The Ultimate fix for stalkers.
I've seen it worked out before and as I recall the break-even point (at least ignoring AoE differentials) is around 5 or 6 teammates.
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Then you set the damage scale to 1 (since it won't change for either AT), and apply crit rate and AT mods. Since Stalkers have a "1.0" modifier (meaning 55.61 damage for a scale 1 attack at level 50) and the crit rate is multiplicative, a 3% increase in the crit rate simply adds 0.03 to the final number.
1.125 (scrapper AT mod) * 1.1 (scrapper crit rate, Lt+) = 1.2375
1.125 * 1.075 (nominal rate used when balancing against brutes*) = 1.209375
1.125 * 1.05 (minion crit rate) = 1.18125
1.0 (stalker AT mod) * 1.1 (stalker crit rate, 0 teammates) = 1.1
1.0 * 1.13 (1 teammate) = 1.13
...
1.0 * 1.19 (3 teammates) = 1.19
...
1.0 * 1.25 (5 teammates) = 1.25
So, 5 teammates to pass Scrappers over time; 4 teammates puts them at 1.22, which is above the 7.5% nominal rate.
Yes, this is a vast simplification - it ignores the guaranteed criticals and makes assumptions about attack chains that may not be true (see: Claws, Dual Blades - Follow Up/Blinding Feint don't even exist for the Stalker version; Dark Melee w/Soul Drain vs BU; using Assassin's Strike from hidden status). It also doesn't include the use of damage auras or Against All Odds (which Stalkers don't get), Scrappers having a higher +dam modifier in their version of BU providing them a higher overall damage buff over the course of a mission, and a whole host of other issues that slant things even farther towards Scrappers doing more damage.
At best, I'd call the simplification a break-even in favor of Stalkers - it ignores too many things that help Scrappers to call it better for them.
* - Castle quoted that crit rate in GR beta when he mentioned the desired Fury level for Brutes while tweaking the decay rate, but since it was in beta the post is inaccessible.
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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I still think the way to "fix" Stalkers is to buff their single-target damage to higher than a Scrapper's, while leaving AoE damage at its current state (or even nerfing it by a very small amount to compensate for the ST buffs). They're supposed to be single-target specialists, and yet Scrappers' ST attacks outperform those of a Stalker right out of the gate, and Brutes outperform them after just a few seconds in combat.
Of course, the last time I suggested this, I was all but called an idiot and told I didn't understand how the game worked. Mileages and variations and what-not.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
I still think the way to "fix" Stalkers is to buff their single-target damage to higher than a Scrapper's, while leaving AoE damage at its current state (or even nerfing it by a very small amount to compensate for the ST buffs). They're supposed to be single-target specialists, and yet Scrappers' ST attacks outperform those of a Stalker right out of the gate, and Brutes outperform them after just a few seconds in combat.
Of course, the last time I suggested this, I was all but called an idiot and told I didn't understand how the game worked. Mileages and variations and what-not. |
I can only assume that the people that complained were talking about how much more valuable AoE damage is than single-target: for comparison, the old Energy Transfer (which was nerfed for having DPA that's too high - scale 4.56 in a 1 sec animation - it was more than double the next highest DPA melee attack) can be surpassed by Dark Obliteration with 6 targets (scale 0.9 in a 1 sec animation * 6 targets), which isn't all that hard to arrange. Currently, hitting 3 targets with Dark Obliteration will provide more overall DPA than any single-target attack.
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
The scrapper/brute/tanker balance issue was, IMO, a simpler concern.
The last time they tweaked stalkers, it is true they increased the damage mod. They also added an AoE debuff/control to AS, made Hide come back after eight seconds instead of ten, removed the end cost from the Hide toggle altogether, and altered how stalker criticals worked in an intriguing way. If they ever tweak stalkers again, I hope its more stuff like the last four, rather than the first one. The devs have showed a willingness and ability to do interesting things. If a numbers tweak was all they were looking at, I don't think the devs would be delaying it so much. |
I could be hoping for too much, but the man does some very interesting things (or his team). The change to Fiery Embrace, personally, is genius. I only ever argued for it getting a longer buff duration to all damage. Making it add fire damage to all your attacks is far more interesting than that and I love it.
I hope he does the same with Stalkers. If you want a straight up "dash in there and bash them over the head!" you play a Scrapper. I want and like that there is more to Stalkers, and would like to see him play with that more. Or just expand on how Stalkers can do that.
I'm not going to pass over a straight damage buff to Stalker's base (if that's not unbalancing), but I would say that is the less interesting choice. I prefer interesting choices.
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I'm inclined to believe Castle thinks it's more complicated (or warrants more design thought) than a simple numbers tweak, since he didn't think he had time for it before GR. That suggests he wanted to go for something more, to me.
I could be hoping for too much, but the man does some very interesting things (or his team). The change to Fiery Embrace, personally, is genius. I only ever argued for it getting a longer buff duration to all damage. Making it add fire damage to all your attacks is far more interesting than that and I love it. I hope he does the same with Stalkers. If you want a straight up "dash in there and bash them over the head!" you play a Scrapper. I want and like that there is more to Stalkers, and would like to see him play with that more. Or just expand on how Stalkers can do that. I'm not going to pass over a straight damage buff to Stalker's base (if that's not unbalancing), but I would say that is the less interesting choice. I prefer interesting choices. |
+DMG, +ToHit, an additional 20-25% DoT of Toxic (or possibly Toxic for straight up S/L sets, an additional DoT of the other exotic damage type for things like ELM, EM, DM, KM, ect) could be an interresting way to do things.
It'd be like coating the weapons (fists, gloves, hitting chi points) with poison (or whatever people want to RP it as).
BU staying BU, but with that new mechanic added on top of it would be awesome.
But either way, it gives the only thing I see Stalkers needing more of! DAMAGE!
I haven't gotten around to BU + AS on a lvl 40 Fake Nemesis, HOWEVER, I did check out a Call to Justice (+40% DMG) + AS on a level 40 Fake Nemesis (with my Level 50 Stalker).
I had to follow up with an additional attack to take him down.
Doing that makes me go "Where's my damage!?" This is a single target nuke! Let's nuke those pesky lvl 40's (when we're level 50 of course).
Another idea is to have Placate give a +Def (possibly unenhancable) component, that way when you do Placate, you're less likely to get interrupted on a follow up AS. Make it +DEF for 5 seconds.
That leaves a Placate + AS a chance better chance to get through, but still be interruptable.
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Proliferating Energy Melee to Scrappers would probably be easier if the set was derived from the Stalker version, even though it would mean calculating the attacks that were replaced by Assassin Strike and Placate since they did not receive such treatment. Since the critical values and effects are already present in Barrage, Energy Punch, Bone Smasher, Energy Transfer and Total Focus all that's needed is to remove the Critical if Held/Slept flag and add critical values and effects for Stun and Whirling Hands. |
My Archery/Devices Blaster isn't a ninja and he uses caltrops. They're not just OMGNINJAGEAR. They're a viable form of physical deterrent in-game and in real life. They're a gadget of sorts, not a Shinobi thing. |
Which says nothing about anyone being wrong. It's more a comment about always having to have the last word...kind of like now. Honestly, I don't have the time to be bothered with responding to every nitpick (like being wrong about the stun with Energy Transfer or the stun chances Siolfir pointed out) and it's even more useless when I have to keep repeating myself for people like yourself.
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One last go...yes, I did read your post. You're just not bothering to understand that removing one crit value to add another could be just as easy or hard as removing one gauntlet value to add a crit value. What you're not bothering to get is, we don't know what's easier but you seem to think you do.
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A generalized statement. The characters that tend to use caltrops are ninja-esque or gadget-users (See Tsoo or Knives of Artemis) and not all characters are either. Caltrops is far more specific a concept than Hide or Domination which are currently inherent or Fitness which will be inherent.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Then by all means, please excuse yourself from this thread as you have not only needed continuous correction, but have also taken every post against you as a personal attack, responding with very agitated remarks and unnecessary snark.
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And PS: AFAIK, the only corrections addressed to me were the couple from Siolfir which I concede to. You haven't been 100% accurate with your info either so why not excuse yourself?
Please see the word 'probably' in the last post. I made what's called an inference; an inference is an educated guess based on logic and observation of patterns. |
-You're arguing that it'd be easier to proliferate Stalker EM to Scrappers.
-I say it could be just as easy to proliferate from the other melees.
-You press the issue of crit values, still claiming it could be easier.
-I say we don't know that.
-You admit you're only guessing.
Hurray for closure. We basically end up with where I started from, FYI.
Hide's not inherent, but it should be if you ask me. Caltrops are viable for anyone who wants someone to... not walk somewhere. In media, it's generally more oriented to ninja/Batman type characters, but anyone can use them as their purpose is universal. A good modern example would be police forces/special forces groups that use them in place of tire spike strips. |
None of that matters. So what if Batman uses Caltrops? What if my character is *more* modern than Batman? We've got hovering assault turrets, teleporation grids and extra-dimensional technology. Who's to say my character hasn't advanced beyond archaic caltrops? Or relying on magic or mutant powers?
Beyond that, there are just characters that do not use gadgets. They rely on their powers. Caltrops are gadgets and not everyone is a gadget user. If the use of gadgets weren't an issue, people wouldn't complain about the tricorder from the medicine pool.
Conceptually, no, caltrops is not general enough to fit as an inherent. In a pool, perhaps.
Conceptually, no, caltrops is not general enough to fit as an inherent. In a pool, perhaps.
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I just prefer to look at the OP as I do a good political cartoon. The interesting meaning to me is that a few, big AoE, debuff/control powers would go a long way for the AT.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
I've got no reason to excuse myself as I'm not going anywhere. I can stop responding to you, though. I'm beginning to hate Candlestick for being right about the pissing match, though. And he probably won't share any of his popcorn either.
And PS: AFAIK, the only corrections addressed to me were the couple from Siolfir which I concede to. You haven't been 100% accurate with your info either so why not excuse yourself? |
Just so you understand where we've treaded:
-You're arguing that it'd be easier to proliferate Stalker EM to Scrappers. -I say it could be just as easy to proliferate from the other melees. -You press the issue of crit values, still claiming it could be easier. -I say we don't know that. -You admit you're only guessing. Hurray for closure. We basically end up with where I started from, FYI. |
And this is what I mean by needing to have the last word. But I'll continue to discuss.
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None of that matters. So what if Batman uses Caltrops? What if my character is *more* modern than Batman? We've got hovering assault turrets, teleporation grids and extra-dimensional technology. Who's to say my character hasn't advanced beyond archaic caltrops? Or relying on magic or mutant powers?
Beyond that, there are just characters that do not use gadgets. They rely on their powers. Caltrops are gadgets and not everyone is a gadget user. If the use of gadgets weren't an issue, people wouldn't complain about the tricorder from the medicine pool. |
Conceptually, no, caltrops is not general enough to fit as an inherent. In a pool, perhaps.
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I'm going to cut myself off here, because your reply to this post will be filled with your own hubris, a lot of attitude, and something belittling me and quite honestly, you've taken replies to your posts so personally I think you may be in dire need of some sort of intervention to the way you interpret people's responses.
Cheers.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
I personally think it'd be the logical choice to start from the point closer to the finish line rather than further away.... I made what's called an inference; an inference is an educated guess based on logic and observation of patterns. |
The OP was a joke, right? I thought it was joke (and probably a troll). I mean I love Caltrops and it probably would be huge boon if all Stalkers had it, but concept-wise it is kind of ham-handed. I just prefer to look at the OP as I do a good political cartoon. The interesting meaning to me is that a few, big AoE, debuff/control powers would go a long way for the AT. |
Just making sure we're clear on that. But if I were making an educated guess based on logic and observation of patterns, I'd say if the devs proliferate EM, they're not going to do a half-***ed job and take the road that takes the least use of a calculator. They're just going to take the animation, damage, recharge times, etc and tweek it till it's Scrapper EM. Afterall, they did it for Brute Claws which could have been an easy cut/paste job.
I figured it was after the first couple of pages, but I was just trying to divert my attention so I wouldn't catch myself quoting and responding to every statement I had something to say about. Lol and there's a lot I want to say too but I'm controlling that urge. |
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But seriously, Stalker DBs does have some little features that make it kinda special...even if one of them is kinda a mistake (everyone should stick procs in Stalker Ablating...it's interesting).
Caltrops, really?
How to make stalkers better:
1. Reduce the AT of assassin strike and add a 25% to terrorize group in PVE.
2. Reduce the time it take to hide after a confrontation.
3. Increase HP (Stalkers are not Corruptors) because Dull the pain does not increase HP when a stalker is HP are already at 1606 or increase Damage Resistance for a short period when Dull the pain is activated.
4. Increase AS Damage.
I think this would make stalkers better over all.
if stalkers inherent abilities are found to be weaker for the type of game that they're in, then the best bet is to increase those. make it harder for critters to see you hidden, and/or easier to placate them. that's the kind of buff thats going to see people dusting off their stalkers in numbers.
Outside of AoEs, are you sure? Even including AoEs, if you use a good stalker AoE set, it might not be as cut and dry as you make it. Assassin's Strike and guaranteed crits from hide and a higher AoE crit rate from hide are not insignificant.
I am not saying that stalkers out damage scrappers solo. I am saying it is not self-evident nor assured that scrappers out damage stalkers. I am also saying that it does not matter either way. Even if it was cut and dry that stalkers beat out scrappers, even if we raise the stalker damage mod to something like 1.25, stalkers will still be scoffed at by many. Give them AoE buffs, debuffs, and controls, and they will be much more appreciated. |
for the people looking for AoE, and will accept nothing less, yes, aside from maybe spines, they will still scoff at stalkers. BUT, stalkers will have a clearly defined role, assassination/single target specialists, AND be the best at it. thats pretty worthwhile.
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The damage output of stalkers looks very good to me. The only reason I would think of scrappers or brutes as outdoing stalkers is due to AoE damage on top of aggro control. There is probably room to further increase stalker damage, but my preference lies in increasing them in other ways, as I have mentioned. |
I love the demoralize effect personally, but it needs to be more consistent and give the Stalker more of that scrapp-trolling feel. This would offset the defensive losses that stalkers suffered by having Hide replace one of their defense powers. Making the effect last longer and/or tailored to the defense set (below I reposted one of your proposals in this thread) would be a very interesting way to improve Stalker team functionality.
DA - Premonition of Doom - 30' radius, 16 target, -10% to-hit debuff for 8 seconds, -40% perception for 8 seconds, does not alert enemies and does not break stealth, 40 second recharge, 1 to 2 second cast time. (accepts to-hit debuff and accurate to-hit debuff sets) ElA - Unseen Leech - 30' radius, 16 target, -15 end, 60% chance of -100% recovery for 8 seconds, does not alert enemies and does not break stealth, 60 second recharge, 1 to 2 second cast time. (accepts end mod sets) EnA - Kinetic Trip - 30' radius, 16 target, -10 end, 80% chance of 0.67 KB, 50% chance of 5 second placate, 4 second delay and then another 80% chance of 0.67 KB, does not break stealth, 60 second recharge, 1.5 to 2.5 second cast time. (accepts end mod and KB sets). Nin - Poison Blossoms, 30' radius, 16 target, -12% damage, -40% move speed, -30% recharge for 10 seconds, does not alert enemies and does not break stealth, 60 second recharge, 1 to 2 second cast time. (accepts slow sets) Reg - Glory for All - 30' radius ally buff, +50% regen, +20% recovery, +50% stun resistance for 30 seconds, 1.5 to 2.5 second cast time, recharge 120 seconds. (accepts healing and end mod sets) SR - Who, Where, Huh? - pet summon. You are so agile, it seems like there are many of you. 3 or 4 second cast time. Summons 3 indestructible pets (that can be walked through, like Singularity), with a 10 second duration. Each pet has a 10 foot taunt aura that hits up to 5 people. The pets have one brawl attack that deals no (or very low) damage. Does not break stealth for the stalker, 90 second recharge. (accepts pet recharge sets) WP - We Shall Overcome - 30' radius ally buff, +10% to hit, +30% damage, +15% resist to all for 20 seconds, 1.5 to 2.5 second cast time, recharge 120 seconds. (accepts to-hit buff and resist sets) |
They would need to be modified somewhat from the click versions, but overall, the flavor they would add and the team effect would be excellent.
I would probably change Ninjitsu to -Dmg and -Res, and make SR have a -Speed -Rech debuff (Call it "dizziness" because the foes are having trouble focusing due to your insanely quick reflexes). Have each Aura basically proc the debuff (50% every 5 seconds. For the Ally Buffs, just reduce the effect by an appropriate amount that makes sense for a constant buff effect.
Changes I would like to see:
A) Make the Demoralize occur even if you kill the target.
B) Make Hide recharge faster based on the number of teammates
Caltrops for All ? I will say /unsigned sorry, I want more variety, not less
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Mmm...
How to get caltrops and not break cottage rules...
My thoughts would be to add it as a secondary effect to an existing secondary power set power.
For instance, there is the smoke one in Ninjutsu, why not just add besides the smoke properties that it also deployed a set of clatrops. It would make sense to me, because usually we tend to slow down when surrounded by smoke. I believe all secondary power sets have a smoke like counterpart, thus implementing the caltrop suggestion should not be an issue of which Stalkers based on their secondary power set choices could have or not.
I do like theidea of caltrops, from the aspect if I bit more than I can chew; it gives me a better chance to get out of dodge alive.
Stormy
WP for Stalkers getting some kind of dark-effect RTTC variant would be sweet. But I dunno...
Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm just not a big fan of caltrops.
My biggest beef with stalkers is how difficult it is to use Assassin strike, and how little of a reward you actually get for it. My encounter with an enemy group on a team always follows this same pattern:
#1: Try to find the boss with my mouse only to find I keep targeting the guy behind me or another member of my group in the middle of the mob.
#2: Furiously use auto-target with tab to try and find anything that con's purple or is boss ranked.
#3: Chase this thing down and try to properly position myself for AS.
#4: Re-chase this thing down after AS inexplicably fails.
#5: And again.
#6: Finally begin attack chain after successful AS, ensuring that demoralize effects were either not needed, or my team would already be dead because they were needed.
OR
#6: My stealth drops because of some aoe or cone attack that managed to nick me, preventing me from doing AS since I will now be targeted by some enemies.
Which explains why it is half the time I just rush into a squad and then use Build Up + PBAoE instead of going through the above. I know AS is a high damage single target attack (though I swear I've seen Elec/Shield scrappers that can do nearly the same amount of damage to entire mobs), but it seems like so many fixes are in place that prevent Stalkers from truly being effective as single target kings.
A fix on stalkers part would be to either make AS more powerful (directly or indirectly), or remove the interrupt section so you don't fail AS while standing completely still or can preform AS on flying targets.
My personal vote is for the latter, since reliability is a sweet thing to have. The ease at which AS can be used increases when you don't have to position yourself correctly and be stationary to use. Though I doubt this will happen, since allowing AS to fly while under attack means that you can get critical hits much easier, potentially over single-target damaging.
For the former, I'm not referring to damage. I would personally like to see Demoralize receive a buff (50% increase in duration or potency would be nice), and would like Demoralize to be a side effect of all successful assassin strikes, regardless of whether or not the target lives or dies.
Any combination of the two above will suffice, too. Whether it is just more reliable (and indirectly more damage) or if demoralize is worth the positioning and failure rate.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but I'm just not a big fan of caltrops.
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#1: Try to find the boss with my mouse only to find I keep targeting the guy behind me or another member of my group in the middle of the mob. |
#2: Furiously use auto-target with tab to try and find anything that con's purple or is boss ranked. #3: Chase this thing down and try to properly position myself for AS. #4: Re-chase this thing down after AS inexplicably fails. #5: And again. #6: Finally begin attack chain after successful AS, ensuring that demoralize effects were either not needed, or my team would already be dead because they were needed. OR #6: My stealth drops because of some aoe or cone attack that managed to nick me, preventing me from doing AS since I will now be targeted by some enemies. |
You don't just walk up to stuff solo, stand next to them and queue up your melee snipe, do you? Try pretending you're on teams when solo. Or maybe try playing a blaster so you have to practice switching targets quickly.
I've learned to simply rely on 2 means of targeting: 'Target Nearest' and 'Target Next'. Doesn't sound efficient but use everything, such as movement, camera, my eyes and speed to make it all seem instantaneous. There's also binds to target specific enemies by name or rank as well as other options.
I do hate it when balancing issues become about my incompetence. Mainly because it is a completely unprovable assertion that cannot be countered by any sort of volition on my part. Being relate-able hasn't worked, so let me move this away from personal skill:
*Assassin strike will be interrupted while completely stationary for seemingly no reason, regardless of skill.
*Assassin strike is harder to use on moving and airborne targets, regardless of skill.
*Assassin stirke is harder to use while under the effect of speed boost, regardless of skill.
*Assassin strike is only useful against stronge targets. A target that dies from AS had less remaining HP than the damage AS does, reducing the meaningful damage and therefore use of AS. Skill does not change this.
*Targeting, positioning, angling the camera, and executing an assassin strike is time consuming and, by the very nature of skill being brought up, is a difficult endeavor.
*The chaotic environment of battle, especially melee combat, provides countless instances in which targeting, positioning, angling the camera, and execution can be hindered or go wrong, regardless of skill.
*Combat situations in which the stalker does not initiate the alpha strike provide a situation in which stealth can be dropped from incoming ambient damage, causing aggro and thus preventing use of AS without going through a series of steps intended solely to fend off aggro and retry AS. This is regardless of skill.
*Demoralize is only useful in two situations:
#1: Large groups of enemies of substantial threat where a to-hit debuff and fear provide damage necessary damage mitigation. If a situation where necessary damage mitigation from AS never occurs , then this lends credence to the ineffectualness of demoralize.
#2: Against very strong targets like EBs and AVs, who's high damage output would need mitigation from the to-hit debuff to keep the team alive. If a situation where necessary damage mitigation from AS never occurs, then this leads credence to the ineffectualness of demoralize.
*The defensive effects of demoralize in groups is time-sensitive, requiring that a successful AS occur quickly enough to prevent the team from sustaining too much damage. This is regardless of skill.
The myriad of difficulties in this AT's signature abilities are needless complications that provide no needed or known balancing features. The fact that skill has to be brought up as a crucial matter when attempting to achieve at best mediocrity in overall team worth indicates that this class needs to be buffed. The capability for certain players, through rigorous training, to marginally cope with the few problems that are possible to deal with is no excuse to not resolve problems and undeniably benefit every stalker player in the game. Same train of thought goes for certain primary or secondary powers aiding in some of these complications; Fix what is broken, working around what is broken doesn't fix it.
The solution to this problem is simple: Either remove these unneeded complications, or make these complications needed.
EDIT: I have searched for specific string targeting for Boss and up multiple times, and the only results I get are from guides that say you cannot set yourself to auto-target the "boss" rank of enemies. You can set certain names contained by the bosses within a particular enemy group, but setting up a system to always target the bosses and up in a group would require either a large number of binds to find every specific boss for every specific group, or to re-set your binds for targeting the bosses in the group that is on the map for every map, requiring knowledge of the names of all the bosses of all the enemy groups.
Believe me, I've already barked up that tree.
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My vote is to give ninja reflexes the power "Bouncy Ball". Then, enemies would be forced to play jacks when you use both at the same time.