The Ultimate fix for stalkers.

The cottage rule is the rule that an existing power cannot be removed or changed into a different power. If Caltrops was made inherent, the Ninjitsu version would have to be changed into a different power, otherwise there would be two copies of Caltrops. So my question is... Do you in fact understand the cottage rule?


1. It brings an excellent control tool to the Stalkers, and Caltrops are fantastic for teams, thus making them a more attractive team member.
2. It increases Stalkers survivability significantly, without boosting HP, or defensive values.
3. It solves nearly all mission related issues Stalkers have, such as Stalkers weakness to Ambushes, compared to all other classes.

I honestly can't think of any of the powers skipped from the secondaries for Hide that would help Stalkers as much as Caltrops would. Even Quick Recovery wouldn't bring anywhere near as much as Caltrops, especially with the fitness changes coming.

Incorrect. The cottage rule states that you cannot change the basic functionality of the power. It's a different rule entirely that you can't duplicate powers. Caltrops could be added, and then the version that Ninjitsu stalkers has could be altered, so long as it was still a patch slow and scatter effect. This would be much like the Energize change that happened to Electric Armor when heroes were given the set. That was a nice try, though, to get the cottage rule to work with your silly suggestion that doesn't fix a problem that doesn't exist.

The problem that stalkers are not desirable to a team is a result of their single target focus. Most teams like to steamroll, which requires AoE. Nevermind the fact that a stalker gets amazing crit chance on a team. No one cares. This proposition does nothing to fix perception of stalkers or address the AoE damage output.

The problem that stalkers are vulnerable to ambushes is regrettable, but more a result of the nature of ambushes. An intelligent player could deal with ambushes regardless of the powersets he's chosen, and adding caltrops hardly helps the dimmer variety of players deal with them. If you can't deal with ambushes now, caltrops won't be your saving grace.

Well, some sets could get Caltrops. Other sets could get other powers, not necessarily ones that have been removed from those sets previously but just other powers. Maybe Energy Aura gets a small radius immobilize that looks like a Gravity Control power, for example. Maybe Elec Armor gets a smaller/weaker version of the sleep aura drop from Elec Control. Etc.

His suggestion to make caltrops inherent wasn't what he regarded as the cottage rule violation, if I read it right. The cottage rule would have to be violated to change ninjitsu's version of caltrops to something else.

Great. Now I have an inexplicable craving for curdled cheese.

WRT caltrops in the inherent, I don't hate it. It's a bit out of the box, and it might anger the "stalkers should be scrappers with stealth" crowd, but it does solve many of the problems that stalkers have, even if it doesn't do it in a way I would prefer.

And it paves the way for Castle to give caltrops for Ninjitsu what I like to call "the Shuriken treatment:"

....drumroll.....

Exploding Caltrops

This is not a problem inherent to the Stalker AT otherwise no one would ever play Dark Melee Scrappers or Brutes, Stone Melee would be a joke, Martial Arts would not be as viable an option for Scrappers and Energy Melee wouldn't be as popular for Tankers as it is.

I think, if you're going to make a bit fuss about what rule is which (if you're being specific about it, the Cottage rule is *envoked* when repeat powers are present but whatever) then at least be correct with the rest of your nitpickery.

Caltrops inherent? No thanks. Caltrops are nice, but it's not some universal power that synergizes with the AT and all its powersets. Not to mention, not every Stalker is a ninja.

All of those power sets you mention have at least one AoE attack. For stalkers, they do not. Energy melee is constantly berated for not having enough AoE. See almost any Bill Z post.

One of the reasons elec melee is so popular on stalkers is the fact that it does have AoE in heaps.

The problem is all perception. I find stalkers just as useful as scrappers and brutes on my teams, but the perception of the community is less favorable. This is most likely due to the combination of the single target focus and the "hit and run" of the initial design to stalkers.

Last I checked, BillZ's isn't the authority on set viability here and it doesn't change the fact that Energy Melee *is* played and *is* a popular set for Tankers despite any ill opinion the set may have on these boards.

If the problem is perception, then why perpetuate it? Stalker's aren't single target focused just because they rid one AoE for a strong ST burst. In fact, the way Stalkers can potentize any damaging attacks make having one less AoE not much of a detriment. And what do you think the devs will do when they proliferate Ice melee? Or Fire melee? Or Axe/Warmace? Do you honestly believe they'll remove *all* AoE attacks from those sets? And do you honestly weigh the whirling attacks so heavily vs team performance? Whirling attacks that are really no better than the infamous Whirling Hands?

It's extremely irritating, bordering on hypocritical, every time I hear the complaint. The excessive whining about mobs dying before you can get to them, how useless they are in teams but whipping out a moderate-to-low short-ranged PBAoE is suppose to change that? For any melee!?

Tankers aren't around for their ability to do damage. Invalid argument.

The perception problem is not that they are single target focused, the perception problem is that a single target focused AT is not desirable. The fact that stalkers are single target focused is not refutable. The vast majority of stalker melee sets have zero ability to damage multiple targets at a time. They don't even have a damage aura in any secondary to help.

I'm not arguing this point. I like stalkers. They're as good as brutes and scrappers to me.

I think they won't, but if they do, it'll be like Elec keeping its T9.

It will lose its only PBAoE, and likely the cone as well.

Let's worry about those getting ported to scrappers first. As tanker sets initially, they are heavy on AoE and most likely will not get ported at all.

More than likely, yes. It still doesn't matter, because they will gut the potential to do AoE damage regardless, which is what makes stalkers single target focused. Claiming anything else is daft.

Claiming that the single target focus is a bad thing is debatable. Again, I don't think it is, but you can't ignore the fact that the single target focus exists.

They are much better than Whirling Hands.

Eh, people rag on ST damage like you don't really need it, when there are times you do need it. Whenever I'm on an AOE focused character (my Huntsman, for one), I find myself wishing for more ST damage. It's a perception issue. And if mobs are constantly dying before you can get to them, so what? Means your team either needs to up the difficulty, or you're having fun steamrolling. Enjoy the ride. I was on a Blaster heavy Synapse this weekend, and things were dying before I could target and fire sometimes. I was commenting on how great the team was.

And yes, for regular mobs, AOE damage is quite nice, but that's how the game is set up. Until the devs come up with some different way of setting up the game in that regard, people may keep having the wrong perception (if all I needed was AOEs, my Blasters wouldn't use their ST attacks so often).

For an added tweak to Stalkers, I don't think Cal Trops as an inherent is going to do it. The debuff from a successful Assassin's Strike is a lot more useful, and making that more of a guarantee would probably be a better buff. Or tweaking their damage amounts, etc.

I don't really see Cal Trops changing people's minds, either. It's not that amazing of a power (though it is quite useful... I have it on my Dev Blaster and my Nin/Nin Stalker). How is a slow/fear patch that does minor DoT going to make people want Stalkers?

The changes some issues back were much better and more significant, and people still don't get the value of having more crits, controlling crits, and debuffs from AS (even though I notice when that debuff has landed/worn off). If people ignore those, they're going to ignore Cal Trops.

Eight out of ten stalker attack sets have an attack that can hit more than one target. Five out of ten have more than one attack that can hit multiple targets. While some of those AoEs are small cones, most sets do have an AoE that is large enough to easily hit two or three targets and some sets can regularly hit more than that.

I am not sure you actually know what powers the stalker attack sets have, so it is hard to believe your claim about its single target focus. You claim Fiery would likely lose both (using the scrapper version as base) its AoEs, which is a sure sign you do not understand what is in stalker attack sets. Why would that happen? One AoE would be dropped for AS and taunt/confront would change to placate. It would keep the other AoE(s), just like all the other sets with more than one AoE have up to this point.

While I agree that losing an AoE often makes stalkers less capable in that department, in the general sense they have significantly more than zero ability to damage multiple targets at a time. And they can supplement what ability they do have with an AoE from the APPs.

Mistake on my part. I have been ignoring cones.

The fact remains that they are more single target focused than scrappers. That is not debatable.

"Ow, ow, can't run! Ow! O-"
BEEP BEEP BEEP
"WHAT THE--"
BLAMF

Whirling Hands is a piece of crap. I never found it to be any significant source of damage. It's easier for my Energy Melee Brute to just single-target everything to hell rather than use Whirling Hands for actual AoE. Sure, it's nice to use to shave some health off of enemies, but honestly I find it faster to just punch things one by one. My Axe/WP Brute does Whirling Axe, boom. Everything has a significant chunk of HP missing and they're also on their backs.

Also I highly doubt Stalkers will ever get Fire/Ice Melee. Ever.

Argument invalidated by Assassin Strike powers.

Don't the two attacks deal the same amount of damage? I agree that the secondary effect is more useful though.

Actually, they probably do. The thing is, Axe has more AoE than Energy and Whirling Axe is far more noticeable after you've already laid down an AoE. I suppose if I took Dark Obliteration on my Energy Melee Brute I'd see some difference with Whirling Hands. However, without considering outside sets/changes, Whirling Hands doesn't do jack squat for me.

Energy melee is not popular anymore. There are so many better choices.

Are you talking to me? Is it your suggestion that AS is proof that Stalkers are single target focused?

This was tried back when Stalkers got buffed originally. It broke the game in ways that would make an 8 Defender team cry.

I'm not sure how to improve Stalker contribution to teams. Although if anything were to be made inherent I would rather see AS get that treatment rather than hide.

I definitely would like to see Stalker build up being %100 but that's unrelated to the discussion at hand.