The Ultimate fix for stalkers.

No, I quoted your post for the fun of it. :/

Of course I am. Stalkers are single target oriented, not single target focused. Some Stalkers have AoE, and the playerbase is well aware. But Stalkers get AS, the single most damaging single target melee attack in the game when executed from Hide. How does that not denote an affinity for being a single target oriented AT?

Please note that I'm not saying they are purely single target. I'm saying that Stalkers lean towards single target, as most of their attacks (including proliferated sets such as Broadsword) have had AoE's removed and replaced with the signature Stalker powers. Example: Whirling Sword replaced with AS. I don't mean directly, but the set lost Whirling Sword in favor of either AS/Placate.

Stalkers are oriented to be single target dynamos. They are not meant to be AoE machines. If they get AoE, excellent! They still have a predetermined affinity for being single target, and AS is a prime example of that.

Caltrops are pretty awesome, but I'd rather have more variety.

Make Hide inherent (but still slottable). Replace it in each set with an AoE something.

DA - Premonition of Doom - 30' radius, 16 target, -10% to-hit debuff for 8 seconds, -40% perception for 8 seconds, does not alert enemies and does not break stealth, 40 second recharge, 1 to 2 second cast time. (accepts to-hit debuff and accurate to-hit debuff sets)

ElA - Unseen Leech - 30' radius, 16 target, -15 end, 60% chance of -100% recovery for 8 seconds, does not alert enemies and does not break stealth, 60 second recharge, 1 to 2 second cast time. (accepts end mod sets)

EnA - Kinetic Trip - 30' radius, 16 target, -10 end, 80% chance of 0.67 KB, 50% chance of 5 second placate, 4 second delay and then another 80% chance of 0.67 KB, does not break stealth, 60 second recharge, 1.5 to 2.5 second cast time. (accepts end mod and KB sets).

Nin - Poison Blossoms, 30' radius, 16 target, -12% damage, -40% move speed, -30% recharge for 10 seconds, does not alert enemies and does not break stealth, 60 second recharge, 1 to 2 second cast time. (accepts slow sets)

Reg - Glory for All - 30' radius ally buff, +50% regen, +20% recovery, +50% stun resistance for 30 seconds, 1.5 to 2.5 second cast time, recharge 120 seconds. (accepts healing and end mod sets)

SR - Who, Where, Huh? - pet summon. You are so agile, it seems like there are many of you. 3 or 4 second cast time. Summons 3 indestructible pets (that can be walked through, like Singularity), with a 10 second duration. Each pet has a 10 foot taunt aura that hits up to 5 people. The pets have one brawl attack that deals no (or very low) damage. Does not break stealth for the stalker, 90 second recharge. (accepts pet recharge sets)

WP - We Shall Overcome - 30' radius ally buff, +10% to hit, +30% damage, +15% resist to all for 20 seconds, 1.5 to 2.5 second cast time, recharge 120 seconds. (accepts to-hit buff and resist sets)

I find it hard to point at an attack that has a 30 foot radius, 16 target cap effect and use that as evidence that the AT has a single target slant.

This is about as idiotic an argument as when BillZ said Stalker shouldn't be considered when thinking of ways to rebalance Energy Melee. If your argument is to invalidate an AT, you've just lost.



That's just another misconception. But if a stalker is single target focused, how can one have more AoEs than certain other melees? An EM Brute vs a Dual Blades Stalker has 1 *more* AoE than the brute. A MA Scrapper vs a Spines Stalker has 2 more AoEs than the scrapper. If the misconception is Stalkers are single target focused, there would be no situation where a Stalker has any or more AoEs than any other melee.


Oh, what's that, in-game numbers? For Whirling Hands and Whirling Axe, they deal 41.7 dmg on the same radius and number of enemies? What's that about Whirling Mace? It deals an extra 5 dmg points? (some CoD links there too, incidentally, the damage of those attacks are about as much as a tier1 attack...exactly, in fact).

I won't even bring up Typhoon Edge, Tremor and a couple other PBAoEs that people are whining about. Again, I'm not putting those attacks down, I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy. I like my whirling attacks solo and think they're great on teams too...but so is AS great on teams. They'd suffer the same in a situation where a team is plowing through content and you're a hypocrite if you think otherwise.

I won't even comment on the other stuff, Desch, as you aptly demonstrate how much you *don't* know.

But... it's true. I don't build my Tankers for damage, I build them for survival. Sure, it takes hella long to kill stuff, but I don't die do I? I didn't build my Stone/EM Tanker to do damage. I built him to take on the toughest of the tough and not die. His argument was not to invalidate an AT (don't know where you're even getting that), it was to invalidate your point.



Whirling Hands has a much crappier secondary effect than any other 'whirling' AoE except Typhoon's Edge, which has no secondary effect period. I see the knockdown/knockback/stun from Whirling Axe/Tremor/Whirling Mace far more often than the stun from Whirling Hands.


May I ask what you're referring to?

Why do you think I'm trying to invalidate an AT? I'm saying when it comes to dealing damage, no one says "Oh, we need a tanker for that." Brute EM, by contrast, is quite rare.

Quit pulling out edge cases and compare apples to apples. An Elec Stalker will be more single target focused than an Elec Scrapper. An MA Stalker will be more single target focused than an MA Scrapper.

When comparing survivability between ATs, you don't say a shield scrapper is more survivable than an EA brute, so obviously all scrappers are tougher than brutes. You're smarter than that, I think, so why do you try this argument with stalkers?

This was already touched on by someone else. One AoE in a set will not be noticeable. Several AoEs allow for much faster cycling and a verifiable effect. This was perception on my part to think Whirling Hands was far worse than the others, but the end result is the same. Having one AoE in a set is not enough in a AoE centric game.

You're taking this awfully personal, considering that I have stated I don't have any problem with stalkers. They're single target focused, which I do not think is a detriment, but the fact remains that most people do not desire them on a team because of this focus. They would rather have the comparable scrapper that does more AoE. Again, these are facts that cannot be argued.

Assassin's Strike/Slash/Blow/whatever. It is the power the devs changed to help alleviate the single target slant. The AoE portion of that power is an enormous benefit, solo and teamed. And it is not a small AoE.

Yet it doesn't. Otherwise, no one would be playing Energy Melee and no Scrapper would be asking for it to be proliferated.

The basis for your argument relies on the opinion of some forum posters and therefore a minority of the actual players. There are no statistics or facts there to counter any type of point.


The complaints about Whirling Hands is its damage, not its secondary effect. Nice try, tho.

Scrappers want it proliferated because it would be the top dog in single target damage for soloing AVs and PvP.

Read that carefully.

Soloing.

Either the AT is single target focused (like you said) or it's not. A *set* can be single target focused, but that's not what you said, is it Mr. Nitpicker?

And they had a different argument than yours. No time to go drawing on other's info when you've already demonstrated your own, right?

To clarify, my issue with hypocritical arguments and what not are focused more on the plethora of other threads that have covered this, not any particular poster (unless you've made the argument I'm referring to). But it was more about education than taking anything personally. When someone says I'm Single target focused, I'll go pop BU > 1kcuts from hide and laugh (probably because no other melee could accomplish this with their Dual Blades, which is apparently so much better).

No, no. Stalkers are simply waiting for those other sets the devs have dangling over our heads...the sets that were held back by Broadsword. Because any of those sets have good to great AoE potential and are the ones people rave about when they talk of AoE. And when they are proliferated, they will be just as good because a BU > Crowd Control from hide is just as good, if not better, than BU > Whirling > CC. Or for Ice melee getting more ST burst damage at the cost of no damage with all its AoE intact?

And reread the post you first referred to in this line of argument.

"Popular" carries no denotation of where, now does it?

Well you have me there, but unfortunately that AoE effect isn't damage. It's just a temporary debuff that does indeed help with soloing/teaming. Problem is, the big part of AS is just that: AS. The -ToHit and 'Demoralization' aren't what's killing things, it's the Special damage from Hide. So while it has the potential to be an AoE debuff it's a single target attack.

He's still correct though; no one clamors for Tankers when they want massive damage output unless they have a team of Rad defenders and need something to smash apart a cluster of debuffed enemies.

My argument was that your argument had no bearing on Dechs's argument.

... argument.

I don't want to split Whirling Hands into two things. It's a PBAoE power that has generic PBAoE 'whirling' damage and a rather negligible secondary effect. Because other 'whirling' PBAoE powers have more noticeable/useful secondary effects, I consider them to be better than Whirling Hands due to the added mitigation they come with. The only exception is, again, Typhoon's Edge, that has no secondary effect unless used in the Sweep chain.

Ok, you'll do that once. It's a cone that hits how many people? Then, on the next spawn or maybe the one after that, you'll be ready to do it again. Good for you.

The DB scrapper has a constant damage buff from stacked Blinding Feint, flinging out more AoE damage on more targets than your DB stalker could ever dream of.

Oh yeah, and your Attack Vitals combo is only single target.

It brings more damage mitigation then any other power in Ninjitsu.

I am looking forward to that.

10, the same amount of foes as any Whirling attack. And considering the slightly longer range of 1kcuts for Stalkers, it shouldn't be that much harder to fit around the same foes in a 90 degree arc than it'd be to squeeze them in an 8ft radius.

After the boss and other mobs are taken care of? Yes, and thank you.

And great for them...if there are minions left to strike down. But funny thing about Dual Blades...for the min/maxers to get top performance out of DBs, one must use attack chains that disregard the combos.

It's all right, though. I'll just swing around my 20% chance of PBAoE -res on Ablating and keep trucking along. My DB/Nin stalker that I just picked up again, is built for burst damage, not maxed DPS. You go try that with other DB sets...

Thanks for proving my point.

Your point is that I decided not to build for DPS but rather burst damage? Pretty lame argument.

Go pick up that argument with my MA/SD scrapper with slotted Aid other, Maneuvers/Tactics and an extra slot in Resuscitate. Guess that means a MA scrapper can't be built for DPS...

... what? What.. what is this, I don't even...

Seriously, where are you going with this?

It does not need to be damage to be very useful to a team. Do I think the Demoralize effect is enough debuff/control? Not for the AT as a whole, but it is enough for that power and it is potent and it makes that attack an AoE power (I do think it needs to happen even when you kill the target, they really should fix that). Killing things is important. Helping the team kill things can be just as important. Stalkers, IMO, are close to a good spot. Close enough to no longer be a laughing stock and with some sets actually very excellent. I think they still need a bit more in general, but not in the direct damage area.

You should really stop typing as if you know what you are talking about and more in a questioning, desire to learn manner. It is apparent you know very little about the stalker AT. If you must continue to type, you really should check into the facts about what you type.

We will start with MA. True, scrappers get one AoE attack that stalkers do not get. OTOH, stalkers get the AoE debuff/control of Demoralize.

ElM is where you just typed stuff because you really want to believe you are right without actually looking at the facts. This is the second post where I had to point that out to you, so I want to make sure it is emphasized (I am trying to show you that your broad generalizations and beliefs about the AT are mistaken and that you need to reassess your position by actually looking at the state of the AT as it exists now and with all the powerset options that exist now, as opposed to the history of the AT). Now onto the facts. ElM for stalkers has ALL of the damage AoEs that ElM for scrappers, tankers, and brutes get. Stalkers lost Lightning Clap (much to my personal sadness, but I admit I am likely in the minority here), an AoE control. Stalkers gain Demoralize, an AoE control/debuff. Stalker ElM can be just as AoE focused as all the other ElM.

agreed.