City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

The Ultimate fix for stalkers.

beyeajus

By beyeajus,
Posted on: 2010-09-21 03:20 in Stalkers

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid View Post
*Assassin strike will be interrupted while completely stationary for seemingly no reason, regardless of skill.
When the game was in beta and released, I do recall similar events. I coined this off as lag though, you saw your character stop but the game had not fully registered the action. Suffice it to say, since even my two year absense I have yet to run into this problem. Unless if I'm hit by a dot effect (which I think there's an issue here as sometimes it effects you and sometimes it doesn't) the only time it interrupts is if I didn't time it properly on the move.

Quote:
*Assassin strike is harder to use on moving and airborne targets, regardless of skill.
I'd agree to a point. I think it's the timing you have that's the problem. Weeks back I was in an ITF trying to kill a minotaur who was constantly moving. It was a problem only because I was trying to activate the skill while my avatar had not come to a complete stop.

Quote:
*Assassin stirke is harder to use while under the effect of speed boost, regardless of skill.
Very true, due to the above.

Quote:
*Assassin strike is only useful against stronge targets. A target that dies from AS had less remaining HP than the damage AS does, reducing the meaningful damage and therefore use of AS. Skill does not change this.
Little bit subjective. You'd agree Sappers are a threat no? Yet they're not the strongest of Malta's mob list.

Quote:
*Demoralize
Personally, maybe I just don't pay attention to the numbers enough or something but, Demoralize seems very noneffective towards end game tasks. 53s at max difficulty barely feel it and that's besides the point of it not always executing. Would of been better if AS became a standard attack power in the event of not being hidden and always applied this affect to a slightly larger degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Playing the game takes practice. Targeting is one of them. If you're good with the mouse (or horrible with every other means of targeting) then perfect that strategy for ease of play on any character.
This is one thing that bugged me during my leap of absence of a two and a half year of utter frustration. When I came back it seems like they turned back the tab feature. It was great three years ago, you didn't need to select closest or farthest, it did primarily what you wanted it to do. Now it doesn't even properly target mobs right under Next setting. It would target mobs two blocks away while one is point blank right in front of me. I'm not sure if this was intended or a bug that went largely unnoticed but I certainly caught it going on when first stepping foot in Praetoria.

 

Posted

I've encountered the problem of failing when I am at a dead-stop. I mean, I was literally stopped and hidden while solo, answered a PM, made a comment on a channel, then resumed only by pressing assassin strike only to have it be "interrupted" somehow. This has happened to me on more than one occasion.

I suspected the "increased difficulty" will fall on deaf ears the moment some player says they have no problem with it. The objective fact is that requiring more precise timing and controls due to small windows of opportunity and range will increase the margin of error. Requiring more precision to preform a task will make the task more difficult, similar to how it is harder to hit the bullseye than it is to hit just the target. Doesn't matter if some players can pull it off.


I do agree that sappers are a threat. I, however, disagree that AS should be used on them. Being minion class, a stalker can easily two-hit them from hide with regular attacks in a shorter amount of time than it would take to line up and use assassin strike. Not from hide, three-hit them or two-hit with build up, or sometimes one hit with build up. Unless this is on high difficulties (+4), where you can essentially AS anything, and it becomes a moot point.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid View Post
I do hate it when balancing issues become about my incompetence. Mainly because it is a completely unprovable assertion that cannot be countered by any sort of volition on my part. Being relate-able hasn't worked, so let me move this away from personal skill:

*Assassin strike will be interrupted while completely stationary for seemingly no reason, regardless of skill.
*Assassin strike is harder to use on moving and airborne targets, regardless of skill.
*Assassin stirke is harder to use while under the effect of speed boost, regardless of skill.
*Assassin strike is only useful against stronge targets. A target that dies from AS had less remaining HP than the damage AS does, reducing the meaningful damage and therefore use of AS. Skill does not change this.
*Targeting, positioning, angling the camera, and executing an assassin strike is time consuming and, by the very nature of skill being brought up, is a difficult endeavor.
*The chaotic environment of battle, especially melee combat, provides countless instances in which targeting, positioning, angling the camera, and execution can be hindered or go wrong, regardless of skill.
*Combat situations in which the stalker does not initiate the alpha strike provide a situation in which stealth can be dropped from incoming ambient damage, causing aggro and thus preventing use of AS without going through a series of steps intended solely to fend off aggro and retry AS. This is regardless of skill.
*Demoralize is only useful in two situations:
#1: Large groups of enemies of substantial threat where a to-hit debuff and fear provide damage necessary damage mitigation. If a situation where necessary damage mitigation from AS never occurs , then this lends credence to the ineffectualness of demoralize.
#2: Against very strong targets like EBs and AVs, who's high damage output would need mitigation from the to-hit debuff to keep the team alive. If a situation where necessary damage mitigation from AS never occurs, then this leads credence to the ineffectualness of demoralize.
*The defensive effects of demoralize in groups is time-sensitive, requiring that a successful AS occur quickly enough to prevent the team from sustaining too much damage. This is regardless of skill.


The myriad of difficulties in this AT's signature abilities are needless complications that provide no needed or known balancing features. The fact that skill has to be brought up as a crucial matter when attempting to achieve at best mediocrity in overall team worth indicates that this class needs to be buffed. The capability for certain players, through rigorous training, to marginally cope with the few problems that are possible to deal with is no excuse to not resolve problems and undeniably benefit every stalker player in the game. Same train of thought goes for certain primary or secondary powers aiding in some of these complications; Fix what is broken, working around what is broken doesn't fix it.

The solution to this problem is simple: Either remove these unneeded complications, or make these complications needed.


EDIT: I have searched for specific string targeting for Boss and up multiple times, and the only results I get are from guides that say you cannot set yourself to auto-target the "boss" rank of enemies. You can set certain names contained by the bosses within a particular enemy group, but setting up a system to always target the bosses and up in a group would require either a large number of binds to find every specific boss for every specific group, or to re-set your binds for targeting the bosses in the group that is on the map for every map, requiring knowledge of the names of all the bosses of all the enemy groups.

Believe me, I've already barked up that tree.
lol no. Just no.

Yes, AS is harder to use on a moving target (Duh?!?!!?) but with skill and practice you can AS moving targets much easier. If people can do it in pvp, I would hope even bad players can do it in PvE.

AS is only harder to use while SB'd if you don't have experience playing at capped runspeed or with runspeed buffs. Skill and practice can easily fix that.

"*Assassin strike is only useful against stronge targets. A target that dies from AS had less remaining HP than the damage AS does, reducing the meaningful damage and therefore use of AS. Skill does not change this." -- The first part of this statement is blatantly false, AS is still an attack like any other that is meant to be used, not all troublesome targets are bosses/EBs/AVs. Doing more damage than a target's remaining HP is something that _every_ powerset and AT in this game will come across, it's not a stalker issue, further, a dead target is a dead target, whether you deal 9999 damage to make it dead or 1000 damage to make it dead either way, the target will be dead. Again with your "Skill does not change this" comment, you're wrong again, you can choose your attacks to kill things appropriatly. If a target only has a small amount of hp left you don't need to use your AS, learn to manage your attacks.

*Targeting, positioning, angling the camera, and executing an assassin strike is time consuming and, by the very nature of skill being brought up, is a difficult endeavor.
*The chaotic environment of battle, especially melee combat, provides countless instances in which targeting, positioning, angling the camera, and execution can be hindered or go wrong, regardless of skill.

^ These 2 statements are entirely subjective. Anyone can get better at doing the above, it doesn't take a rocket scientist. The statements are not exclusive to stalkers either. Just because you're bad at targeting, positioning, camera angling, using AS, being in melee, and being aware of what is actually happening, doesn't mean everyone is.

*Combat situations in which the stalker does not initiate the alpha strike provide a situation in which stealth can be dropped from incoming ambient damage, causing aggro and thus preventing use of AS without going through a series of steps intended solely to fend off aggro and retry AS. This is regardless of skill.
Hide reads as such: when you attack or are damaged while using this power, you will be discovered. Even if discovered, you are hard to see and retain some bonus to Defense.
Hide is not a free pass to getting an AS off. It will /help/ you get AS off, as it provides a large boost to AoE defense, but it doesn't make you immune to damage, that would be silly. Things you can do to not fail here: cap out your AoE defense, don't stand where AoEs will be landing, get into the mob sooner and use AS sooner.

Demoralize was a small bonus added to the stalker AT long after CoV came out, it is not the cornerstone of the AT or the AS power. You, as a stalker, are a dps/burst class, debuffing and mezzing are not your main role. If demoralize goes off, cool, great, if it doesn't you should still be able to do your job.

I got bored of reading at this point. One last thing to add though is that a brand new player shouldn't be able to pick up any old AT and instantly be the best at it, which is what it seems like you want. Each AT has its own challenges of mastery in some form of another. Defenders and Corrs have to balance their buffs and damage powers, and maintain buffs. Blasters have to play the game without mez protection and generally weak mitigation skills other than target death. Etc, etc. I could go on but it would be pointless, each AT has its own set of tasks to get used to, including but not limited to, stalkers.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid View Post
I do hate it when balancing issues become about my incompetence. Mainly because it is a completely unprovable assertion that cannot be countered by any sort of volition on my part. Being relate-able hasn't worked, so let me move this away from personal skill:
It's only about your incompetence if you agree you're incompetent. I'm simply offering advice, really. As much of what you list, I don't have such issues at all or know how to get around them.

"*Assassin strike will be interrupted while completely stationary for seemingly no reason, regardless of skill."

No, AS will not simply interrupt for no reason. There is a ping time between user and server so you may or may not be completely stationary to the server even if you seem to be from your side. To counter this, simply learn to insert a micro-pause before using the attack or completely let go of all movement keys before initiating interruptible powers. This goes for any interruptible power such as snipes or Aid Self.

Also, you can simply slot for endurance redux in AS and tap the power twice. The first might be interrupted while the 2nd (if you're using the power properly) will fire for minimal endurance cost but higher reliability.

"*Assassin strike is harder to use on moving and airborne targets, regardless of skill."

It's not suppose to be easy to assassinate moving targets. But it's still not impossible. Simply being where the target is heading to will ensure you can strike.

"*Assassin stirke is harder to use while under the effect of speed boost, regardless of skill."


Subjective observation. AS is harder to use with speed boost...for you. Some people have a hard time controlling the speed, others have laggy connections. Acceptable complaints as they are, don't put it on a list as if it's the powers fault, at least not without stating it may just be your grievance no one else shares.


"*Assassin strike is only useful against stronge targets. A target that dies from AS had less remaining HP than the damage AS does, reducing the meaningful damage and therefore use of AS. Skill does not change this."

I don't see how skill would change this either. But then you're putting this one attack on a pedestal that it should not be. Just because it's a high powered attack doesn't mean it needs to be used on a hardy target. Remember, AS is a stealthy attack. It can be used without alerting the target until the damage lands (this *is* a boon considering longer animating attacks alert the foe *on* power activation rather than upon damage). AS is a high accuracy attack (felt good stabbing Mangle in the gullet after he popped Elude at low health and actually killing him...actually did the same in another mission when he used Elude and ran. I charged up my snipe and killed the bastid the same way...and the same with Silent Blade...). Also, AS doesn't alert the foe if it misses. There are lots of *other* utilitarian ways to use AS that doesn't involve chewing a chunk off a boss. So it's mighty useful for the other stuff.


"*Targeting, positioning, angling the camera, and executing an assassin strike is time consuming and, by the very nature of skill being brought up, is a difficult endeavor."

The reason I brought it up is because you *said* you were slow at targeting the foe, positioning and using the attack. It's only time consuming because you let it consume time. Figure a way to not consume so much time and it won't.

And all this difficult endeavor stuff, well, it carries over to your other play. Seriously, if you can't hack quick, on-the-fly targeting, what do you do if you ever play a dominator? Or a blaster? If they don't target what they need to have targeted, they end up dead...Stalkers just miss out on AS, which isn't so bad...

"*The chaotic environment of battle, especially melee combat, provides countless instances in which targeting, positioning, angling the camera, and execution can be hindered or go wrong, regardless of skill."

???

The dilemma of melee combat?

Seriously, I don't know. Even on my Scrappers, I find I occasionally get swamped by enemies in a low ceiling corridor and can't leap over them. With no knockback or teleportation, the only real way to get out is to defeat the enemy. Yeah, melee isn't all roses I guess.


"*Combat situations in which the stalker does not initiate the alpha strike provide a situation in which stealth can be dropped from incoming ambient damage, causing aggro and thus preventing use of AS without going through a series of steps intended solely to fend off aggro and retry AS. This is regardless of skill."

Speed.

But besides that, if the danger of dropped hide is present, luckily you have 6 other attacks in your primary to use instead. It was never put forth that Assassin's Strike is the *only* means of taking advantage of hidden status or the best in every situation. The attack is, obviously, situational.

"*Demoralize is only useful in two situations:
#1: Large groups of enemies of substantial threat where a to-hit debuff and fear provide damage necessary damage mitigation. If a situation where necessary damage mitigation from AS never occurs , then this lends credence to the ineffectualness of demoralize.
#2: Against very strong targets like EBs and AVs, who's high damage output would need mitigation from the to-hit debuff to keep the team alive. If a situation where necessary damage mitigation from AS never occurs, then this leads credence to the ineffectualness of demoralize."

Really can't complain with that. But then you're cherry picking situations and pigeon-holing them into 2 broad categories. In large groups of high threat foes, if mitigation for you isn't necessary, it may be necessary or desirable for those putting themselves in danger for higher team safety such as the controller/dom throwing out AoE control or the MM putting forth AoE debuffs. Taking that danger onto one's self and helping to mitigate it with AS may not seem necessary but it is desirable and smooths out team dynamics. And if it doesn't do that, apparently you're steamrolling and it doesn't really matter...you could probably go solo your own spawn because you're buffed to oblivion.

"*The defensive effects of demoralize in groups is time-sensitive, requiring that a successful AS occur quickly enough to prevent the team from sustaining too much damage. This is regardless of skill."

???

Again, the dilemma of activating powers? I mean, I could start activating Howling Twilight to help rez my friends but if I end up dead before it's 3.17 sec activation is complete, no one gets a rez.


Quote:
The myriad of difficulties in this AT's signature abilities are needless complications that provide no needed or known balancing features. The fact that skill has to be brought up as a crucial matter when attempting to achieve at best mediocrity in overall team worth indicates that this class needs to be buffed. The capability for certain players, through rigorous training, to marginally cope with the few problems that are possible to deal with is no excuse to not resolve problems and undeniably benefit every stalker player in the game. Same train of thought goes for certain primary or secondary powers aiding in some of these complications; Fix what is broken, working around what is broken doesn't fix it.
Eh, you're saying all this as if it's some insurmountable issue...which is what I have a problem with. What you see as 'needless complications' I see as standard fare. Seriously, why can't I use Lightning Rod on an airborne foe? ZOMG! Needless complications for NOOOO reason! Or that I can't hit things that aren't in line-of-sight...or needing to be on the ground to use Hurl...

It's one thing to resolve bugs and balance issues and it's another to cater to every nag and nitpick of the players. That said, I'm not saying none of your complaints have merit, but *do* actually play the AT and practice past these problems so, when bringing up these issues and circumstances, you have ample experience and anecdotal references to pull from. Not particularly aimed at you, but more in general. The last thing any Stalker player wants to hear is some n00b whining about an AT they tried for 5 levels and quit. I mean, do you hear me complaining how clunky controlling 6 pets is on a MM and it should be simplified? I *could* but then I don't play MMs all that much. I cope, and comment about experiences when others talk about it. No problem with that or this.

Quote:
EDIT: I have searched for specific string targeting for Boss and up multiple times, and the only results I get are from guides that say you cannot set yourself to auto-target the "boss" rank of enemies. You can set certain names contained by the bosses within a particular enemy group, but setting up a system to always target the bosses and up in a group would require either a large number of binds to find every specific boss for every specific group, or to re-set your binds for targeting the bosses in the group that is on the map for every map, requiring knowledge of the names of all the bosses of all the enemy groups.

Believe me, I've already barked up that tree.
Sorry, you're right. Shows how often I use slash commands. But you can make a macro that you can switch on a per-mission basis to more quickly find your targets. You don't have to know the exact name of every boss (unless it's a named boss, in which case, it's a named boss so you *have* the name most of the time) just part of it.

But, honestly, all that sounds confusing (although I've been tempted on some maps with cyst crystals...) so I simply use target nearest and target next. If I jump at the boss and click target nearest, it will either pick up the thing I jumped at or whatever is between me and that boss. A couple clicks of target next fixes this. Whatever I jumped past is not on queue to be targeted unless I turn around.

 

Posted

I guess all of the others who frequent this thread are foreign/night owls like me. I'll start abusing the quote option since things are getting complicated. It is unfortunate that posts get diced up in this manner, since global meaning is usually lost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
lol no. Just no.

Yes, AS is harder to use on a moving target (Duh?!?!!?) but with skill and practice you can AS moving targets much easier. If people can do it in pvp, I would hope even bad players can do it in PvE.

AS is only harder to use while SB'd if you don't have experience playing at capped runspeed or with runspeed buffs. Skill and practice can easily fix that.
I will respond with:

Quote:
I suspected the "increased difficulty" will fall on deaf ears the moment some player says they have no problem with it. The objective fact is that requiring more precise timing and controls due to small windows of opportunity and range will increase the margin of error. Requiring more precision to preform a task will make the task more difficult, similar to how it is harder to hit the bullseye than it is to hit just the target. Doesn't matter if some players can pull it off.
There is an ideology of apathy toward dealing with problems that I see often. This is the kind of ideal where, if there is a large hole in the middle of the road, the person would refuse to fix it simply because they can drive by it and expect others to do so. I'm not sure if it comes from some feeling of superiority about being able to do so/discriminating against others who can't, or if someone truly thinks that working around something that is broken fixes it, or if they simply deny that anyone would ever have problems with this issue.

The fallacy is that apathy = opposing point. If I provide a point of contention for myself and/or other players, and you do not have this point of contention, then your lack of discontent is *not* an argument for keeping things the same. The changes aren't made for the people who have problems, not the people who don't. Now, if you can provide some reason as to why it is that things will be messed up or why you personally wouldn't see to either fix the issue/make it tolerable for the benefits it provides, then we'll have something worthwhile to discuss.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
-- The first part of this statement is blatantly false, AS is still an attack like any other that is meant to be used, not all troublesome targets are bosses/EBs/AVs. Doing more damage than a target's remaining HP is something that _every_ powerset and AT in this game will come across, it's not a stalker issue, further, a dead target is a dead target, whether you deal 9999 damage to make it dead or 1000 damage to make it dead either way, the target will be dead. Again with your "Skill does not change this" comment, you're wrong again, you can choose your attacks to kill things appropriatly. If a target only has a small amount of hp left you don't need to use your AS, learn to manage your attacks.
AS is not an attack like any other. It is a melee range sniper power with interrupt time, a long activation, and only mediocre damage when non-critical. The high ST damage nature and AT focus of AS means that over-damaging on some weak or weakened critter critically affects the team contribution of Stalkers, akin to a blaster that uses it's nuke on just two minions. The particular critter you kill is of great importance, since there is a vast difference in threat between, say, a longbow flamethrower and a void slayer. The reason why you would use weaker attacks on a weakened critter is due to the fact that AS would be a waste on it, thereby confirming the conditions you just argued against.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
^ These 2 statements are entirely subjective. Anyone can get better at doing the above, it doesn't take a rocket scientist. The statements are not exclusive to stalkers either. Just because you're bad at targeting, positioning, camera angling, using AS, being in melee, and being aware of what is actually happening, doesn't mean everyone is.
It is not subjective that minions crowded around a boss can make targeting that boss more more difficult by being in the way and being prioritized through auto-target for no reason. It is not subjective that other members of your team or their pets move around in the mob, providing instances where the click of your mouse will land on them instead. It is not subjective that enemies are lifted, teleported, knocked back, teleport themselves, summon minions, run around corners, and raise from the dead. This is a bigger issue for stalkers than it is any other AT because of all of the facets around stalkers: Time sensitive single target interruptable preventable high-damage bursts require a lot more precision than just targeting any central critter and firing the Nuke / AoE mezz/ AoE debuff/ Taunt/ PBAoE attack.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
Hide reads as such: when you attack or are damaged while using this power, you will be discovered. Even if discovered, you are hard to see and retain some bonus to Defense.
Hide is not a free pass to getting an AS off. It will /help/ you get AS off, as it provides a large boost to AoE defense, but it doesn't make you immune to damage, that would be silly. Things you can do to not fail here: cap out your AoE defense, don't stand where AoEs will be landing, get into the mob sooner and use AS sooner.
Your dodging the issue. The focus of the stalker can fail quite easily (20 or so enemies, 1/20 chance to hit w/ capped AoE defense, ergo good chance for failure), where as by comparison a Blaster's Nuke won't suddenly not work when they get attacked. The whole point, when combined together, being that Stalkers' primary focus is not strong enough and needs tweaks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
Demoralize was a small bonus added to the stalker AT long after CoV came out, it is not the cornerstone of the AT or the AS power. You, as a stalker, are a dps/burst class, debuffing and mezzing are not your main role. If demoralize goes off, cool, great, if it doesn't you should still be able to do your job.
I see no reason, then, why it cannot be strengthened or altered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi View Post
I got bored of reading at this point. One last thing to add though is that a brand new player shouldn't be able to pick up any old AT and instantly be the best at it, which is what it seems like you want. Each AT has its own challenges of mastery in some form of another. Defenders and Corrs have to balance their buffs and damage powers, and maintain buffs. Blasters have to play the game without mez protection and generally weak mitigation skills other than target death. Etc, etc. I could go on but it would be pointless, each AT has its own set of tasks to get used to, including but not limited to, stalkers.
I find the debate ever rages on about who I am rather than any of the points I bring up. You sound convinced that I am a new player, and whenever this happens there is nothing I can say to change it: If I agree, you ignore all of my points and treat me like an idiot, and if I disagree you will just accuse me of lying then go on anyway. It is unfortunate that what is said isn't as important as who says it.


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 / Lambda trial guide video / Keyes trial guide video / Magisterium trial guide video / Underground trial guide

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
It's only about your incompetence if you agree you're incompetent. I'm simply offering advice, really. As much of what you list, I don't have such issues at all or know how to get around them.
The implications of those statements are more profound than that. If I say that there is a problem with targeting regarding stalkers, and your response can be summarized as "it takes practice and skill", then the issue has been shifted from the problem to me. This subsequently implies that I am

*Lacking skill (ergo am bad at the game)
*Have not practiced (ergo am ignorant)
*Do not know what enemies should be ASed (ergo ignorant).
*Have not attempted to practice (ergo am stupid or lazy)
*Do not know what binds are (ergo am ignorant)

And this slippery slope always turns into a ****ing contest where whomever is right is whomever is the one with the greatest distance (more skilled). These subtleties are picked up, both consciously and subconsciously, by other readers and denotes me as such.

However I digress.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
No, AS will not simply interrupt for no reason. There is a ping time between user and server so you may or may not be completely stationary to the server even if you seem to be from your side. To counter this, simply learn to insert a micro-pause before using the attack or completely let go of all movement keys before initiating interruptible powers. This goes for any interruptible power such as snipes or Aid Self.

Also, you can simply slot for endurance redux in AS and tap the power twice. The first might be interrupted while the 2nd (if you're using the power properly) will fire for minimal endurance cost but higher reliability.
Any player who plays as a stalker has already encountered this delay and always tries to accommodate for it for every future use of AS, or any interruptable power. The double-tap effect doesn't help either, since I have had many consecutive failures to que up, hinting that this ping displacement can last anywhere up to three seconds on nearby servers. I quickly learned to not attempt the consecutive use after a few times where I would fail to use my snipe four times in a row.

I play rather smoothly low graphics w/ highspeed cable internet connection, so I assume that this issue might have to deal with the server. If the case is like that of Rakion, where glitches in position would run abound (note, years old experience on it, may be outdated), then this presents a very real issue that divides ideal behavior from game-capable behavior.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
It's not suppose to be easy to assassinate moving targets. But it's still not impossible. Simply being where the target is heading to will ensure you can strike.

...snip...

Subjective observation. AS is harder to use with speed boost...for you. Some people have a hard time controlling the speed, others have laggy connections. Acceptable complaints as they are, don't put it on a list as if it's the powers fault, at least not without stating it may just be your grievance no one else shares.
I said this to another person, but debates often go tunnel vision on us, so I'll repeat:

Quote:
Quote:
I suspected the "increased difficulty" will fall on deaf ears the moment some player says they have no problem with it. The objective fact is that requiring more precise timing and controls due to small windows of opportunity and range will increase the margin of error. Requiring more precision to preform a task will make the task more difficult, similar to how it is harder to hit the bullseye than it is to hit just the target. Doesn't matter if some players can pull it off.
There is an ideology of apathy toward dealing with problems that I see often. This is the kind of ideal where, if there is a large hole in the middle of the road, the person would refuse to fix it simply because they can drive by it and expect others to do so. I'm not sure if it comes from some feeling of superiority about being able to do so/discriminating against others who can't, or if someone truly thinks that working around something that is broken fixes it, or if they simply deny that anyone would ever have problems with this issue.

The fallacy is that apathy = opposing point. If I provide a point of contention for myself and/or other players, and you do not have this point of contention, then your lack of discontent is *not* an argument for keeping things the same. The changes aren't made for the people who have problems, not the people who don't. Now, if you can provide some reason as to why it is that things will be messed up or why you personally wouldn't see to either fix the issue/make it tolerable for the benefits it provides, then we'll have something worthwhile to discuss.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
I don't see how skill would change this either. But then you're putting this one attack on a pedestal that it should not be. Just because it's a high powered attack doesn't mean it needs to be used on a hardy target. Remember, AS is a stealthy attack. It can be used without alerting the target until the damage lands (this *is* a boon considering longer animating attacks alert the foe *on* power activation rather than upon damage). AS is a high accuracy attack (felt good stabbing Mangle in the gullet after he popped Elude at low health and actually killing him...actually did the same in another mission when he used Elude and ran. I charged up my snipe and killed the bastid the same way...and the same with Silent Blade...). Also, AS doesn't alert the foe if it misses. There are lots of *other* utilitarian ways to use AS that doesn't involve chewing a chunk off a boss. So it's mighty useful for the other stuff.
Given that my vexation with stalkers is the difficulty in which AS can be used and the lack of benefit from accomplishing AS, the content of my argument will be oriented around it.

The stealth facet of AS doesn't stop retaliation, and thus the delayed response isn't too valuable. Even when killed instantly, critters are capable of firing off a counter-attack the instant they are hit, letting them get in a last laugh before collapsing. In a few instances this has resulted with me and my target having a mutual death; a rather hilarious occurrence. Regardless, the non-aggro during failure and aggro on activation don't provide any new diversity in potential recipients for the AS, or any other uses. The targets remain the same: Enemies that are an immediate threat and cannot be killed quicker through other attacks. The only thing that those benefits really do is prevent AS from spectacularly failing should it be fired off without being interrupted.



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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
The reason I brought it up is because you *said* you were slow at targeting the foe, positioning and using the attack. It's only time consuming because you let it consume time. Figure a way to not consume so much time and it won't.

And all this difficult endeavor stuff, well, it carries over to your other play. Seriously, if you can't hack quick, on-the-fly targeting, what do you do if you ever play a dominator? Or a blaster? If they don't target what they need to have targeted, they end up dead...Stalkers just miss out on AS, which isn't so bad...
There is not a player in the game that does not attempt to streamline AS usage as much as possible when they have it on their stalker. All players try altering their camera angles, alternate means of targeting, finding the sweet spot for positioning and timing to prevent interrupt, and practice this every moment their stalker is on a team. That, or they give up on the AT.

The reason why dominators and blasters don't suffer from as big of a problem with quick targeting is due to their AoE being able to just bowl over the problems they might have. On large teams, aggro is dispersed, and AoE effects can hit nearly the whole mob just by targeting the rough middle. The two classes also fight at a distance, meaning that potentially dangerous critters can be easily spotted since they'll be running right at you, making themselves a much easier target. Finally, when a stalkers AS fails, the other blaster/dom on the team dies, so it's a mutual gamble.

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
???

The dilemma of melee combat?

Seriously, I don't know. Even on my Scrappers, I find I occasionally get swamped by enemies in a low ceiling corridor and can't leap over them. With no knockback or teleportation, the only real way to get out is to defeat the enemy. Yeah, melee isn't all roses I guess.
I suppose that would mean we agree on this point.


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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Speed.

But besides that, if the danger of dropped hide is present, luckily you have 6 other attacks in your primary to use instead. It was never put forth that Assassin's Strike is the *only* means of taking advantage of hidden status or the best in every situation. The attack is, obviously, situational.
I never assumed it was the only advantage either. My vexation with stalkers is the difficulty in which AS is used and the lack of reward for successfully doing so, so the content of my argument will be centered around it.

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Really can't complain with that. But then you're cherry picking situations and pigeon-holing them into 2 broad categories. In large groups of high threat foes, if mitigation for you isn't necessary, it may be necessary or desirable for those putting themselves in danger for higher team safety such as the controller/dom throwing out AoE control or the MM putting forth AoE debuffs. Taking that danger onto one's self and helping to mitigate it with AS may not seem necessary but it is desirable and smooths out team dynamics. And if it doesn't do that, apparently you're steamrolling and it doesn't really matter...you could probably go solo your own spawn because you're buffed to oblivion.
AS isn't taunt... also I was already referring to the whole team when I said things like "substantial threat". I guess I missed it out on the proofread, but it should be "If substantial mitigation from demoralize" instead of AS.


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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
???

Again, the dilemma of activating powers? I mean, I could start activating Howling Twilight to help rez my friends but if I end up dead before it's 3.17 sec activation is complete, no one gets a rez.

All of these things contribute to the problems regarding AS. Not just one at a time, but in full concert with one another. From the things that are avoidable, to the things that require great finess to work around, and culminating from the lack of substantial reward for doing so. Don't get me wrong: AS does plenty of damage when done right. But, is it worth all of the trouble of dealing with it? I say thee nay. And this poses a real balancing problem:

Stalkers are always inevitably compared to scrappers due to their similarities. To warrant one's use over another, one has to have substantial benefits the other does not, and vice versa. The benefits of the scrapper include higher base damage, higher critical hits under most circumstances, higher build up, higher HP, and more AoE damage. The benefits of the stalker include higher overall damage when 5 or more teammates are within 30', an innate stealth, good AoE protection, and high burst damage with controlled criticals and Assassin Strike.

The stealth, not so much an advantage in PvE, given the widespread use of the stealth pool, super speed, stealth IOs, and innate stealth powers. The higher situational damage rate, not so much an advantage, since the only time you'll get 5 or more close up teammates is when you'll have 5 or more other melee classes with you (the maximum being 7). So this leaves you with good AoE defense and high burst damage from controlled criticals and assassin strike. All in all, this means that the usefulness of the stalker rides heavily on AS.

I theorize that the devs are experimenting with moving away from AS, given that Kinetic Melee's Burst has a guaranteed critical hit from hiding, and recharging buildup from concentrated strike (arguably more powerful than it simply being a critical hit itself). If they want to just make AS situational and emphasize controlled criticals, I suppose that is also an acceptable path.

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Eh, you're saying all this as if it's some insurmountable issue...which is what I have a problem with. What you see as 'needless complications' I see as standard fare. Seriously, why can't I use Lightning Rod on an airborne foe? ZOMG! Needless complications for NOOOO reason! Or that I can't hit things that aren't in line-of-sight...or needing to be on the ground to use Hurl...

It's one thing to resolve bugs and balance issues and it's another to cater to every nag and nitpick of the players. That said, I'm not saying none of your complaints have merit, but *do* actually play the AT and practice past these problems so, when bringing up these issues and circumstances, you have ample experience and anecdotal references to pull from. Not particularly aimed at you, but more in general. The last thing any Stalker player wants to hear is some n00b whining about an AT they tried for 5 levels and quit. I mean, do you hear me complaining how clunky controlling 6 pets is on a MM and it should be simplified? I *could* but then I don't play MMs all that much. I cope, and comment about experiences when others talk about it. No problem with that or this.
And it ends again with being about my skill level. I suppose that I failed in my attempt to make this argument about the objective merits, or to push these merits away from merely being nags and nitpicks. Know that I am not just complaining: I say there is a balancing issue here.

I will end with a quote from I believe the Count of Monte Cristo:

"Do not fall into the trap of the artisan who boasts twenty years of experience, when in fact he has had only one year of experience-- twenty times."


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Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid View Post
The implications of those statements are more profound than that. If I say that there is a problem with targeting regarding stalkers, and your response can be summarized as "it takes practice and skill", then the issue has been shifted from the problem to me. This subsequently implies that I am
I'm sorry, but this complaint is just plain bad. You complain about targeting as if this is a Stalker issue. Whatever qualms you have with targetting need to be brought up about the system and NOT Stalkers OR Assassin's Strike.

Please stop this. I'm serious. Because the more you complain about an issue that relates, in no way, to the AT just makes your argument seem like nagging. I know that's not what you wanted your viewpoint to boil down to so please drop it. That's why I brought up Scrappers having targeting issues, needing to be quick with targeting on Doms and Blasters and so on and so forth. The speed of finding targets is not the issue to be discussed with regard to helping Stalkers nor is it a folly of Assasin's Strike. If you can't find some other solution to this, then bring attention to that problem elsewhere.


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And it ends again with being about my skill level. I suppose that I failed in my attempt to make this argument about the objective merits, or to push these merits away from merely being nags and nitpicks. Know that I am not just complaining: I say there is a balancing issue here.
And the problem with this is, you've provided a slew of subjective arguments to prove this balance issue. Balance issues are proven with numbers and evidence but you've really provided neither.

I'll save you the time of responding to all the points (I really only did so out of respect so you wouldn't think I'm glossing over your posts) and simply highlight the point of my posts: I have no problem with you complaining about things you don't like about the game, an AT or a power. But do realize that there are players that are happy with some of the aspects you don't like and wholesale changes like you propose could upset their play and balance as a whole.

I'm not defending AS because I want to feel superior or even because I like all the limitations on it. I just already realize that AS is a situational power that does well what it does in the situations you can use it and for the situations it is not optimal, you can snag other powers. I'd rather not have the AT tied in even more to this single power or have the effectiveness of the other powers compromised just because you want this AS to have no downfalls.

 

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This whole inter-exchange is the reason that I started a thread regarding "Interruptable" powers awhile back, and also the reason that I am STILL convinced that the whole interruptable mechanic is completely unnecessary. Simply having a LONG animation is more than enough of a drawback on ANY power to effect how often and when it gets used.

Blaster snipes 4+ seconds, Mecidine pool and Assassin Strike are all similar. Take away the Interrupt mechanic and these powers will STILL be used the way they are now, but they will make much more sense.

AS could not be interrupted, and presumably, if it was coded right, you will not lose any damage as long as you clicked it before some AoE dropped you out of hide. And if you were desperate for another single target attack, you could use it as such. Honestly, the animation should be LIKE a regular attack. Stalkers are not blasters, why would it take forever and a day to line up a strike against a target your standing right next to ? Doesnt make much sense really.

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HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

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Originally Posted by Biospark View Post
AS could not be interrupted, and presumably, if it was coded right, you will not lose any damage as long as you clicked it before some AoE dropped you out of hide. And if you were desperate for another single target attack, you could use it as such. Honestly, the animation should be LIKE a regular attack. Stalkers are not blasters, why would it take forever and a day to line up a strike against a target your standing right next to ? Doesnt make much sense really.
Makes perfect sense. You aren't hitting them with a big massive attack - just like snipes, you are attempting to use a precision attack against vital portions of the body. That takes careful aim and concentration, hence why they're interruptable.

 

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Well Leo, if your not going to bother reading and would rather just make this about me, then we really don't have anything left to discuss.



Anyway, I do agree, Biospark... except on one thing. I get the distinct feeling that the medicine set has interrupts specifically to prevent resistance meleers from just healing themselves away whatever damage they get right in the middle of combat. Or at least reduce the potency.

On my WP tank I experimented around with this and put a six-slotted aid self (two 50 heals, two 50 interrupt reduction, two 50 recharge) on him. It was a great idea. Half a second interruption time, so against things like Nictus he can just heal away whatever hits get through. But I still need to eat a luck or two before I get enough room to heal myself against a whole mob. Without the interrupt, theoretically every player could pop out that little device and heal away their damage, freeing up inspiration spots since greens will become less useful.

Not sure what effects getting rid of interrupts would have on aid self, and in tertiary the healing sets from other ATs. Then again, it isn't as if it's all-or-nothing on the interrupt bid, so I'm not too heartbroken either way.


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Posted

Medicine pool is the only standout for me as well regarding the removal of interupt completely, but everyone has access to green pills, so with the exception of certain types of activity (like AV soloing), medicine pool would not be any better than using Inspies in most fights. Heck it is even worse when you consider that you have to burn a power pick BEFORE you even get access to Aid Self. If the use of Medicine were too large of a concern, they could always up the activation time to 6+ seconds. There would still be folks using it, but consider what 6 seconds of non-dps time would do to their combat tactics.

BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF

 

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The Ultimate fix for stalkers:
1) Remove Hide form secondary and make a inherit power like Fitness.
2) Give stalkers a Especial Debuff(ST/AoE) to replace hide (different in each Secondary).
3) More Dmg, especialy vs AV

The only problem with stalker is that they don't get a key feature to offer in importans games contens like TF/SF/Raid. I hate when they don't allow me to use my stalker for a SF/TF because AV Laugh at AS, or when I join a Mothership raid just to be Veng bait b/c every enemie can see my underwears throug hide(Castel already explain this one but still, not time for lil old stalkers).

P.S. They should Band any sentence that feature the words Fix and Stalker together. It always end up been a 200+ post of who the biggest nerd showdown of "Your worng", "I'm Right", "F*&&% you", and classic "STFU NOOB!"

I want /Fire stalker. Because nothing says stealth like dumping a can of gasoline on yourself and lighting a match. -Morac

 

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I won't get into the individual minutia of the arguments here. All I really want to say is that for an entire class to be designed around stealth and delivering Assassin Strikes followed by scrapping, the Stalker isn't very impressive in those regards. There are a lot of examples in this game of ATs that do their jobs a lot better and don't have to sacrifice nearly as much as a Stalker does. I've played a Stalker to 50 and even after seeing how good they can be given the right scenario, I'll take a built up Greater Fire Sword over an AS any day of the week.

Hell, there are ATs that can completely obliterate entire spawns with two powers in less time than it takes a Stalker to activate AS to kill or damage a single enemy, and they can do this on a spawn by spawn basis with absolutely no hoops to jump through. Outside of fun or variety, players will come up with what kind of character they want to play (melee in this case) and generally tend to want characters that are stronger, live longer, do more damage, defeat enemies faster, or add more to the team environment. This could be because of the power gamer mentality, or the decision that if one is going to spend 100 hours playing something, they want to make the most of it.

Stalkers are unique in this sense because outside of the Hide, AS, and slight alterations to some secondaries, the powersets are practically identical across all 3 of these ATs. All one has to do is look at the numbers and the individual traits of the 3 ATs to see that Stalkers are completely overshadowed in most ways by Brutes and Scrappers. One must really be invested in the Assassin Strike mechanic to make a Stalker. That style in itself is kind of a niche. What it really boils down to is asking why would the average player look at the 3 primary melee damage ATs (Tanks not included) and choose a Stalker? Scrappers are better at scrapping in general and usually have more access to AoEs because they don't have to sacrifice anything for Placate and AS. The same goes for Brutes. Both Brutes and Scrappers have more complete secondaries as well. The only answer is that one must REALLY want to make use of AS.

And as others have pointed out, AS isn't very helpful most of the time. Yeah, you can take out 1 dangerous enemy. Demoralize is... ok. The value of those two things are completely overblown by some players. In the grand scheme of combat in this game, they are somewhat trivial. Pretty much every other AT has tools for dealing with tough foes or controlling/debuffing everything. Once you get over the AS and the demoralize effect the Stalker just becomes a shoddy Scrapper with a high crit rate if you're benefiting from nearby teammates.


That's not to say that the Stalker is a particularly bad AT, and certainly comparing it against other ATs and specific combos within those other ATs isn't a strong argument for balance issues with Stalkers. Stalkers can be built to survive a lot. They can be built to do a lot of damage. I think Stalkers are fun to play but in my opinion there isn't enough payoff for the stealth/AS mechanic to make it worthwhile.

And to the topic, I have no idea how to "fix" Stalkers. I would probably start with a much higher damage modifier and making AoEs 100% crit from hide. Maybe an idea would be to make it so that hide only drops if you take damage. I don't know... What the problem really boils down to is the original design of the AT itself just isn't that great. It's almost an afterthought to fill in the number 5 spot for villains.

I think the original devs greatly overestimated how useful AS would be when they were designing CoV. The upgrade that they got made them a more team friendly choice, but it didn't address the primary issues. They just don't feel like a fully fleshed out, individual, unique AT. They are second-rate Scrappers with only 1 defining trait that is not nearly as good as it should be.

 

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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules View Post
Hell, there are ATs that can completely obliterate entire spawns with two powers in less time than it takes a Stalker to activate AS to kill or damage a single enemy, and they can do this on a spawn by spawn basis with absolutely no hoops to jump through.
No. No no no no no no NO!

You can't do that. You can't point at an AT and say they can obliterate entire spawns just like you can't point to a Defender and say they can all solo GMs or point to every Tanker and say they can all survive well vs any AV. NO! Just because certain powersets and certain powerset combos can do certain things does not illustrate a point that the entire AT can. It's a half-hearted ill informed statement that is solely used to strengthen a flawed argument.

And that's just the the first thing wrong with it. Just because one character can blow up everything or one character can survive a certain scenario, you expect every like character to do the exact same thing? Not only is that bad design, it's bad balance and boring homogenized game play. Might as well throw out the powerset format and just use a branching system that gives everyone the same thing but guises them as different choices.

Really, your whole post boils down to 'just cause we min/max'. Basically, why give us an option. Just choose Tanker or Scrapper and be done with it. It's not a very good argument, really. If it's all opinion then yea, whatever. But as facts, it's too steeped in half-truths and misinformation to be anything but moronically wrong.

 

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Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid View Post
The myriad of difficulties in this AT's signature abilities are needless complications that provide no needed or known balancing features. The fact that skill has to be brought up as a crucial matter when attempting to achieve at best mediocrity in overall team worth indicates that this class needs to be buffed.
...
The solution to this problem is simple: Either remove these unneeded complications, or make these complications needed.
Agreed. I've said in other threads: the core mechanics of Stalkers (Hide/AS/Placate) are unwieldy and inefficient in today's game. The 'add-ons' we've gotten, team-friendly crits, demoralize, etc are nice, but they do nothing to address the real problem.

 

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Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid View Post
I've encountered the problem of failing when I am at a dead-stop. I mean, I was literally stopped and hidden while solo, answered a PM, made a comment on a channel, then resumed only by pressing assassin strike only to have it be "interrupted" somehow. This has happened to me on more than one occasion.

I suspected the "increased difficulty" will fall on deaf ears the moment some player says they have no problem with it. The objective fact is that requiring more precise timing and controls due to small windows of opportunity and range will increase the margin of error. Requiring more precision to preform a task will make the task more difficult, similar to how it is harder to hit the bullseye than it is to hit just the target. Doesn't matter if some players can pull it off.


I do agree that sappers are a threat. I, however, disagree that AS should be used on them. Being minion class, a stalker can easily two-hit them from hide with regular attacks in a shorter amount of time than it would take to line up and use assassin strike. Not from hide, three-hit them or two-hit with build up, or sometimes one hit with build up. Unless this is on high difficulties (+4), where you can essentially AS anything, and it becomes a moot point.
I have noticed that assasins strike gets interupted when hasten ends its cycle everytime.

50 EM / SR Stalker
50 Spines / Regen Stalker
50 Claws / SR Stalker
50 DM / DA Stalker
42 DM / EA Stalker
40 Nin / Nin Stalker

 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
No. No no no no no no NO!

You can't do that. You can't point at an AT and say they can obliterate entire spawns just like you can't point to a Defender and say they can all solo GMs or point to every Tanker and say they can all survive well vs any AV. NO! Just because certain powersets and certain powerset combos can do certain things does not illustrate a point that the entire AT can. It's a half-hearted ill informed statement that is solely used to strengthen a flawed argument.

And that's just the the first thing wrong with it. Just because one character can blow up everything or one character can survive a certain scenario, you expect every like character to do the exact same thing? Not only is that bad design, it's bad balance and boring homogenized game play. Might as well throw out the powerset format and just use a branching system that gives everyone the same thing but guises them as different choices.

Really, your whole post boils down to 'just cause we min/max'. Basically, why give us an option. Just choose Tanker or Scrapper and be done with it. It's not a very good argument, really. If it's all opinion then yea, whatever. But as facts, it's too steeped in half-truths and misinformation to be anything but moronically wrong.
Perhpas I didn't word it clearly enough, but I did not mean to say that there are ATs where any powerset you choose can obliterate things on a spawn by spawn basis. Also, to your first point, you must have completely missed this:

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certainly comparing it against other ATs and specific combos within those other ATs isn't a strong argument for balance issues with Stalkers.
So I don't know where the nerd rage is coming from that you're directing at me. As for misinformation, I'd like you to point out where I distributed misinformation. My general point was Scrappers and Brutes are better melee ATs than Stalkers, and a person who is informed and making a decision between the 3 would be better off to choose a Scrapper or a Brute unless they specifically wanted to play a Stalker for their unique abilities. Stalkers fill a role that is somewhat sideways of a typical melee AT, so clearly a player wanting a front line, aggro eating, in your face fighter would be better off with a Brute or Scrapper.

I did not say that the power gaming choice is always the right choice. I was merely stating that many gamers, by human nature, will tend to play whatever is "stronger." Most people would lump Stalkers into the "melee" role, and ascribe their preconceived notions of whatever that means to them. That's just the nature of the game and MMOs in general. This is actually supported by the dev interview they just put up where the interviewee stated players gravitate towards the more "aggressive" choices. This does not mean that Stalkers are weak, or that Stalkers aren't worth the time investment. It was just my general observation of typical player behavior.

Is that misinformation? Stalkers are less oriented at scrapping than Scrappers. That is by design. Both Stalkers and Scrappers are also squishier and do less damage than Brutes in optimal scenarios. This is also by design. Stalker's sacrifice primary and secondary powers to make room for Hide, AS, and Placate. This is by design. In my opinion, which I clearly stated as such, is too much to sacrifice for what Stalkers get out of it. So where's the misinformation? Is this a balance factor? No. I never stated as such. You elected to put those words in my mouth. But I guess it's "moronic" to even mention it.


As to my point about demoralize being trivial... it is trivial in a team situation. Put 1 support AT on your team that can control/debuff/buff and that greatly overshadows any benefit demoralize offers. Demoralize is there. It's alright. It works. It's not great, but it doesn't have to be. It is what it is. I don't mean to say the Stalker AT is broken because demoralize is somehow not amazing.

I stated that I personally like the Stalker AT and played one to 50. I love the Ninjitsu power set and personally believe it's probably one of the most survivable armor sets in the game. Control? Potential for capped defense? Self heal? I'm in! I don't have some kind of personal crusade that I'm trying to hold against them.

I think you should cool off and stop throwing around insults and screaming ("no no no nononono!") if you want to have a discussion. Nothing constructive is going to come out of being juvenile and insulting other posters for stating their thoughts on a matter. If I say something that is wrong, then point it out. Correct me. I understand you love the Stalker AT, but that doesn't mean you need to be condescending. Your heated response reads to me like you're accusing me of deliberately spreading misinformation about Stalkers, which is just ridiculous. I have no vested interest in it.

 

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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules View Post
Perhpas I didn't word it clearly enough, but I did not mean to say that there are ATs where any powerset you choose can obliterate things on a spawn by spawn basis.
No, you just worded it wrong. Because saying "There are ATs that can..." is saying exactly that. Not all combos can do certain things nor can all builds accomplish similar feats. The same goes for Stalkers. You can build one that Obliterates Spawns quickly and nearly without retaliation.

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So I don't know where the nerd rage is coming from that you're directing at me.
Look above. Just state your point correctly next time.

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Is that misinformation? Stalkers are less oriented at scrapping than Scrappers.
Misinformation 1: Well, that depends what your definition of scrapping is. I don't know about you, but all my Stalkers 'scrap', meaning 'duking it out in melee range'. What is *your* definition? I mean, the 'ap' in 'Blap' means to move into melee and throw down melee...so a Stalker is less oriented to scrap than Scrappers when all their offensive powers are melee range?

I mean, when I'm on my Tankers and a Stalker's on the team, guess what that Stalker's doing. Or when I've got one of my Scrappers and there's another Stalker, guess what that Stalker's doing. Or I'm shooting stuff with my DP/Fire blaster and team with a couple of Stalkers, guess what they're doing. I mean, what *IS* is you *THINK* Scrapping is!? It has to be some arbitrary term referring to some egotistical mindframe you can't seem to accomplish with Stalkers. That Stalkers can't seem to 'scrap' is a bull**** complaint that has little merit when it comes to hitting stuff, killing it and surviving.

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Both Stalkers and Scrappers are also squishier and do less damage than Brutes in optimal scenarios.
Not really on topic but, Scrappers will deal *more* damage than a Brute with exception of comparing non-like combos. Even at the damage cap, the Scrapper does more. Also, the Stalker comes with front loaded damage (or Burst) which a Brute does not have. One has to build fury first while a Stalker simply needs Placate/BU recharged.

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This is also by design. Stalker's sacrifice primary and secondary powers to make room for Hide, AS, and Placate.
Another point of misinformation. Stalkers don't give up anything for Placate. Just Confront. Fair trade off since Confront gives no offensive or defensive advantage, if you ask me. I'll give you hide, but AS is usually not much of a sacrifice either. Losing Dragon's Tail or Lotus Drop? Ouch. Losing Whirling Hands, Quills or Repulsing Torrent? Eh. Losing Dark Consumption or Thunder Clap? We got the nice end of that deal.

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But I guess it's "moronic" to even mention it.
It's moronic if you state is as a fact. As an opinion, say whatever the hell you want. As a fact, it's dumb and false.

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I think you should cool off and stop throwing around insults and screaming ("no no no nononono!") if you want to have a discussion.
There's really nothing to discuss. Your issues have been tread through over and over. They are balanced and will not change. You might be able to horn in some adjustments like increased duration for Demoralize, better self dmg/ToHit buff numbers, adjusted secondary effects or improvements to the team crit mechanic, but you won't be getting inherent Hide/AS/Placate, you won't be getting interruption-less AS, super bad-A superior dmg over everyone else or any other things you seem to have problems with. If I sound like a **** then tough balls. Get some perspective: Stalkers are fine as they are and most likely won't change. You spouting off how bad off Stalkers are is only hurting the ATs reputation or team opportunities of those that like and play the AT. Stating an opinion is one thing, talking down is another.

And just to clarify, I'm not some Stalker fan-boi. Heck, I haven't even played one of my Stalkers in months cause I'm playing my Tankers right now (and before that, my Blasters). There are pros to Stalkers if you're willing to acknowledge them, take advantage of them and/or learn how to use them. While there are cons, that goes without saying. Every AT has them (or should have them). Looking to what others can do and then pointing to Stalkers isn't going to get you your change.

 

Posted

Why is this thread still going?

No one gives a crap about stalkers anymore.

Like them, don't like em, no one cares.

When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...

BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!

 

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No, you just worded it wrong. Because saying "There are ATs that can..." is saying exactly that.
Fair enough and wording mistake admitted.

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Look above. Just state your point correctly next time.
Hardly a cause for angry emotional reaction.

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Misinformation 1: Well, that depends what your definition of scrapping is. I don't know about you, but all my Stalkers 'scrap', meaning 'duking it out in melee range'. What is *your* definition? I mean, the 'ap' in 'Blap' means to move into melee and throw down melee...so a Stalker is less oriented to scrap than Scrappers when all their offensive powers are melee range?
Scrappers run into melee combat and scrap. That's all they do. Same for Brutes. Same for "blappers". Stalkers make use of stealth tactics, controlled crits, and usually focus on taking out the strongest enemies first. Once that's done, they will change to a more scrapperish role. I didn't say they don't scrap. I said they are less oriented on straight up scrapping. They are. No misinformation here.

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Not really on topic but, Scrappers will deal *more* damage than a Brute with exception of comparing non-like combos.
IIRC a Brute starts to out-damage a scrapper at something like 60% fury but that's besides the point here.

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Another point of misinformation. Stalkers don't give up anything for Placate. Just Confront. Fair trade off since Confront gives no offensive or defensive advantage, if you ask me. I'll give you hide, but AS is usually not much of a sacrifice either. Losing Dragon's Tail or Lotus Drop? Ouch. Losing Whirling Hands, Quills or Repulsing Torrent? Eh. Losing Dark Consumption or Thunder Clap? We got the nice end of that deal.
Stalkers sacrifice powers from their primary and secondary powersets to make room for AS, Hide and Placate. That is all I said. That is undeniable fact. You are inferring that I am stating that as a pejorative, which I am not. I clearly stated that it was my opinion that I don't like having to lose powers to make room for them. I believe that Hide, Placate and AS are essential, AT defining aspects of the Stalker AT and should be inherent. Again, no misinformation here. I would argue that diminishing the point that Stalkers do lose powers is closer to misinformation than what I said.

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It's moronic if you state is as a fact. As an opinion, say whatever the hell you want. As a fact, it's dumb and false.
And I didn't state it as a fact. You read it, inserted your own interpretation of what I said, and blew your top. If you didn't believe it was stated as a fact, then why even respond to it so angrily unless you were just looking for a reason to take a jab at me? I'll quote myself here:

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...generally tend to want characters that are stronger, live longer, do more damage, defeat enemies faster, or add more to the team environment. This could be because of the power gamer mentality, or the decision that if one is going to spend 100 hours playing something, they want to make the most of it.
The phrase "generally tend" does not imply that I am making a factual statement. It is pure, subjective observation based on my experience playing both this game and countless other games. Observation that as I stated before was supported by the Birkholz interview when he stated that
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"in general the most aggressive power sets draw the highest number of players."
I am going to make myself guilty of inference here and read into my PR translator that "most aggressive" is PR speak for "most powerful" or "defeats enemies the fastest with as little hassle as possible." Read into that statement however you want.

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Looking to what others can do and then pointing to Stalkers isn't going to get you your change.
I'll just quote myself from my first post here:

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That's not to say that the Stalker is a particularly bad AT, and certainly comparing it against other ATs and specific combos within those other ATs isn't a strong argument for balance issues with Stalkers.
I think of all the things I say, that was pretty clear. When mentioning the awesome feats that other Melee ATs with specific powerset combos are capable of I was using it only as a point of example, and to illustrate a point. When a player is choosing a melee AT, considering that player is going to make an informed choice, it's reasonable to assume that player wants to annihilate things as quickly as possible and be tough as nails. Scrappers and Brutes are the most comparable to the Knight or Warrior type class of other games. Those classes are universally the most popular in pretty much any MMO or "old-school" style RPG.

Stalkers are not the best choice for that player specifically because Stalkers are designed around a mechanic that requires stealth and precise control to make the most out of their strengths. They play more like the traditional Rogue class. Brutes and Scrappers are designed around the primary goal of running to a group of enemies, taking it on the chin, and slobber knocking it. Stalkers can do that, but it is not their primary design philosophy.

The problem arises when the ATs are practically carbon copies of each other in terms of what power choices they have. Stalkers, even with AS, don't differentiate their role enough from Brutes and Scrappers to make them a unique enough AT for one looking to make a melee class to not lump them all together when choosing which of the 3 they want to play. This invariably leads to one comparing Stalkers directly to the otherwise numerically superior Scrappers and Brutes, which will lead them back to considering the Stalker's only meaningful, defining trait: Hide, AS, Placate and controlled crits. That's the only practical reason (in the absence of qualitative things like character concept) one would choose to play this AT, specifically, over Scrappers and Brutes. Hence my determination that someone would only play a Stalker if they were very specifically set on using the Hide>AS mechanic. A mechanic, which I stated as purely my opinion, was not worth the downsides one would incur by not choosing the Scrapper or Brute. This problem is magnified in the current state of the game where you can take any AT to either faction and play any content.


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you won't be getting interruption-less AS, super bad-A superior dmg over everyone else or any other things you seem to have problems with. If I sound like a **** then tough balls. Get some perspective: Stalkers are fine as they are and most likely won't change. You spouting off how bad off Stalkers are is only hurting the ATs reputation or team opportunities of those that like and play the AT. Stating an opinion is one thing, talking down is another.
I'm not sure if you're specifically referring to me or a general "you", but I was just throwing out ideas at the end of my first post. The only specific thing I would lobby for is inherent AS, Hide and Placate. My biggest problem with the AT is that it isn't unique enough to differentiate itself from the other options. To change that would be to change the entire design of the AT. I doubt that will ever happen.

I'm also not spouting off about how bad the AT is. I generally like Stalkers because I like all of the melee ATs and I certainly wouldn't label them as "bad." I never talk about Stalkers. I haven't posted in the Stalker boards in forever and I can't even remember the last time anyone asked me about Stalkers in game or out, nor have I ever been the type to cherry pick Stalkers out of my teams. I don't think I'm responsible for helping the negative reputation Stalkers have.

When I'm putting a team together, and I usually only team for Tips and TFs these days, my general criteria is to invite X players where X is the number of people I can find playing any AT, any level (as long as it's not level restricted content) any time. That's the great thing about this game. Anything is a viable, useful choice in pretty much any scenario, almost regardless of what level they are. Even if they aren't the "best."

 

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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules View Post
Scrappers run into melee combat and scrap. That's all they do. Same for Brutes. Same for "blappers". Stalkers make use of stealth tactics, controlled crits, and usually focus on taking out the strongest enemies first. Once that's done, they will change to a more scrapperish role. I didn't say they don't scrap. I said they are less oriented on straight up scrapping. They are. No misinformation here.
You run into melee and you hit an attack. It's scrapping no matter if you're in hide or using AS or not or using the melee attacks between ranged attacks. That's what scrapping is to me. Frankly, you're just specializing a tactic that anyone with stealth+SS will do. The only difference is Stalkers get rewarded for it while others don't receive any specific bonus from. And even if that tactic was considered 'Stalking', is that the only thing you'd refer to when describing it? What about scouting out the spawn to choose the target *before* they can fight back? Or specifically backing off the battle field to pick apart the right targets on a fledgling/struggling team? It's all well and good to count percentages and min/max stats but no one ever even considers situations that are tough, not particularly for yourself but for others. No one seems to count how my Stalker can aid the team while a Scrapper...well, they can try to direct their mentality in a way to save someone but it most likely will be a hit to DPS where the Stalker will do extra in his stead.

Basically, the way you're seeing it is, just because Stalkers can 'Stalk' then they are less oriented to scrap? Why can't a Stalker be just as oriented to Scrap with the option to Stalk?

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Stalkers sacrifice powers from their primary and secondary powersets to make room for AS, Hide and Placate.
Trading Confront for Placate is not a sacrifice. Case in point, misinformation.

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And I didn't state it as a fact. You read it, inserted your own interpretation of what I said, and blew your top. If you didn't believe it was stated as a fact, then why even respond to it so angrily unless you were just looking for a reason to take a jab at me?
Great, then you won't feel attacked when I state my opinion about your opinion.

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My biggest problem with the AT is that it isn't unique enough to differentiate itself from the other options.
So Brutes and Scrappers are so totally unique? No, Stalkers are the actual unique AT of the 3. It's because it has other mechanics *ON TOP* of the usual melee fare that specifically adds to what you're already doing. Brutes only have Fury which is just a handicap at the start of a fight. Afterwards, Fury doesn't play any type of tactical or advantageous role in combat besides just a straight boost to stats. Scrappers don't really do *ANYTHING* unique. They just hit things and try not to get killed. Stalkers do that to, hit things and try not to get killed...but they have other things too.

Besides that, the only thing Scrappers have going for them is their better attack stats. Looking at the matter from a balance standpoint, you cannot take that away from the Scrapper or you take away the reason to play them.

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I'm also not spouting off about how bad the AT is. I generally like Stalkers because I like all of the melee ATs and I certainly wouldn't label them as "bad." I never talk about Stalkers. I haven't posted in the Stalker boards in forever and I can't even remember the last time anyone asked me about Stalkers in game or out, nor have I ever been the type to cherry pick Stalkers out of my teams. I don't think I'm responsible for helping the negative reputation Stalkers have.

When I'm putting a team together, and I usually only team for Tips and TFs these days, my general criteria is to invite X players where X is the number of people I can find playing any AT, any level (as long as it's not level restricted content) any time. That's the great thing about this game. Anything is a viable, useful choice in pretty much any scenario, almost regardless of what level they are. Even if they aren't the "best."
Well consider me an opponent of bad press on the boards, then. I play nearly all the ATs and play along side any. When it comes to talking about the ATs (the damage ones, particularly), I'll be there to exemplify their good qualities from a generalized, multifaceted perspective. I'm not, however, going to falsify praise or spread misinformation. Stalkers can do burst damage better than either Scrapper or Brute (of course, overshadowed by Blasters but they don't have stealth/armor). Someone would come in saying a Fiery Embrace+BU+Greater Fire Sword from a Scrapper would do better but then I'd counter with a Stalker with the same powers doing even better than that.

 

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Originally Posted by Leo_G View Post
Well consider me an opponent of bad press on the boards, then. I play nearly all the ATs and play along side any. When it comes to talking about the ATs (the damage ones, particularly), I'll be there to exemplify their good qualities from a generalized, multifaceted perspective.
No you're not, you're here to tell people to lrn2play. Everything comes down to skill to you, even things that are not dependent upon skill.

 

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Originally Posted by JustBling View Post
Everything comes down to skill to you, even things that are not dependent upon skill.
Such as?

 

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TL : DR

I hate Caltrops. It's ok on a ranged toon, but just makes life difficult as a melee toon.


Your character does not have capped defense. Depending on your AT the cap is between 175% - 225%. Your defense is not teal in the combat window, it can go higher. STOP SAYING IT IS CAPPED! The correct term is Soft Cap.
I enjoy playing in Mids. I specialize in Melee Characters, other AT's usually bore me.