doing more damage than the Squid form? Squid form is supposed to do the most damage?
2. I can live with Detonation doing aoe knockback (just like M3 Grenade) but why is Solar Flare aoe knockback? I really think PB human can be a lot more effective if Solar Flare is aoe knockdown.
I haven't tried Seekers yet. I am currently too busy with alphaing. It will be a while before I touch PB again.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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I cannot begin to fathom the thought processes that would lead to your wanting to further weaken Peacebringers.
Hint: Nova Form does more damage than Human Form, at range. If it doesn't feel like it, then you're doing something wrong. Asking for the recharge to be increased on the already anemic and slow firing blasts is downright asinine.
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Asking for the recharge to be increased on the already anemic and slow firing blasts is downright asinine. |
Oh, I have no experience on Nova form at all. It was only a question, not a statement that Human may deal more damage than Nova form. If I remember correctly, some experienced PB player said Human can deal more damage than Nova form?
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
That statement is true, but misleading.
Human form can do more damage overall, because Human form has access to both ranged and melee attacks, but Nova deals more ranged damage.
The assumption that Nova form must do more damage than human form at all times in all circumstances is a mistaken one. It was never the design intent. Nova is just better at range, at base.
And from what it sounded like, you said you wanted the recharge increased, but I didn't see a call to increase damage proportionately. That's why I wondered what the heck you were thinking. I still disagree with the thought process of slowing recharge to boost anemic damage to still anemic levels; the Peacebringer Human Form damage scalar means Peacebringers will always do anemic levels of damage when it comes to ranged attacks.
1. Glinting Eye: 4s attack with 1.67 recharge. I would move it to 6s recharge and maybe Gleaming Blast to 10s and Bolt to 3s. Maybe they can do what they did for Energy Assault for Dominator.
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When you're able to fire off a proc between 20-40 times per minute (depending on whether I stick it between my other attacks or just set it to auto) you're looking at a sustained resistance debuff of between 15% to 26% (the average amount over the course of a minute or more with the actual value swinging between 0% and 40+% from a possible multi-stack) while the damage proc is adding 700 to 1500 damage per minute to your chain (more when you consider that the debuff is taking place at the same time) because its going off so often.
It is my personal experience using the resistance debuff proc in such a rapidfire power and how significantly it effected my damage output (I went from 64.3 DPS to 89.3 DPS with my human form ranged attack chain just by adding those two procs) that led to my suggestion of adding a resistance debuff to all the PB's attacks as a means of both buffing damage and allowing it to "give back" more to the team.
Indeed, the more I've pondered ways to buff PB's while sticking to the cottage rule, the more I think answer to the problem is to add stacking debuffs to it via its attacks because this not only helps the PB, it also allows the PB to "give back" to the team (via debuffing foes) while not changing how it goes about doing so (i.e. blasting them to hell and back).
So if adding a resistance debuff isn't enough of a boost, then lets looks at adding some others. Brilliant light blinding a target makes sense, so adding a to-hit debuff (on top of defense and resistance) to the equation would not only help a PB's surivability but the teams as well (especially if nova form is spamming its AoE's on whole mobs). Likewise, the plasma blasts of the Praetorian clockwork inflict a regeneration debuff (as opposed to ongoing damage... both simulating that you're continuing to burn) so if those aren't enough throw in some minor amount of that as well.
The idea being that while a PB is blasting away they're helping the team by making each foe they strike a softer target for both the PB and their team to deal with and the debuffs can be tuned up or down relatively innocuously until the devs get the balance they feel is best for them... all the while keeping the current playstyle fundamentally unchanged for those who are happy with things as they are.
The problem is human form could be (or it already is?) doing more damage than the Squid form? Squid form is supposed to do the most damage? |
That would be a great change. Adding -to hit and -res and -regen debuffs, even if they're small ones, to Peacebringer's attacks would finally make it feel effective in a subtle way. That would fill in the missing "control/debuff" aspect of a Peacebringer and bolster its single target focus.
And such changes would probably make me /ragequit my PB. The incredibly quick recharge on gleaming bolt makes it a great carrier for procs (I have both the Achilles Heel defense debuff, and the Apocalypse damage proc in it) and its cast time (1s) plus recharge (.53s) on my build is actually LESS than the activation time of my other human-form ranged attacks (which have 1.67s activation times).
When you're able to fire off a proc between 20-40 times per minute (depending on whether I stick it between my other attacks or just set it to auto) you're looking at a sustained resistance debuff of between 15% to 26% (the average amount over the course of a minute or more with the actual value swinging between 0% and 40+% from a possible multi-stack) while the damage proc is adding 700 to 1500 damage per minute to your chain (more when you consider that the debuff is taking place at the same time) because its going off so often. It is my personal experience using the resistance debuff proc in such a rapidfire power and how significantly it effected my damage output (I went from 64.3 DPS to 89.3 DPS with my human form ranged attack chain just by adding those two procs) that led to my suggestion of adding a resistance debuff to all the PB's attacks as a means of both buffing damage and allowing it to "give back" more to the team. Indeed, the more I've pondered ways to buff PB's while sticking to the cottage rule, the more I think answer to the problem is to add stacking debuffs to it via its attacks because this not only helps the PB, it also allows the PB to "give back" to the team (via debuffing foes) while not changing how it goes about doing so (i.e. blasting them to hell and back). So if adding a resistance debuff isn't enough of a boost, then lets looks at adding some others. Brilliant light blinding a target makes sense, so adding a to-hit debuff (on top of defense and resistance) to the equation would not only help a PB's surivability but the teams as well (especially if nova form is spamming its AoE's on whole mobs). Likewise, the plasma blasts of the Praetorian clockwork inflict a regeneration debuff (as opposed to ongoing damage... both simulating that you're continuing to burn) so if those aren't enough throw in some minor amount of that as well. The idea being that while a PB is blasting away they're helping the team by making each foe they strike a softer target for both the PB and their team to deal with and the debuffs can be tuned up or down relatively innocuously until the devs get the balance they feel is best for them... all the while keeping the current playstyle fundamentally unchanged for those who are happy with things as they are. From my experience my human form is better at single-target DPS (which is why I tend to stick to human or light-form when soloing EB's) while nova is far better at multi-target DPS. In essence human form is "pocket scrapper" part of a tri-formers arsenal. |
So the part I bolded in the quote would not happen. If it procs, regardless of whether it procs multiple times within its own duration, you will only ever get 20% resistance debuff out of it.
However, in a power like Gleaming Bolt you have a much better chance of keeping that 20% sustained for longer periods.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Are you talking about the Achilles' Heel -resistance proc? If so, then I'm sorry to say that it doesn't stack, even if it procs from two separate powers.
So the part I bolded in the quote would not happen. |
The effect of the proc is flagged with "does not stack from the same caster." But it's more complicated than that. When the proc fires, it grants an auto power to the target. Since the enemy gains an auto power, the target is essentially giving himself a -20% debuff. So if eight people on a team all have the proc and it fires from all eight people, it's still the enemy giving the power to himself, and it doesn't stack from the same caster, which is always the enemy that has the power.
Where to now?
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
It doesn't stack at all. Even if two different players have it.
The effect of the proc is flagged with "does not stack from the same caster." But it's more complicated than that. When the proc fires, it grants an auto power to the target. Since the enemy gains an auto power, the target is essentially giving himself a -20% debuff. So if eight people on a team all have the proc and it fires from all eight people, it's still the enemy giving the power to himself, and it doesn't stack from the same caster, which is always the enemy that has the power. |
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
And such changes would probably make me /ragequit my PB. The incredibly quick recharge on gleaming bolt makes it a great carrier for procs (I have both the Achilles Heel defense debuff, and the Apocalypse damage proc in it) and its cast time (1s) plus recharge (.53s) on my build is actually LESS than the activation time of my other human-form ranged attacks (which have 1.67s activation times).
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AH proc can definitely improve your DPS but I would put it in several human attacks so you don't have to keep spamming Bolt just to wait for it to proc. Changing from 1.5s recharge to 3s isn't going to be that different. You at least get better base damage from spamming Bolt and Gleaming Bolt.
I can't afford Apocalypse damage proc so I won't even go into it.
My favorite attack in human form is actually Radian Strike. It's fast and does decent damage.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
Here's a (relatively) simple idea for buffing Peacebringers which I think we can all get behind.
Change the Duration of Build Up for Peacebringers from 10 seconds to 15 seconds (ie. 1/2 rather than 1/3 of Sunless Mire duration) ... and rebalance the buff values accordingly so that Build Up offers the same amount of Buff Over Time.
Before:
10 seconds @ +18% Tohit, +72% Damage, 90 second Recharge
After:
15 seconds @ +12% Tohit, +48% Damage, 90 second Recharge
Although this would reduce the immediate spike damage potential of Human Form attacks on a Damage Per Attack basis ... it would conversely make Build Up much more "friendly" with switching to Nova and Dwarf Forms, by making a greater duration of Build Up available after a Form switch. This in turn would make it possible to have Build Up cover a double (or triple, with enough +Recharge) series of attacks in Nova Form, in contrast to a single or double series of attacks while buffed with Build Up.
For those players able to complete a double chain of attacks within Build Up's 10 seconds, and a triple chain within 15, including Form Switch, this change would be a net wash (ie. no gain or loss of DPS). But for players who are not loaded with +Recharge, being able to go from a single attack chain @ +72% Damage to a double attack chain @ +48% Damage, this would offer a net DPS increase, simply due to the granularity of the timing.
It's not often that a solution to a problem can be found in which the Theoretical Maximum can be maintained at a given level of strength, yet the Theoretical Minimum gets buffed by the same solution. I'd like to think that this idea is one of those times.
The lack of reliable mez protection in human form is the big problem for PBs and WSs. Why you may ask? Well it wouldn't be such a big deal, if these classes weren't counterparts to Forts/Widows and Crabs/Banes, which all boast more than enough mez protection, and much of it from their passive powers. Hmmmm interesting... PBs and WSs start with a passive power in their secondary that is rarely ever useful except as a one slot wonderslave for an IO. Maybe some minor mez protection could be added to that power, and maybe even some stronger more focused mez protection could be put into the various sheilds... y'know to try and not force me to carry all break frees on a character that is, and I play like, a regen scrapper with light melee and zero mez protection. You shouldn't be forced to take dwarf form and slot it up just to counteract mez's, human form should be viable on its own.
"Look, personally I just want a new issue to feature changes that don't cause a mass exodus of players..."
Issue 17: We Didn't Break Anything!
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Which again highlights the importance of the cottage rule. What is not a big deal to you is a big deal to others... which is why all of my suggestions are for additions or flat-out improvements to the existing powers, not weakening them in some area (that someone else might find important) in order to add a buff elsewhere.
If the argument is that PB damage is too weak then it makes no sense to argue that we need longer recharge times to justify increasing the damage. We just need more damage at the SAME recharge. My suggestion is to add damage via a stacking resistance debuff because that would also allow the PB to give back something to an entire team (as would a to hit and/or regen debuff if necessary to get things balanced), but if you really wanted to you could just flat out increase the damage and leave it at that (I think that would be a bit boring though).
AH proc can definitely improve your DPS but I would put it in several human attacks so you don't have to keep spamming Bolt just to wait for it to proc. |
Or more simply... I don't play like you and you don't play like me... and that's perfectly acceptable.
I can't afford Apocalypse damage proc so I won't even go into it. |
My favorite attack in human form is actually Radian Strike. It's fast and does decent damage. |
This again comes down to differences in playstyle. I came into the PB from the perspective of my first 50... a pre-I6 fire/energy blaster where the first two fire attacks had base recharges of 2.18 and 4 seconds (vs. the 4 and 8 seconds of the other blaster types). Before that I had made it to level 20 on a tanker with super-strength (with 2 and 4 seconds recharges for its first two attacks as well). My favorite scrapper currently is a claws/willpower (1.7 and 3.2 second recharges for the first two attacks).
In short, I gravitate to powersets with very rapidly recharging attacks. It is my preferred playstyle. You are suggesting taking away one of the things that I most love about the Peacebringer because you don't think its a big deal. But my existance proves that others do think its a big deal. For me doubling the recharge times would be a deal-breaker that would have me quit PB's and possibly even the game as its my PB main that keeps me playing consistantly (all my other toons are filler).
And that's why the devs have the cottage rule. We bought into certain power sets with certain playstyles that were available to us. Making those powers work differently (ex. changing a set from weaker rapidfire attacks to slower higher damage attacks) can ruin our entire conception of a character that we may have put hundreds (if not thousands as is the case with my PB) of hours into. Wasting hundreds or thousands of hours of someone's time does NOT make them happy.
So if you want to argue that the damage should be increased, I won't disagree. But saying some other aspect of the powers should be worsened as part of the deal is something that I could not possibly hate and reject more.
If you can't guess by my likely over-repetition of certain points above, I feel VERY strongly about this point.
I don't believe in cottage rule. Rules are made by them and can be broken by them.
If certain things are just flat out broken/un-fun/stupid, they should be changed. The dev have broken cottage rule before and they will and should if there are things that just need to be changed.
In the case of Bolt's recharge (as one of my suggestions), it's not really changing "cottage rule". Because if this is the case, then most of Dominator's Assault sets all violated "cottage rule" when they buffed them with more recharge, higher base damage. I simply call it "balancing".
As for not having enough melee attacks for melee attack chain, well you can use range attacks at melee range too so I don't see that as a problem.
At this point, what PB's lacking for me is simply being fun. It doesn't excel in any area except for having pretty attacks. And I hate that knockback in Solar Flare. I've never made a Super Strength type of character (and probably won't in the near future) so this is my first toon having that Foot Stomp attack. I was looking forward to it but that knockback is simply annoying. Sure it has its uses but I can't use it during Hover either (which I thought fits PB's Aerial-combat). So all in all, I feel the design is poor and this is very subjective of course.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
If certain things are just flat out broken/un-fun/stupid, they should be changed. The dev have broken cottage rule before and they will and should if there are things that just need to be changed.
In the case of Bolt's recharge (as one of my suggestions), it's not really changing "cottage rule". Because if this is the case, then most of Dominator's Assault sets all violated "cottage rule" when they buffed them with more recharge, higher base damage. I simply call it "balancing". |
The cottage rule essentially states that you cannot change what a power does. Energize was changed from conserve power, the most radical power overhaul we've seen. This added a heal and a +regen buff, but left the endurance discount intact. The cottage rule is why the discount remains.
The devs will not change the basic purpose of a power. They can add more utility, change duration, recharge, and damage values. But they won't change what a power does.
I think the quote that coined the phrase was "We won't change Build Up into something that will Build Up a Cottage."
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
The devs have not broken the cottage rule before that I am aware of. Most players simply have a misunderstanding of that the cottage rule is.
The cottage rule essentially states that you cannot change what a power does. Energize was changed from conserve power, the most radical power overhaul we've seen. This added a heal and a +regen buff, but left the endurance discount intact. The cottage rule is why the discount remains. The devs will not change the basic purpose of a power. They can add more utility, change duration, recharge, and damage values. But they won't change what a power does. I think the quote that coined the phrase was "We won't change Build Up into something that will Build Up a Cottage." |
What I was trying to explain to somebody else is that changing recharge on Bolt doesn't change the cottage rule and that if there is enough evidence that something needs to be changed, the dev should.
The only power I can think of that got totally changed is SoA's Patron Mace Mastery. It used to have Focused Accuracy but due to many complaints on the fact that SoA can already take two Tactics from secondary and power tool, one more Focused Accuracy doesn't really do anything. The dev eventually changed it to Shatter Armor. Not sure if this is a good cottage rule change (as the change was made before it hits Live) but that change is GOLDEN!!!!!!! It makes me love my Bane 5x more.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
You know what, I think you are right. I am still trying to think of any power that they simply change it to something else completely different.
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Another example is Telekinesis from Mind Control. It used to grant a targeted player Flight so long as they were in range. Now it's an auto-hit AoE hold with a Repel effect.
The best example of the Cottage Rule being broken (and this is kind of a technicality, because the Cottage Rule didn't exist when they did this) was the early changes to Gravity Control. It used to have a power called "Fold Space", identical to Assemble the Team. They removed Fold Space, reworked the set, added the pet and moved things around.
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I heard Gravity control was a huge mess when they first designed. I was told one of the gravity powers used to phase out everything? Blah, I still don't like Dimension Shift but that's another topic.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
The problem with your suggestion is that, simply, the actual base damage over time wouldn't change. Peacebringers have a .85 damage scalar on their ranged attacks. While the individual attacks might hit harder, they still wouldn't hit as hard as most any other ranged attack on other archetypes, AND you lose the benefit of rapid firing procs that can bring the performance of ranged attacks to acceptable levels.
All you're doing is tweaking things so the damage is delivered in bigger but slower chunks, and that's not acceptable.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Funny enough, I have never actually used Q flight as a panic power. I've played my PB for a little over a year and the only times I've used Q flight is if I want to zip past rikti drones (for other mobs I just use superspeed/stealth and run past them). For taking the alpha I just drop into dwarf form and teleport to the first soon to be dead mob. Tho I built my PB for pseudo tanking so alpha's arent much of a concern.