My PB often teamed with two different teams of two controllers and mostly used squid form. When I pugged outside of those teams I ended up using Dwarf and human form more often because of the KB.
At least Tri-form allows me to do that. However, as it stands, too much KB in khelds and it would be nice if it were changed to KD.
That and some other reason for a team to pick a Kheld.
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Originally Posted by AlienOne
You say that, but I don't believe you are referring to powers like Dark Nova Blast, Bright Nova Blast, Dark Detonation, and Luminous Detonation, which can't be "controlled."
You hit a foe with it, and it explodes, sending people everywhere in all directions. You can't NOT use the nova blasts if you're a tri-form, and you can't NOT use the detonations if you're a human-only build, so... While I get what you're saying, it really doesn't hold true for the vast majority of Kheldians out there, regardless if we assumed all of them "try" to "direct" their KB. When there isn't a controller on the team to lock them down, mobs are going to scatter with Kheldians, whether anyone wants to admit to it or not. "Alien" |
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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If that change were made, we'd have a uncountable number of people rushing to play Khelds, because that irritation for teams would then become a huge "bonus" in a lot of team perceptions....|
Originally Posted by newchemicals
However, as it stands, too much KB in khelds and it would be nice if it were changed to KD.
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But, that'll never change. Nice thought, though!
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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And multiple others who can actually play with the KB being disgusted with the nerf... because, yes, that is what it would be.|
Originally Posted by AlienOne
If that change were made, we'd have a uncountable number of people rushing to play Khelds, because that irritation for teams would then become a huge "bonus" in a lot of team perceptions....
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And in response to your prior post? Yes, you *can* control how much scatter there is. As mentioned, work from the close edge to the far so they stay bunched up, or if you've got vertical room, straight up so they're knocked flat down. It's not a difficult skill to master, despite so few seeming to bother to learn to do so.
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How do you direct something that knocks everything in different directions? Honest question. The only way I can see to control Solar Flare's KB is to target it around mobs who are all facing the same direction.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
People don't seem to mind mine (other than the "ZOMG KB IZ EBIL KILLITKILLITKILLIT!" folks who will never be happy with it.)
Then again, I direct mine as opposed to "Jump into the middle of the mob, next to the tank, and scatter stuff everywhere." |
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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They've already explained it thoroughly, didn't you see?|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
How do you direct something that knocks everything in different directions? Honest question. The only way I can see to control Solar Flare's KB is to target it around mobs who are all facing the same direction.
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All 'ya gotta do is carefully position yourself and specifically choose which mob member you're going to hit in the midst of the mayhem that is the rest of your team, and hope he's not down by the time you fire that carefully placed shot.
See? Easy!
LoL.
I don't know about you guys, but I play at such a fast pace (both solo and on teams), that strategies like that are just laughable--at least to me. By the time it takes a Kheld in Nova form on my team to fly around to a "good position", the rest of the team and myself have taken all but the bosses down--not to mention running back outside of the middle of a group to "position" yourself for a well-placed shot is a waste of time (in my mind)... You have to run in there for a Mire anyway (from a Warshade's standpoint)--regardless of whether or not you're human-only, bi-form, or tri-form--so, why all the running around when you could have the mob down in the same amount of time it takes you to "place" your shots?
I'm happy for you guys, though. To each his own. Whatever works! I've always been a huge proponent of individual playstyles...
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
I want to know how you guys can even play a Peacebringer. 
I made one and got a headache from the constant highpitched noise going on.
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I applaud you EG for your suggestions. Something needs to be done about PBs, but not having as much experience with them as others (most even), I cannot really say much to your ideas. But here are my thoughts anyway.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
OK we all know Warshades are better than Peacebringers late game, if anyone agrees, we'll argue it out. But better to just get to the idea.
..... The blast changes are mostly lifted from similar changes done to Dominators to great effect. Peacebringers don't have the same damage buffing ability that Warshades do, hence the small buff to base damage to go along with the blast changes. The Solar Flare change maintains the KB that some folks enjoy, but lessens the scatter a bit. Finally, the changes to Light Form and the base resist changes are to provide Peacebringers the same opportunities for mitigation in the human form that Warshades have with Eclipse. But it's a different path. The changes to Light Form make it work similar to One with the Shield and Strength of Will but without the ban on recharge enhancement. |
Gleaming Bolt : Please do something for this pathetic power. I cannot think of anything except Brawl that is as pathetic (damage-wise) as this power. I like the fast recharge, but please, PLEASE up the damage a little.
We need something to control with. Anything. I like the suggestions that have been made here to allow stacking effects. So it would be great to have PBAoE Hold to stack with the Melee Hold, or a single target Stun to stack with the AoE Stun. Anything would be good.
Heck, change solar flare to a Stun, then we could stack 2 AoE stuns.
Also, I really like the idea of Changing Light Form to EG's suggestions. But I wonder if that would make Human-Form just too good. I personally prefer Human form only, so I am biased. Others who prefer Tri-Form may not agree with the buff to Lightform.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Bunch of people in this thread misunderstand how powers like Luminous Detonation and Solar Flare work.
They DO NOT KB in all directions away from the target.
They KB away from the CASTER.
If you fire Luminous Detonation at a group FROM RANGE they all (or most of them) get knocked AWAY FROM YOU. NOT away from the main target.
If you hit Solar Flare while on the EDGE of a group all the mobs go flying in ONE direction AWAY from you.
If you hit either of these powers WHILE STANDING IN THE MIDDLE OF A GROUP then they will send mobs flying in all directions---AWAY FROM YOU.
ALL KB powers can be controlled. You just have to stand in the right place.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
As for the OP:
I do agree that PBs need to be improved a bit. But I dislike most of your suggestions.
I wouldn't mind the attacks being buffed a little.
We definitely don't need permanent mez protection.
Light Form doesn't need to be changed.
An improved version of Build Up would be good.
An improvement of some kind to Photon Seekers would be good, BUT...I do want to point out that you can do some pretty great damage with Photon Seekers if you pack a herd tightly enough.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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How long does it take to find the EDIT for clarification: NEAR edge of a mob? We're not talking about the absolute min/maxed optimal target here, we're talking about selecting your initial target on the edge verses the middle. Are you saying you just hit tab and fire randomly? I find that hard to believe, given that it comes from an obviously experienced player such as yourself.|
Originally Posted by AlienOne
I don't know about you guys, but I play at such a fast pace (both solo and on teams), that strategies like that are just laughable--at least to me. By the time it takes a Kheld in Nova form on my team to fly around to a "good position", the rest of the team and myself have taken all but the bosses down--not to mention running back outside of the middle of a group to "position" yourself for a well-placed shot is a waste of time (in my mind)... You have to run in there for a Mire anyway (from a Warshade's standpoint)--regardless of whether or not you're human-only, bi-form, or tri-form--so, why all the running around when you could have the mob down in the same amount of time it takes you to "place" your shots?
I'm happy for you guys, though. To each his own. Whatever works! I've always been a huge proponent of individual playstyles... "Alien" |
And how hard is it to press w for a half second longer and end up in the air over the mob? If your team is steamrolling so fast that you need to fire off a shot as you enter the room or else risk not contributing to the overall damage then the only thing you're going to be knocking back is corpses, so knockback's not really an issue, is it?
With solar flare, you don't even need to stop moving forward to hit it. Just put a random target on follow and watch the screen as you run in. When you reach the EDIT: near edge of the mob, hit solar flare. The power will root you as it fires, and then you can continue to your target - which will likely be on his butt next to or just past the tanker - and continue. See? You've just controlled the knockback on one of those "uncontrollable" 360 degree knockback powers.
EDIT - Here's a handy bind that - provided you hit tab to select your target at the start of a battle - will always select a target at the edge of a mob:
/bind tab "target_custom_next alive quantum$$target_custom_next alive void$$target_custom_next alive cyst$$target_enemy_near"
It still targets voids, quantums and cysts like normal, so the point should be made that they could appear anywhere in a spawn. However, if one of those is in the spawn, you're going to be opening with a heavy-hitting single target attack like Incandescent Strike anyway, and your strategy will likely not involve any kb powers at all.
In spawns where there's no special baddies, however, this will select the target nearest you, which means - if you hit tab at the beginning of the fight, the mob you're targeting will be at the EDIT - near edge of the mob. The odds are pretty good that the next one you target will also be at the edge of the mob, given that you've knocked them back. If not, all you have to do is pay attention to where you are to determine whether or not to cycle that kb power. Fast enough?
When you're on your human form warshade, I know darned well you need to pick your target wisely for gravitic emanation, and you're style's not too fast for that, is it? Your guide talks about Gravitic Emanation thusly:
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Gravitic Emanation: Although I don't particularly care for this power personally, it can definitely be a HUGE bonus to you while soloing, as the length of time you can keep larger mobs stunned is really good, while you're causing carnage in human form without fear of getting taken down. It's a good opening attack, as long as it doesn't scatter everyone too far apart from eachother for pulling off a "capped" Eclipse. Personally, if I were to use it in an attack sequence, I'd want to run in and pull off my Eclipse FIRST, hit Gravity Well on a minion, hit Sunless Mire, pop Unchain Essence (mass stun), raise a pet if I need to, backpedal and hit Gravitic Emination's cone attack, and run back in to finish everyone off. You won't be able to pull off an unchain essence on every mob, if you're running at the "speedster" pace I usually do, but you should be able to pull it off every other mob, if you've got the global recharge for it. That said, on the 2nd mob, you'd probably only need to open up with a Sunless Mire and/or Gravitic Emination, then fall back into your usual attack chain, depending on your playstyle, or as the situation warrants. I've worked this power in to several of my builds in this guide. |
Out of curiosity, you seem to love Unchain Essence, which also does knockback. I didn't notice any particular advice for using it; do you just hit it at random? Doesn't that scatter the mob just as bad? Or is it all good because they're stunned? EDIT - Or dead. Duh, Joe.
In any case, watch this. If I insert Solar Flare in place of Gravitic Emanation in the bolded part above, I get the same advice:
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| backpedal and hit Solar Flare's cone attack |
I've got nothing against knockdown. I love knockdown. If they changed all knockback attacks to knockdown, I'd be just giddy. But since that doesn't seem to be in the cards at any point in the near or distant future, I'm content to learn how to use the mitigation tools that I'm stuck with to maximum effectiveness.
But spreading disinformation like
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You say that, but I don't believe you are referring to powers like Dark Nova Blast, Bright Nova Blast, Dark Detonation, and Luminous Detonation, which can't be "controlled." You hit a foe with it, and it explodes, sending people everywhere in all directions. |
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They've already explained it thoroughly, didn't you see? All 'ya gotta do is carefully position yourself and specifically choose which mob member you're going to hit in the midst of the mayhem that is the rest of your team, and hope he's not down by the time you fire that carefully placed shot. See? Easy! |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
As I've said before a few times I love my peacebringer as is. Also I really like KB, nothing makes me feel more super than to [Radiant Strike] someone 15-20 ft away. Maybe one main reason is the only other char I've played for any length was my previous 50 before my peacebringer and he was a energy defender. I have been using KB the whole time I've played CoH, so I already placed my KB pretty well. I almost never have someone on a team tell me to ease up on the KB but if they were too then they may as well kick me I guess, hehe.
I do respect other peoples play-style and try to fit in as the best player/team member I can be, but quite a few of my powers do KB. It usually isnt a problem when ur on a good team where ur running throu spawns fast anyway. Mainly I try to not KB the melee guys target or anchor and anyone else is fair game. Also we really need to not tell people to quit the game and not be so negative towards each other.
EDIT: Forget that last sentence, wrong thread sorry.
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Whoa there, fellow Kheld. Who said anything about quitting the game?
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Originally Posted by Jot
Also we really need to not tell people to quit the game and not be so negative towards each other.
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The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Sorry, the part about telling people to quit wasnt even in this thread. Lol, sometimes I dont know what I'm talkin about. I apologize, I was mixed up on threads. But the rest still stands.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Whoa there, fellow Kheld. Who said anything about quitting the game?
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I'm not trying to turn this into a KB debate. As I said, the main reason I do not suggest removing ANY KB from any power is because some people like KB. KB is a feature of Peacebringers. However, much one might not agree with that, that's how it is. I don't suspect this will change because people will complain.
I don't like how KB is implemented in this game. But that's not critical to this issue and it's not necessary to bring PBs in line with Warshades. The key issue is that at late game Warshades both have more damage and possibly more survivability with less downsides. That's not fair and it needs to be corrected.
I doubt that can be done without annoying someone's particular playstyle, but the KB thing is too critical for some folks.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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... until they hit a *single* hard target. Their buffs, unless they're already running, drop badly as does their support firepower. That's the Warshade's Achilles heel. |
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I don't like how KB is implemented in this game. But that's not critical to this issue and it's not necessary to bring PBs in line with Warshades. The key issue is that at late game Warshades both have more damage and possibly more survivability with less downsides. That's not fair and it needs to be corrected. |
Peacebringers, meanwhile, will *always* have X amount of +HP, of healing, of buffs from build up and so forth. This (pre-I13, since post-I13 PVP is comparatively dead) is why you almost never saw Warshades in PVP - and yet Peacebringers did hold their own rather well. No need to run around trying to buff from other things, hope you can get a few moments to kill a mob, etc. Yes, a few tried - Warshades would tend to try to hunt Masterminds - but in general, a Peacebringer was more suitable. (And yes, I PVPed with both, and the Peacebringer worked better from COV release to I13. And after, if you can deal with the PVP changes.)
A Warshade is going to buff the number of enemies in the mission when they run it - likely without buffing level. A Peacebringer is going to do the opposite, taking fewer but tougher opponents. (And the "fewer" is not necessarily a given.)
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no, he doesn't, really. You don't run into the middle of a fresh mob with no Eclipse up unless youre on a team. solo you would LEAD with Grav Em so the mobs are stunned and kbd and cant hit you until many seconds after you use Eclipse and Mire.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Even though you don't particularly like Gravitic Emanation (because of the knockback?), you offer up advice on how to use it effectively.
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that's a big duh.
otherwise you could either (bad luck) get killed before Eclipse goes off or (not quite as bad luck) get Mezzed after Eclipse is up but before you Mire or start doing damage.
Grav Em is for leading off when you don't have Eclipse or for grouping a spread out mob regardless.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
How long does it take to find the edge of a mob? We're not talking about the absolute min/maxed optimal target here, we're talking about selecting your initial target on the edge verses the middle. Are you saying you just hit tab and fire randomly? I find that hard to believe, given that it comes from an obviously experienced player such as yourself.
And how hard is it to press w for a half second longer and end up in the air over the mob? If your team is steamrolling so fast that you need to fire off a shot as you enter the room or else risk not contributing to the overall damage then the only thing you're going to be knocking back is corpses, so knockback's not really an issue, is it? |
While I know we agree on most of this, I just want to emphasize that it Does Not matter whether you target an enemy near the edge or not.
KB is Always away from the Caster. The graphics of LD may look radial but the effects are coming from You not your primary target.
You can target an enemy near the back (or where you should, in the center, to hit the most mobs) and they will still Always go Away from you (unless someone Else used a KB power while facing the other direction).
It is if you get too Close that the angle starts to get wide.
This is very easy to test.
No disagreement on how SF works, though. How hard can it be to hit it at the edge instead of in the middle unless there's -KB involved or everythings gonna die in the stomp?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Do people not make the same complaints about Arachnos Soldiers? If not then maybe it's not just the KB.|
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
I'm not trying to turn this into a KB debate. As I said, the main reason I do not suggest removing ANY KB from any power is because some people like KB. KB is a feature of Peacebringers. However, much one might not agree with that, that's how it is. I don't suspect this will change because people will complain.
I don't like how KB is implemented in this game. But that's not critical to this issue and it's not necessary to bring PBs in line with Warshades. The key issue is that at late game Warshades both have more damage and possibly more survivability with less downsides. That's not fair and it needs to be corrected. I doubt that can be done without annoying someone's particular playstyle, but the KB thing is too critical for some folks. |
I think the versatile, form switching toon is not for everyone. I bet if they had toggle mez protection in the human form a lot more people would play them regardless of the KB issue.
But I don't think they need that, personally. I like Dwarf as mez protection now that it works as a Break Free.
I would say Dwarf is pretty much mandatory, though moreso on a WS than a PB because of Mire and Lightform.
But I would like to hear more of what you mean about "how KB is implemented", maybe in a PM if you don't want it here? or if you can link me to something you've already written?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
and I just reread the OP did you really mean remove the -end -rec penalty but Leave the -health?
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
While I know we agree on most of this, I just want to emphasize that it Does Not matter whether you target an enemy near the edge or not.
KB is Always away from the Caster. The graphics of LD may look radial but the effects are coming from You not your primary target. You can target an enemy near the back (or where you should, in the center, to hit the most mobs) and they will still Always go Away from you (unless someone Else used a KB power while facing the other direction). It is if you get too Close that the angle starts to get wide. This is very easy to test. No disagreement on how SF works, though. How hard can it be to hit it at the edge instead of in the middle unless there's -KB involved or everythings gonna die in the stomp? |
Drat. I meant to edit one more time to clarify. Yes. When I was talking about the edge of the mob, I made the stupid mistake of assuming the near edge (Which is exactly what the target enemy near will get you) - I edited that post six ways from Sunday, and that clarification slipped through the cracks. Thanks for catching that.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
The real key for controlling knockback is to look where they're gonna be KBd to. Aim for corners and walls. It's really not that hard and doesn't take time at all once you get used to it.
And honestly, I've never seen anywhere near the level of anti KB animosity ingame as I have on the boards.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Why not give Buildup the Fiery Embrace treatment, but with Energy damage?
It's a nice all-around buff that doesn't have to tweak every single power.
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I posted the same in another thread. I really think this is the best option.
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Originally Posted by Gehnen
Why not give Buildup the Fiery Embrace treatment, but with Energy damage?
It's a nice all-around buff that doesn't have to tweak every single power. |
Be well, people of CoH.
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Yes. The changes I suggest allow almost permanent mez protection. Castle isn't going to allow that without some crash. I considered saying reduce the crash to 50% health, but that would mean their reconstruction clone could cure them back to full immediately. As it is, it provides a balance that should make dwarf still an easier better bet for mez protection and defense (with the loss of offense).
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Originally Posted by Wavicle
and I just reread the OP did you really mean remove the -end -rec penalty but Leave the -health?
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The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
And make the damn thing uninteruptible! When I toggle Dwarf form on to break mez, I don't expect to fail thanks to a second mez hit, thank you very much!
Hang on, I'll see if I can dig up a quote.
EDIT - just in case anyone took the part about the sashes seriously, I was being hyperbolic. But the issue was indeed pretty low on the list (if I'm remembering correctly)
EDIT (The Sequel) - Bah. I think that entire thread was purged. That, or my search-fu is weak. That, or my memory is wrong. Take your pick.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies