(Warning: Highly Volatile Topic) Is Ghost Widow a Mary Sue?
By
AzureSkyCiel,
Posted on: 2010-09-17 02:54 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Mary Sues are written such that they have no major flaws and such that every other character likes them except several protagonists who are horribly flawed precisely because they don't like the Mary Sue.
Recluse and Ghost Widow don't have such admiration from their in-game peers. Ghost Widow's admiration comes from the libido of out-of-game guys who dig a hot goth chick.
Except for an admiring public from afar, no one in-game likes Statesman. His power and longevity makes him aloof and seemingly unconcerned about individuals. His peers 'get along' with him at best.
Besides, you get to beat up all three in-game, knocking them off the Mary Sue pedestal of perpetual triumph.
BTW: Zeb Cook and Serdar Copur both played Lord Recluse on the forums. Cook went to the Stargate MMO and Copur went to John Romero's developing MMO.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
All of the signature character's based on characters the devs played offline before the game was made are Mary Sues.
Positron (the dev) created: -Positron: a Defender with more HP than most Tankers. -Maelstrom: a Blaster with Dual Pistols and Martial arts (despite what the web site says about Energy Melee). Then we've got: -Manticore: a Natural Defender with massive HP that can be set on fire, take a direct lightning strike, and be punched in the face by super strong power armor and shrug it off. -Lord Recluse: a Master Mind with thousands of henchmen, energy melee, invulnerability, and VEAT attacks. ...just to name four. Most of the signature characters have exclusive powers made only for them, don't have the disadvantages for the ATs they're supposed to be (tough Blasters, Tankers with massive damage) or they simply defy all power set restrictions and brandish dual swords, guns and martial arts at the same time if they feel like it. The devs are the only ones who can realize their characters the way they want to, and they flaunt the rules of the universe to do it, so that makes them all Mary Sues in my book. |
1. Then you don't understand the term Mary Sue.
2. Almost all the signature characters of AV/Hero status get uniquely rolled powersets regardless of whether the character was played by a Dev in some pen and paper RPG game or invented by the Dev.
The Powers team gives them the powers, not the designer of the character. And all AVs/Heroes get the same overpowered HP, and PToD, and attacks not available to players. These sig characters *can't* be built like a player character because they have to be powerful enough to take on 8 player characters at once.
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Except for Maelstrom. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
These sig characters *can't* be built like a player character because they have to be powerful enough to take on 8 player characters at once.
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He couldn't take on 8 of anything at once.
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What?! People with incredible, super-human powers in a game about superheroes and supervillains?! 
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When an author inserts a character they created into an ongoing fiction and affords said character attirbutes and advantages that go against the established rules of the universe and are extraordinarly powerful with few or no negative traits (or if they have negative traits, they're intended only to illicit sympathy).|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
1. Then you don't understand the term Mary Sue.
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| And all AVs/Heroes get the same overpowered HP, and PToD, and attacks not available to players |
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Yes,|
Originally Posted by Jetpack
Also, War Witch - wasn't she created for the comic first? And later used by Melissa B?
Edit - wow, I was way late on this one. |
Generally, characters arising from roleplaying games can be natural targets for accusations of "Mary Sue-dom." Accurately, true. I've had GM's that made NPC's that they then made more central to the story (and the story's outcome) than the players. I've had players-turned-GM that put their original characters in influentiual and lofty roles in their worlds. While not NECESSARILY a case of wish fulfillment... it sure looks that way sometimes, doesn't it?
"Mary Sues" often are seen as being more virtuous, more heroic, more capable, and more correct than seems possible... but we're also in a genre where the greatest tales are ones of heroism, skill, and investigation leading to solving great troubles. Are all such characters Mary Sues? Can you not BE a flawed character that, when faced with a challenge, made the RIGHT decision?
Many of our characters could be considered "Mary Sues" simply because... well, they're heroic, our stories center around them, and we assume their roles online. Again, its' overused. ((I personally enjoyed the irony of watching a roleplayer snub more heroic "Mary Sue" roleplayers for not having the depth of character that his immortal-around-since-before-creation-shattered-soul-unjustly-condemned-to-hell had. Wish fulfillment comes in many forms)). Again, its an unfair and inaccurate label that just illustrates the meaninglessness the label has become.
It's rather common for even professional authors to add characteristics of themselves into their work. It isn't necessarily "wish fulfillment" as much as 'writing what you know" but it is to a small degree self-projection. When they become the heroes- the ones who prevail- in their stories, are we reaching Mary Sue-dom? Remember that Stephen King has done this- frequently making authors the heroes of several of his books ... and you can even look at Tom Sawyer and Huck Finn as idealized fantasies of youthful adventure by Mark Twain. Mary Sue?
In (critically-acclaimed) Grand Torino, Eastwood's character appears initially too flawed to be a Mary Sue-- he's prejudiced, alienated with his family, generally angry at the world, and dying of lung cancer... but its a story of him overcoming that prejudice and curbing that anger, so they become plot points to hilight his strength of cancer.. Heck, even the impending death emboldens him to his final act of bravery. The character's a hero, eventually showing a strength of character that many would envy. Wish Fulfillment? Larger than life? not so flawed? Mary Sue? I'd never call it that, but others have.
It's an overused term that outlived its usefulness, now so broadly applied and generalized that it lost any value it may have had.
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Yeah... It... kinda does....|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
Just because you have a whole caste of Mary Sues, doesn't make them not Mary Sues.
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When you've got an entire cast of amazingly awesome characters you don't have a cast of Mary Sues, anymore. Instead you have a -cast-. When ALL of the cast are held to the same rules of awesome there is no "Stand out" Mary Sue.
And while the cast has all sorts of awesome Mixed powers (Control, blast, debuff, or armor) Look to the Epic Pools. They fill in what you normally don't have. You're fighting level 50 (generally) AVs when you hit up the Phalanx or Recluse's Lieutenants. Which means they picked powers from their ancillary power pools. Whoop-dee-doo.
-Rachel-
Mary Sue is more about bad writing than bad character design. In the same way that calling eyes "emerald orbs" isn't bad because eyes can't be green, but because "emerald orbs" is a freakin' stupid phrase to use for "eyes", Mary Sue isn't about some particular feature the character has, but about the way they're handled. The single defining trait of a Mary Sue is:
A character who is meant to draw all attention to themselves, at the expense of plot and all other characters.
So, bad things don't happen because the plot demands it, bad things happen so that the Mary Sue can show off. Other characters are props who have no life and no purpose beyond praising/opposing Mary Sue. Her hair/eye/skin color, abilities, pets and so on are all there to draw attention to her.
You can easily write Statesman as a character who is at the center of the CoH universe, where every mission is along the lines of "investigate the evil cult discovered by Statesman" and "fight of the group of Arachnos who are after Statesman". And it's equally possible to write Statesman as an interesting character in a bigger plot, making his immortality and invulnerability have real downsides that play into the large themes of the work (troyhickmantroyhickmancommongrounds).
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Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Mary Sue is more about bad writing than bad character design. In the same way that calling eyes "emerald orbs" isn't bad because eyes can't be green, but because "emerald orbs" is a freakin' stupid phrase to use for "eyes", Mary Sue isn't about some particular feature the character has, but about the way they're handled. The single defining trait of a Mary Sue is:
A character who is meant to draw all attention to themselves, at the expense of plot and all other characters. So, bad things don't happen because the plot demands it, bad things happen so that the Mary Sue can show off. Other characters are props who have no life and no purpose beyond praising/opposing Mary Sue. Her hair/eye/skin color, abilities, pets and so on are all there to draw attention to her. You can easily write Statesman as a character who is at the center of the CoH universe, where every mission is along the lines of "investigate the evil cult discovered by Statesman" and "fight of the group of Arachnos who are after Statesman". And it's equally possible to write Statesman as an interesting character in a bigger plot, making his immortality and invulnerability have real downsides that play into the large themes of the work (troyhickmantroyhickmancommongrounds). |
Very good.
That brings the term "Mary Sue" back to a very narrow and useful context.
... if only more people used it that way.
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She was created first. In the first promo comic in fact. I'm not sure at what point she took over War Witch, but consider this:|
Originally Posted by Jetpack
Also, War Witch - wasn't she created for the comic first? And later used by Melissa B?
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War Witch was reasonably written in the comic with the limitations of the low-mid level Ice/Fire Blaster she was. Then she died.
This happened before Melissa was made lead dev.
Now that she is, if they bring War Witch back from the dead in i20 and she starts picking up buildings, deflecting meteors with her perfect teeth in between bouts of Blizzard, Burn and Mag 100 Soul Storm...
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Their NPCs, and 'End Bosses' for that matter. No ones playing them. And no, actually, no NPC has DB, guns and martial arts. Some may have a weapon set and another combat set; that's because it avoids re-draw. Maelstrom, for example, has DP/Martial Arts, but wouldn't be given DP/DB. That breaks the re-draw rule. Heck, Kadabara Kill (*RUDE WORDS*) has three sets; Gravity/Kin/Empath irrc. But none of them have re-draw.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
All of the signature character's based on characters the devs played offline before the game was made are Mary Sues.
Positron (the dev) created: -Positron: a Defender with more HP than most Tankers. -Maelstrom: a Blaster with Dual Pistols and Martial arts (despite what the web site says about Energy Melee). Then we've got: -Manticore: a Natural Defender with massive HP that can be set on fire, take a direct lightning strike, and be punched in the face by super strong power armor and shrug it off. -Lord Recluse: a Master Mind with thousands of henchmen, energy melee, invulnerability, and VEAT attacks. ...just to name four. Most of the signature characters have exclusive powers made only for them, don't have the disadvantages for the ATs they're supposed to be (tough Blasters, Tankers with massive damage) or they simply defy all power set restrictions and brandish dual swords, guns and martial arts at the same time if they feel like it. The devs are the only ones who can realize their characters the way they want to, and they flaunt the rules of the universe to do it, so that makes them all Mary Sues in my book. . |
The reason players don't get free combinations...well, just look at the other Super Hero MMO. That has free combinations. And it seems about as far from balanced as it can without actively trying.
If Arch Villain/Hero level foes weren't b@stardisingly nasty pieces of work 1) Where would the achievement be in beating them? 2) People would complain they were too easy.
Also, the NPCs that the Devs borrow the names of (and yes, borrow. David Nakayama picked Noble Savage, for example, after the development was done.) don't actually obey the AT laws that apply to players. 'Defender' and 'Mastermind' are only the closest approximation. Recluse is actually more of a level 54 'Dark Lord' than a Mastermind. Heck, 'Archvillain' is probably a better AT description, because that means an NPC, which means more set freedom.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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So you are saying that she is a Mary Sue because she COULD become one? What kind of logic is that.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
She was created first. In the first promo comic in fact. I'm not sure at what point she took over War Witch, but consider this:
War Witch was reasonably written in the comic with the limitations of the low-mid level Ice/Fire Blaster she was. Then she died. This happened before Melissa was made lead dev. Now that she is, if they bring War Witch back from the dead in i20 and she starts picking up buildings, deflecting meteors with her perfect teeth in between bouts of Blizzard, Burn and Mag 100 Soul Storm... . |
You are a criminal because you could become one.
"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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No he is insane because he c... nevemind, he's just insane.
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Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
So you are saying that she is a Mary Sue because she COULD become one? What kind of logic is that.
You are a criminal because you could become one. |
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No, I'm saying she's not a Mary Sue. WW is one example of the few signature characters who aren't.|
Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
So you are saying that she is a Mary Sue because she COULD become one?
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But she could easily become one if our lead developer felt like it.
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I still reject your application of the phrase as overly-broad... to the point of making it useless. It encompasses too much that it should not and loses the context of the phrase's origin.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
No, I'm saying she's not a Mary Sue. WW is one example of the few signature characters who aren't.
But she could easily become one if our lead developer felt like it. . |
Silver Gale's use is much more tightly-defined, useful, and consistent with that origin.
Man, who would want to create an author insertion character for a video game? You might as well just put your real name and tack "-Man" on the end of it. >_>
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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I get what a mary sue is... but why is it good/bad? that i don't quite get.
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Uh oh, this post gave me deja vu... I think we've beaten this dead horse before. (Hahah! See what I did there? DEAD horse! Because it's originally about Ghost Widow and she's dead!)
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Originally Posted by Lord_Thanatos
So you are saying that she is a Mary Sue because she COULD become one? What kind of logic is that.
You are a criminal because you could become one. |
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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For the same reason you don't want to go to a stand-up comedy act and see a guy who just stands there on stage with a large flashing large sign overhead that says "THIS GUY IS HILARIOUS. YOU SHOULD ALL LAUGH."
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Originally Posted by Sapphic_Neko
I get what a mary sue is... but why is it good/bad? that i don't quite get.
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She's a Lead Designer, not Dictator.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
No, I'm saying she's not a Mary Sue. WW is one example of the few signature characters who aren't.
But she could easily become one if our lead developer felt like it. |
As I mentioned above, it is the powers team (Castle and friends) who give the NPCs their powers.
Man, are you posterior sore because some AV pwnt you that you're crying about their power levels?
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Yes, it tends to be used for many things including "annoying character added to existing cast", "obvious stand-in for author", and "female character I don't like".
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Originally Posted by Chase_Arcanum
Very good.
That brings the term "Mary Sue" back to a very narrow and useful context. ... if only more people used it that way. |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aS6qpIlJCfk
I can't believe somebody remembered that trailer from what 2004? Kudos's to your memory
Now if he could fly through the ship, and it's shields, why couldn't he stop it from crash landing right in the middle of downtown?
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Yeah, general problem with new-phrase creation. |
Originally Posted by Silver Gale
Yes, it tends to be used for many things including "annoying character added to existing cast", "obvious stand-in for author", and "female character I don't like".
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- Some will use it in the original context, which, in this case, pointed to specific characteristics of an object of derision.
-Others will see it used mockingly but not grasp its original context. They'll start applying it to unrelated things that they just want to mock.
-Soon, people apply it just to things they don't like.
-Those things will eventually have people that DO like them, who are going to see the Mary Sue label used, not know what it originally meant.
-Eventually, some of these people will grow to identify with the label, now losing all context and value, and proudly declare "I'm mary sue and proud of it"
- and yes, before you ask, I did check to see if "mary sue" was available on any of the servers. You sickos already took it. Now what do I call my omnipotent clairvoyant invulnerability tanker, dammit?
Make it a male and call him Gary Stu
All of the signature character's based on characters the devs played offline before the game was made are Mary Sues.
Positron (the dev) created:
-Positron: a Defender with more HP than most Tankers.
-Maelstrom: a Blaster with Dual Pistols and Martial arts (despite what the web site says about Energy Melee).
Then we've got:
-Manticore: a Natural Defender with massive HP that can be set on fire, take a direct lightning strike, and be punched in the face by super strong power armor and shrug it off.
-Lord Recluse: a Master Mind with thousands of henchmen, energy melee, invulnerability, and VEAT attacks.
...just to name four.
Most of the signature characters have exclusive powers made only for them, don't have the disadvantages for the ATs they're supposed to be (tough Blasters, Tankers with massive damage) or they simply defy all power set restrictions and brandish dual swords, guns and martial arts at the same time if they feel like it.
The devs are the only ones who can realize their characters the way they want to, and they flaunt the rules of the universe to do it, so that makes them all Mary Sues in my book.
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