(Warning: Highly Volatile Topic) Is Ghost Widow a Mary Sue?

Now before you flame me all to hell and back by either support or hate. (Yes, it can be possible to flame with blind support) realize that regardless of the evidence, debunks, support, or outcry you might see in this thread, the question about whether you like Ghost Widow (the character) lies solely with you and that should be all that matters.

Now then, let's look at the facts that I am presently aware of-

1. Ghost Widow is beautiful, loved by her allies and fans (both in and out of the game's universe) and respected of or feared by her enemies for her power.

2. Ghost Widow, despite being a villain who ascended to general rank under Lord Recluse and possibly his right hand as well, she is still portrayed with a great deal of sympathy (despite being a monster who ordered a woman to kill her lover to just to prove her loyalty).

3. Ghost Widow's alternate incarnations or analogues are also supposed to be beautiful and powerful.

4. Ghost Widow's costume is highly exclusive, possessing two capes, namely flowing hair, a waist cape that was not even available for Widow PCs at launch, and a color that actually isn't replicable in the present palette system and possessing the night widow patter we also cannot use.

5. Ghost Widow has a very cool unique Power, and PCs can get it too, but hers is much much more powerful as a mag 100 hold, and hers is an AoE. And when players found a means to defeat this since it bypassed all conventional mez-protection, the Devs sought to nerf the players abilities.

6. Ghost Widow's whole powersets are unique! She's supposed to be a dominator but she uses Dark Miasma, a Dark ARMOR power, and otherwise uses her special patron powers and Dark Blast, meaning unlike a real dom, she only needs to close into melee for a quick heal, which she can also do from a ranged with Drain Life and Twilight Grasp.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

I think you misappropriate what a Mary Sue even is. What you describe is an iconic character, not an unreasoably favoured one.

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Originally Posted by AzureSkyCiel 1. Ghost Widow is beautiful, loved by her allies and fans (both in and out of the game's universe) and respected of or feared by her enemies for her power.

So is Tunnel Rat.

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2. Ghost Widow, despite being a villain who ascended to general rank under Lord Recluse and possibly his right hand as well, she is still portrayed with a great deal of sympathy (despite being a monster who ordered a woman to kill her lover to just to prove her loyalty).

So is Scirocco, whose entire story is one of human folly and human tragedy, and whose only apparent motivation seems to be to make the world a better place. So is, for that matter, Barakuda's backstory - she was just an ordinary diver who was somehow changed by the Coralax. In her words: "I didn't want to be a monster like... Like all of you!" So is, in fact, the backstory of the Wretch.

And if we look further, a lot of villainous contacts are given a great deal of sympathy. People like Captain Petrovic, who watched while Scrapyard was brutally murdered and carried the guilt of inaction for years, or even Dean McArthur, who was a PPD cop that got wronged by the system and disillusioned.

Almost universally, the Circle of Thorns are looked upon with sympathy for their plight despite being pretty definitive bad guys, and you'll notice that I entirely skipped Praetoria for obvious reasons.

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3. Ghost Widow's alternate incarnations or analogues are also supposed to be beautiful and powerful.

So are Miss Liberty's, Sister Psyche's (hell, sister Solaris wears an outfit to make Sleeze blush), Aurora Borealis (Check out Praetor Tillman's cleavage, yo!) and even Mynx/Bobcat, judging by that lounging pose. Oh, and Swan. Can't forget Swan.

Unless a female character is covered head to toe in armour (like Valkyrie) or riddled with ugly cybernetics (like Clamor) or otherwise meant to be specifically unattractive, all of their incarnation will be as attractive, if not more so.

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4. Ghost Widow's costume is highly exclusive, possessing two capes, namely flowing hair, a waist cape that was not even available for Widow PCs at launch, and a color that actually isn't replicable in the present palette system and possessing the night widow patter we also cannot use.

Foreshadow's costume is entirely unique, using off-model arms, I suspect using the Robotic Arms tech, something we can't do. Mirror Spirit's costume is similarly unique, sporting a distinctly Asian face (something the editor doesn't provide), a hairstyle with "hair loopies and a cape rig, as well as two cape rigs attacked to a unique robe. Scirocco is also unique, featuring a tunic with a hanging coat tail, unique headgear and a unique weapon, from what I can tell. Black Scorpion is COMPLETELY unique, featuring what is ostensibly a unique uni-model all to himself. The Statesman uses a cape that's not available to players and Lord Recluse has that eight-legged spider pack, when all players can get are the distinctly uglier four-legged Crab Spider backpacks. Captain Mako has a wholly unique fish head, when the game has nothing even close to resembling a fish head, with the majority of our monster heads resembling roadkill mammals that someone left out in the sun.

Oh, and lest we forget, Maelstrom has functional holsters, something that is not only wholly unique in both player and NPC pieces, but also something which was alluded to being impossible to do.

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5. Ghost Widow has a very cool unique Power, and PCs can get it too, but hers is much much more powerful as a mag 100 hold, and hers is an AoE. And when players found a means to defeat this since it bypassed all conventional mez-protection, the Devs sought to nerf the players abilities.

When players found ways to hold AVs, the developers introduced purple triangles. When players found ways to permahold the Hamidon, the developers redesigned the encounter. When players found ways to short-circuit the Katie Hannon TF, the developers made the Ten Times the Victory fight mandatory for mission completion. Balancing encounters so they work as designed is an ongoing process. And last I heard, that "nerf" was repealed before it even hit Live. Oh, and let we forget Jacks old idea that bosses should be team-only content, followed by the I4 boss buff that bombed.

Furthermore, Ghost Widow is hardly the only AV that has unique or strong powers. The Nemesis Staff, as used by players, is single-target, whereas the same power used by Fake Nemesis or Nemesis himself, is AoE, and a rather large one. Scirocco has a bunch of unique powers of his own, all of Black Scorpion powers are entirely unique to his model (well, and that of Dr. Quatrexin) and both Lord Recluse and the Statesman have signature powers of their own. The Statesman has his Zeus Lightning, which may or may not have transformed into a ground punch, and Recluse has, in addition to his Bane Spider reinforcements, a whole host of his own unique powers. And aside from Soul Storm, Ghost Widow's powers are just pastel coloured darkness, something which power custimization ought to be able to handle.

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6. Ghost Widow's whole powersets are unique! She's supposed to be a dominator but she uses Dark Miasma, a Dark ARMOR power, and otherwise uses her special patron powers and Dark Blast, meaning unlike a real dom, she only needs to close into melee for a quick heal, which she can also do from a ranged with Drain Life and Twilight Grasp.

Nosferatu uses Dark Blast, Dark Melee and Dark Armour, and I'm pretty sure he uses Chill of the Night, too. Positron, despite being a Rad/Rad Defender by design, nevertheless has access to Overload from Energy Aura, to say nothing of hit points and resistances to put Tankers to shame, which Defenders really shouldn't. Bastion has Energy Blast, Energy Melee and Energy Aura on him, as well. Synapse has Electrical Blast, Electrical Melee and what feels like Super Reflexes.

And that's just signature characters. Regular enemies mix sets all the time. Behemoths easily have access to Fire Blast, Fiery Melee and Invulnerability or, alternatively, Fiery Aura. Baphomet feels like he has all three and then some, and the Envoy of Shadows has Fire Blast, Fiery Melee, Fiery Aura AND Chill of the Night. Speaking of which, Infernal has half of Fire Blast, most of Battle Axe and some defence set which I think is Fiery Aura.

NPCs have never respected the same rules as players, not in power selection, not in power strength, not in stats. They cheat, because they pretty much have to.

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I think you're reading far, far too much into this. A Mary Sue is supposed to be a tacked-on character who puts established canon to shame and is beloved by all. Well, Black Scorpion hates her, Mako hates everybody, and while it looks like Scirocco likes her, he's actually trying to "save" her in a most patronising fashion. Additionally, the one time she tries to do something on her own, the narrative slaps her down hard and puts her in her place. She is strong, yes, but so are all AVs, and she does have unique powers, as has been the design principle behind signature characters. The story is not at all kind to her, either foiling her plans, painting her as a slave to fate or outright humiliating her.

If anything, Sister Airlia is much more a Mary Sue because she's never wrong.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

The character that I've always thought was an obvious Mary Sue is Statesman.

Jack even said that Statesman was a character that he created years before CoH/V in his table top RPG Champions game.

Statesman is supposed to be an Invuln/SS Tanker and yet he has a higher damage output than most Scrappers. In game, our characters might be able to take a Rikti dropship if there are 50 or more of us with a select combination of powers, but according to game lore, Statesman knocked a Rikti mothership out of the sky by himself with his bare hands.

So yeah. Maybe it's just me. Obvious Mary Sue.

Didn't Statesman actually just fly -thought- the Mothership?


Like it was in his way?


Yea.

Ghost Widow? No. Jackma- Statesman? Yes.

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

QR: What is a Mary Sue....?

IIRC, Positron was also DevPositron's old Champions PnP character.

One thing to note though is that Mary Sue traits, such as the ones espoused in those ridiculous Mary Sue Litmus testers, are not bad. When written well and setting appropriate, they can make very good characters. When not written well, and when not setting appropriate? They can make terrible characters.

Same with good character traits.

A sympathetic villain is not a sueish thing. It can be a good thing. Whether a well-intentioned extremist or someone who simply fell down the wrong path.

In this setting, it's natural to expect people to have unique, strong powers.

In comic book settings, appearance tends to alternate between handsome/beautiful, and ugly, with little in-between.

Signature characters are signature for a reason. Desdemona, Maelstrom, W.I.S.D.O.M, The Freedom Phalanx, Arachnos, so on. They get the fancy cool power sets and costumes and emotes (like Boobcat's lounging emote.)

A Mary Sue is made as such by their collected traits. Pointing out that others share this trait or that trait doesn't make the subject not a Mary Sue, it just means that others might have some of the same qualities. You wouldn't argue that tigers are not felines by pointing out that dogs have four legs and rabbits have fur and piranha eat meat.

I usually see a Mary Sue type as being a wish fulfillment projection of the author and since I don't know who was behind Ghost Widow, it's hard to say.

I think the argument could be made that all of the original Freedom Phalanx members named after developers are Mary Sue's. Statesman is a more obvious Mary Sue than others.

Anyways, I find myself agreeing that the original poster does not know what a Mary Sue is.

A Mary Sue is when an author of a story inserts their own self into the story in such a way as they become the central point of the story. A Mary Sue is a character that entirely represents the author alone, and is inserted purely for the benefit of the Authors Ego. A good example of this can be find in Girl Genius: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20051212

In the Girl Genius world, the Super-Heroes of the story are the Heterodyne Brothers. A character retelling one of the Heterodyne Brother's adventures inserts her own self into the story, making herself not only a love interest, but also more competent and effectively more powerful than the Heterodyne Brothers themselves.

In City of Heroes, I think it's probably fair to say that several signature characters, such as Manticore (Sean Fish), War Witch (Melissa), BaB's (Chris Bruce), Castle (Castle), are also Mary Sue's since they have appearences in the game's canon story. However, I think it'd be hard to say that any one of them is an overpowered egomaniac. I don't know that each of the developers wrote their own character biographics, since some developers have picked existing canon lore characters rather than create new ones (Dr. Aeon, Television, Black Scorpion).

As far as I'm aware, the person behind the Ghost Widow character has never released any personal info: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Ghost_Widow_(Developer)

From the aspect of creating a character with the sole intent of having an ego trip, Ghost Widow just doesn't hold up.

just from seeing the posts alone that actually debunk this quite nicely, I now have another question to ask... Is it possible to delete this thread while it's still decent?

Also Sam, on the note of Scirocco's sympathy, had mostly imagined that it was far more downplayed compared to Ghost Widow's, namely that until a Manticore lore post (which, yes, may still be questionable), Scirocco's "curse" was just something he made up to psychologically cope with the fact that he is actually evil, and unlike Ghost Widow, it was brought to the player's attention. (I mean, he attempted to remove all free will from the world in his betrayal arc!)

And yes, I seem to have fully misunderstood the full concept of Mary Sue, though I had thought Self-insertion was not entirely needed, but only what the author felt was cool. (After all, an author can admit weakness about themselves but can defend or coverup weaknesses of a fictional creation of theirs)

Finally, to Je Saist, well you do make a decent argument, when most of the Devs picked their in-game avatars After-the-fact, I think they dodge the bullet on the Self-insertion domain similarly to Gabe and Tycho.

Also, on the Note of Lord Recluse, yes, it was my oversight that in terms of Hax he's probably the Worst offender since his listed AT is Master Mind, but he has a powerful array of attacks, crazy resists, and can summon two boss-class henchmen. Though he may make up for it since he has no support skills for his henchmen.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.

The god modding and mary sueing of signature characters has always been one of my major beefs with the writing in most of this game. Lord Recluse is highest on my list personally.

I understand the desire for common framework and story based play. But I think my preference in this sort of game has always leaned more towards sandbox environments with open narrative created between players as they navigate the gamespace.

Ghost Widow is closer to an Anti Sue than a Mary Sue, but even that is a stretch.

Sueness is relative to setting. Character traits that would brand a character as a hell-worthy Sue in most settings barely register in a superhero work.

That's not entirely true je saist.

The lead developer(Zeb Cook IIRC) for CoV actually used Recluse as his red name. Hmm Lead Dev on CoV, CoV being about Recluse...seems Mary Sueish to me.

After he left some Producer took up the name.

We had a Lord Recluse during the early CoV days.

Can't recall if that was Shane or not. Or the D&D guy. Been too long.

Also, War Witch - wasn't she created for the comic first? And later used by Melissa B?

Edit - wow, I was way late on this one.

I don't recall any mention of Recluse anywhere in the game before CoV came out. If there is then that changes things.