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Good thing I never stated that no one likes or wants to play the set. I said that far fewer players are starting new characters with EM due to the nerf it received and that far fewer scrappers are asking for its proliferation since that nerf.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
This is stupid. I can give you evidence that there are still a decent size of players playing EM but to expect the same number (or even close) belies the results you want to see. What about those new sets introduced to those ATs? Or even lowered requirements to play EATs.
No, the proof you want is impossible. But that still doesn't mean no one likes or wants to play the set. |
It's of no surprise to me that you don't have access to the data I requested. I don't have it either. It's also of no surprise that instead of bothering to come up with at least some kind of argument showing that EM is anywhere near as popular as it was outside of stalkers, the AT designed around heavy single target damage output, you chose to assign statements to me that I didn't make.
Be well, people of CoH.
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I'd hardly call 2 posters throwing quips at me 'flames'. Maybe a cigarette bud...|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
You were the one that brought it up in the first place so you have no one but yourself to blame for the flames coming your way.
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| A great way to circumvent this is to stop making such aggravated posts and try ending on notes other than "YOU'RE NOT RIGHT, NOW FREAKING DEAL WITH IT." |
And I'd hardly call explaining my post 'taking it personal'. Truth be told, I already 'took it personal' when BillZ, someone I actually considered a respectful poster, stooped to something petty. But like you said, rep is gone so there's nothing to take personal now. At this point, I don't really care what anyone thinks of my opinion. I'll express what I like and you can just not read it (see my posts on why I don't care for new Inherent Fitness!).
That said, I already explained why I'm not totally behind the OP's suggestion. Just because I make a stalker doesn't make them ninjas...
Yeah, no real need to get annoyed on an internet forum. I know some people live for the drama, but meh. I'd rather have a good discussion without people getting overly involved.
Anyway, I don't really find myself in need of much for my Stalker, other than maybe enhancing/perfecting the changes that were made a few issues back. I think Stalkers probably should have their HP cap nudged up by the same amount that their base was increased, so the AT can have the same benefit other ATs do from powers/bonuses that increase HP. The increased crit rate from teammates just needs a greater range, to my mind. That ability to crit well and often is an advantage of a Stalker over a Scrapper or Brute, so I'd like it to work well.
Maybe there's room for some base damage increase there as well, but I don't know that it's needed. My Nin Stalker takes out things just about as well as my Katana Scrapper. Some other flavor thing would work for me, but not cal trops for all (if that's even being thought about anymore, heh).
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Perhaps you've learned a valuable lesson then: Don't be disrespectful to others (see quote: "This is about as idiotic an argument as when BillZ said..." as well as other posts in this thread alone) and they might remain respectful toward you.| Truth be told, I already 'took it personal' when BillZ, someone I actually considered a respectful poster, stooped to something petty. |
Now that you've shown what a hypocrite you are, however, I doubt you'll learn anything from this.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Since stating "Scrappers don't want stalker EM proliferated" makes no sense, the only probable translation is "Scrappers don't want EM proliferated", which we know isn't true as there are still players that play and like the set.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Good thing I never stated that no one likes or wants to play the set.
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If that's not what you mean, then I'd say clarify your stance.
As for fewer players playing the set? This is true. 5 is less than 6 and it's not a mystery that people will gravitate to other sets for whatever reasons.
But 'far' fewer? This would have to be proven. I can prove players still use and like the set, which is the only point I was making at the start.
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From another hypocrite? Unlikely.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Now that you've shown what a hypocrite you are, however, I doubt you'll learn anything from this. |
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Brutes lost a lot of their uniqueness due to the nerf compared to other melee, and I don't agree Brutes are more efficient now, but I am open to that idea if you have data to back this up.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
Good lord, we've been through this. It wasn't a full-fledged "nerf." It brought the AT in line with the other melee AT's and made Fury generation and playing a Brute as a whole more efficient.
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How did they loose uniqueness?
Fury still works, from what I understand overall it degrades slower unless your at the higher end of the bar.
So if Fury is still there and lasts longer how have they lost uniqueness?
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Which, considering the duration of mezzes in PvP, is only marginally more useful than the proverbial submarine screen door. If you just so happen to be in melee range (and not hidden) for the typically less than 2 seconds the target is mezzed, 20% of the time you might get a critical! In the meantime, you lose the PvE 10% base out of hide.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Aaaaand, considering Stalkers still have a crit chance on held or slept foes in PvP which is indeed a value added to the AT's powers to simulate their inherent...
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Not good enough? Well, considering Stalker EM was proliferated from the Tanker version with the same values except with extra flags to work with crits, placate and hide, you have a pretty useless argument. [...]
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The reason I say "Stalker EM" for proliferation to Scrappers is due to the stun chances as well as the reduced criticals. Or, to put it another way, if Scrappers get the higher stun chances that Tankers and Brutes have, Stalkers should receive them at the same time (effectively making it "Stalker EM" at that point in any case).
There's also really no reason to not proliferate it: with the buffs to MA, it currently does better single target damage than EM, and Dragon's Tail is a better AoE than Whirling Hands; Cobra Strike also gives you a better chance to stun than any of the attacks in an EM Stalker's "best DPS" chain, although stacking it is more problematic.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I will admit to having been on fast moving teams where it often felt like the rad debuffs were less than useful. That being said, it can be hard to notice that the alpha was massively mitigated because the toggle got activated. How long does the toggle actually need to be active? After all, if we had a click power with a 10 second recharge that debuffed the to-hit of all foes in a 25 foot radius by 30% for 6 seconds, I don't think most people would consider that useless.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Personally, I don't find the demoralize useful unless I'm solo on my own stalker. I hardly ever notice its effects with another stalker on the team.
Likewise with Radiation Infection and Enervating Field. They just don't do much in most cases (in high level play), until you get to the AV. The debuffs just don't stick around long enough to matter otherwise. |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I don't think stalkers need any changes to become more AoE oriented in general. You can't really change that. Let the sets dictate how AoE centric your character is.
I do feel that stalkers need to do more damage. Simply put, there is a scale right now. As the AT loses toughness from tank to scrapper, the damage increases. Stalkers are the outlier, in that they have less mitigation than scrappers, but not a clear cut advantage in damage output. If the damage of stalkers was better than scrappers, then the lack of AoE could be overlooked. |
Caltrops for all!
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Much as I like caltrops, I just can't get behind a blanket change like that. I just don't feel that one of the defining features of a stalker should be based on the use of caltrops. (To my mind, if you're going to make it inherent, it is one of the defining features of the AT.) There are a number of other powers--AS, Placate, Hide--that are already far more common than caltrops, and help define the AT's character better. If you're going to make anything inherent, it would probably be more acceptable to the players to make one of these other powers inherent.
For myself, I'd just like more damage. How that is accomplished--through another debuff on AS, or a range extension on scaling crits, or having a magical genie arrive and debuff on command--isn't so much an issue for me at this point. I'd probably prefer a more conventional route than a genie tho.
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Except that stalkers have a lower damage modifier than scrappers. Outside of AS, every stalker attack does less damage than the same attack done by a scrapper. This means damage buffs have more of an effect on scrappers and their crits hit harder.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
The damage output of stalkers looks very good to me. The only reason I would think of scrappers or brutes as outdoing stalkers is due to AoE damage on top of aggro control.
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Crit rate is another beast entirely, and with a full team stalkers will crit much more often. I'd have to do a bit of math on it, but we may determine that stalkers average more damage because of the increased crit chance.
That doesn't mean anything, though, because at the base, scrappers win for damage. Considering that stalkers lack the survivability of scrappers, that should not be the case. We just witnessed this with the brute adjustment. Scrappers are less survivable than brutes, so the scales were adjusted to be sure that scrappers are better in terms of damage. It's time we revisit stalkers, and up the damage modifier.
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Please see the following quote. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
And where did I say you're not right?
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
...I say just stop trying to be right all the time.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
If anything, I just returned the nitpick because the point was, the values are different and would require more than just adjusting them to proliferate not to mention scrappers can't get Assassin's Strike and would either need a new attack or pull out a version of Whirling hands with independant values and add to it.
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
People have asked to have the Stalker versions of EM ported to Scrapper because -- surprise -- the Stalker versions have already had their Critical effects (such as the non-health-draining ET) factored. It would make porting the set over easier with the exception of Stun and Whirling Hands, which would need a Critical calculation done in order to make it a Scrapper-viable set. Porting the set over from Brutes/Tankers would need those Critical values recalculated and their damage values adjusted as Scrappers have higher base damage than Brutes (fury notwithstanding) and Tankers.
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Proliferating Energy Melee to Scrappers would probably be easier if the set was derived from the Stalker version, even though it would mean calculating the attacks that were replaced by Assassin Strike and Placate since they did not receive such treatment. Since the critical values and effects are already present in Barrage, Energy Punch, Bone Smasher, Energy Transfer and Total Focus all that's needed is to remove the Critical if Held/Slept flag and add critical values and effects for Stun and Whirling Hands.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
And I'd hardly call explaining my post 'taking it personal'. Truth be told, I already 'took it personal' when BillZ, someone I actually considered a respectful poster, stooped to something petty. But like you said, rep is gone so there's nothing to take personal now. At this point, I don't really care what anyone thinks of my opinion. I'll express what I like and you can just not read it (see my posts on why I don't care for new Inherent Fitness!).
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It was you. I don't know how else I can explain this.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
That said, I already explained why I'm not totally behind the OP's suggestion. Just because I make a stalker doesn't make them ninjas...
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Brutes lost a lot of their uniqueness due to the nerf compared to other melee, and I don't agree Brutes are more efficient now, but I am open to that idea if you have data to back this up.
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-Fury decays slower immediately out of combat, which means less fury building during the next spawn, more chances for efficient downtime between groups should you need it, and higher damage between spawns due to the shorter decay.
-Fury builds faster immediately into combat, allowing for higher damage within 10-15 seconds of engaging the enemy. This affects low-level Brutes on a very VERY high magnitude.
-The damage cap was lowered from 850% to 775%, which a reduction of an extra 75% damage. Thing is, levels like that are usually only achievable in teams, as Fury (at max) only provides a 200% damage increase and even with Build Up/double stacked Rage you aren't yet breaking 500% (in my trials, at least).
The ONLY nerf in that entire setup was the removal of an extra 75% damage in the damage cap. While it IS harder to get past 75% Fury now, I have seen it when running +2/x8 on my level 44+ Brutes (46 SS/Elec, 50 Fire/Fire, 50 Dark/Dark, 45 Energy/Will).
The only changes I've noticed in my play is the slightly shorter Fury bar in smaller spawns and the much much much faster leveling of newly rolled Brutes. I have noticed no loss of uniqueness in how my Brutes play.
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The math isn't hard but it rests on an assumption that is difficult for us to get right: What is the average crit rate of a Stalker on a team of size 'n' over the course of, say, an entire mission? This is going to vary based not only on how YOU play your Stalker but how everyone else on the team plays THEIR characters. Team composition. How spread out spawns are (thus tending to spread apart the team attacking them), etc.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Crit rate is another beast entirely, and with a full team stalkers will crit much more often. I'd have to do a bit of math on it, but we may determine that stalkers average more damage because of the increased crit chance.
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| That doesn't mean anything, though, because at the base, scrappers win for damage. |
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| It's time we revisit stalkers, and up the damage modifier. |
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lemme threadjack for a moment. I hate math. I really hate math. But I don't see how reducing the damage cap from 850% 775% was a 75% reduction. My calculator tells me it's a 9.1% reduction. Am I missing something, or is that a typo? |
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
-The damage cap was lowered from 850% to 775%, which is a 75% reduction. Thing is, levels like that are usually only achievable in teams, as Fury (at max) only provides a 200% damage increase and even with Build Up/double stacked Rage you aren't yet breaking 500% (in my trials, at least).
The ONLY nerf in that entire setup was the 75% reduction in the damage cap. While it IS harder to get past 75% Fury now, I have seen it when running +2/x8 on my level 44+ Brutes (46 SS/Elec, 50 Fire/Fire, 50 Dark/Dark, 45 Energy/Will). |
Okay, threadjack over.
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EDIT:|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
lemme threadjack for a moment. I hate math. I really hate math. But I don't see how reducing the damage cap from 850% 775% was a 75% reduction. My calculator tells me it's a 9.1% reduction. Am I missing something, or is that a typo?
Okay, threadjack over. |
Oh, hurr hurr, numbers lawl. Sorry! I worded that poorly. I meant a reduction of an extra 75% damage, not a 75% overall reduction. Changed!
And yeah, you're right, 9.1%. Not a huge deal honestly.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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You state that stalkers may out damage scrappers, but then you say even if that is true, it doesn't matter because scrapper base damage is higher. That is kind of a goofy thing to say. If stalkers out damage scrappers thanks to the higher crit rate in combination with some guaranteed crits, then the fact that the scrapper AT mod is a bit higher is irrelevant. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Crit rate is another beast entirely, and with a full team stalkers will crit much more often. I'd have to do a bit of math on it, but we may determine that stalkers average more damage because of the increased crit chance.
That doesn't mean anything, though, because at the base, scrappers win for damage. Considering that stalkers lack the survivability of scrappers, that should not be the case. We just witnessed this with the brute adjustment. Scrappers are less survivable than brutes, so the scales were adjusted to be sure that scrappers are better in terms of damage. It's time we revisit stalkers, and up the damage modifier. |
The reason I feel that simply upping stalker damage is a bad idea is because it does not change anything important. Even if we can say, "stalkers definitely deal more damage than scrappers," most people will still retort with, "So what?" Scrappers and Brutes deal plenty of damage, are more survivable, have more AoE effects, and can hold aggro better.
Direct damage is not what stalkers need, IMO. They should get nifty thief/assassin tricks to weaken the enemies or place their allies in advantageous position. In this game, that translates into buffs, debuffs, and controls. They have some, but should have more.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Stalkers only out damage scrappers on a full team with everyone in range, and even then, I'd have to do the math to prove it. Right now, I just think it's close.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
You state that stalkers may out damage scrappers, but then you say even if that is true, it doesn't matter because scrapper base damage is higher. That is kind of a goofy thing to say. If stalkers out damage scrappers thanks to the higher crit rate in combination with some guaranteed crits, then the fact that the scrapper AT mod is a bit higher is irrelevant.
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Base, however, with no teammates, stalkers cannot match scrappers.
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Quote:
I've obviously had WAY too little sleep when my knee-jerk response to this was "Improve the IQ of the other team members." |
Originally Posted by DMystic
I'm not sure how to improve Stalker contribution to teams.
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Honestly, just getting rid of the crit buff leash would be enough.
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Outside of AoEs, are you sure? Even including AoEs, if you use a good stalker AoE set, it might not be as cut and dry as you make it. Assassin's Strike and guaranteed crits from hide and a higher AoE crit rate from hide are not insignificant.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Stalkers only out damage scrappers on a full team with everyone in range, and even then, I'd have to do the math to prove it. Right now, I just think it's close.
Base, however, with no teammates, stalkers cannot match scrappers. |
I am not saying that stalkers out damage scrappers solo. I am saying it is not self-evident nor assured that scrappers out damage stalkers. I am also saying that it does not matter either way.
Even if it was cut and dry that stalkers beat out scrappers, even if we raise the stalker damage mod to something like 1.25, stalkers will still be scoffed at by many. Give them AoE buffs, debuffs, and controls, and they will be much more appreciated.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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There is little chance that Stalkers will be redesigned to such an extent. Look at what happened between Brutes and Scrappers just now. THAT is the sort of tweak you can expect. A numbers tweak. They are going to turn some dials. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Even if it was cut and dry that stalkers beat out scrappers, even if we raise the stalker damage mod to something like 1.25, stalkers will still be scoffed at by many. Give them AoE buffs, debuffs, and controls, and they will be much more appreciated.
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I don't see why that is a problem. If AoE is your bag then there are AoE stalkers to choose from. New powersets and proliferations all seem to have tried to keep some, if not all, of the good AoE in the set. Buffs, debuffs, and controls all sound good on paper but you have to remember that they can't be too good without encroaching on the territory of ATs for whom that is their specialty. Stalkers are set up to be damage dealers, not melee controllers. Attempting to tack that on at this late date... I dunno. I just can't see that going very well.
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I've seen it worked out before and as I recall the break-even point (at least ignoring AoE differentials) is around 5 or 6 teammates. So most of a full team has to be joined-at-the-hip with you on EVERY attack, which is all but impossible. That's not true of every stalker, of course. People who lead off with AoEs from Hide are going to skew that a bit more in their favor if all you're looking at are total damage output numbers.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Stalkers only out damage scrappers on a full team with everyone in range, and even then, I'd have to do the math to prove it. Right now, I just think it's close.
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I keep meaning to set up HeroStats for a Task Force or something and just record my total crit rates for all attacks on a full team. Won't be able to break out Hide crits that way but I'd get a total that includes all crits random or controlled which is really what we're after anyway.
It's all kind of irrelevant though. When they devs go to tweak the dials again, they will have the actual historical data to look at that tells them how well Stalkers are doing on damage compared to Scrappers.
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Quote:
The scrapper/brute/tanker balance issue was, IMO, a simpler concern.|
Originally Posted by Zem
There is little chance that Stalkers will be redesigned to such an extent. Look at what happened between Brutes and Scrappers just now. THAT is the sort of tweak you can expect. A numbers tweak. They are going to turn some dials.
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The last time they tweaked stalkers, it is true they increased the damage mod. They also added an AoE debuff/control to AS, made Hide come back after eight seconds instead of ten, removed the end cost from the Hide toggle altogether, and altered how stalker criticals worked in an intriguing way. If they ever tweak stalkers again, I hope its more stuff like the last four, rather than the first one. The devs have showed a willingness and ability to do interesting things. If a numbers tweak was all they were looking at, I don't think the devs would be delaying it so much.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
...I say just stop trying to be right all the time.
I'm not trying to be "right" all the time, I'm offering my argument and admittedly getting a bit snippy thanks to the way you're responding. A great way to circumvent this is to stop making such aggravated posts and try ending on notes other than "YOU'RE NOT RIGHT, NOW FREAKING DEAL WITH IT."
I think someone pointed this out earlier but you're taking this awfully personal for something that isn't directly affecting you as an individual.
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"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."