Anime ruining Comic Books?
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2010-09-08 10:03 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Ah, so you have hard data for this then.|
Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
Guess which makes up a greater percentage of the medium.
Hint: It's comic books. |
"'Opinions'? What are those?"
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They're what people hide behind when accused of being wrong.|
Originally Posted by Cowman
Ah, so you have hard data for this then.
"'Opinions'? What are those?" |
All I need to point to is DC and Marvel. They make up far more of comic books than any of the crappy stuff does of anime/manga.
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Ah, I see.|
Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
They're what people hide behind when accused of being wrong.
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So when I say that I enjoy more DC and Marvel comics than anime stories, I'm NOT just expressing my personal preference. I'm actually committing a falsehood.
Good to know how incredibly wrong I am about my own opinions.
Arcanaville, I think you're right but I also think that I am justified in doing so as we have to look at the dominants of that medium. Marvel, DC, Image and a few others are the dominants and besides that... when we say comics we are talking about DC, Marvel, and Image and not other no-name companies.
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I'm not sure about that. Collectively they might account for more published issues or actual printed copies, but what really matters if you're going to judge an industry I think is number of titles. You wouldn't consider Archie and Jughead to be representative of the entire industry if they happened to single handedly print a billion of them.|
Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
All I need to point to is DC and Marvel. They make up far more of comic books than any of the crappy stuff does of anime/manga.
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In terms of actual titles, I don't know that the Marvel and DC core titles actually swamp out the Manga titles, or even necessarily all of the independent titles and Marvel and DC published non-core titles combined. I'm not even sure how you'd go about trying to judge that. Would you count completed titles that are no longer running, but still in print as a Manga (or comic) title? Would you count what shows up on a comic book shop's shelves (where Marvel and DC have an significant edge most of the time), or what you could buy from Amazon, or some combination of the two?
And to be honest, I think most people (honestly, myself included) aren't good judges of what's crappy manga. And we know that, and thus don't judge as harshly. There's a cultural distance to a lot of it (and I'm actually Japanese, but not nearly enough so) which means for many people in the United States manga either connects, or fails to connect. If it connects, its "good" and if it doesn't connect its "weird." Its rarely "bad" because its hard to judge the bad within its proper context. I know the rules and I know the culture: I can judge for myself whether a western comic book is good or complete crap. Its beyond my experience to declare a manga a complete waste of paper most of the time, because I'm never sure if, and often suspect, I'm missing something and making a culturally inappropriate judgment.
I know what I like when it comes to manga. I don't believe I'm fit to judge what's objectively good or bad except at the extremes. I'm sure there's a Joe Q in Japan somewhere screwing something up as we speak. I just can't tell what it is. I'm sure someone in Japan can, though.
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I think currently...Japan's equivalent of Joe Q. is Kubo Tite >.>
Kubo Tite is a Mangaka and nowhere close to Joe Q. To be like Joe Q one would have to be a chief editor in charge of Shonen Jump or something like that and have direct influence on long running stories and cause them to ret-con. Yeah...so there is no such thing in Manga.
The closest to that is the people in charge during Dragon Ball Z's later run, after the Furiza Saga that forced Akira Toriyama to continue the story and eventually when Toriyama quit, forced the production of GT.
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People around here should keep in mind that the manga that comes out in the US is a tiny fraction of what comes out in Japan. And although I am a big manga fan, I'll say that there is a large amount of junk in the mix. The more awful stuff generally doesn't see international distribution. The ratio of good stuff to bad stuff is probably pretty comparable to US comics. But there's much more variety, since individual creators have much more independence.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
In terms of actual titles, I don't know that the Marvel and DC core titles actually swamp out the Manga titles, or even necessarily all of the independent titles and Marvel and DC published non-core titles combined. I'm not even sure how you'd go about trying to judge that. Would you count completed titles that are no longer running, but still in print as a Manga (or comic) title? Would you count what shows up on a comic book shop's shelves (where Marvel and DC have an significant edge most of the time), or what you could buy from Amazon, or some combination of the two?
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Also, one should keep in mind that the variety in manga is immense. Manga has genres that US companies wouldn't think of producing these days, such as playing sports. And cooking. And playing boardgames.
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Well, when I talk about comics I'm talking about what I read and know about, which includes core superhero titles but also includes the kinds of titles I mentioned. The industry is large enough that "comics" is almost as broad a term as "music." To pick the core superhero titles of Marvel, DC, and Image as the representatives of all of western comics is rather like picking tentacle hentai as the representative of Manga.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Arcanaville, I think you're right but I also think that I am justified in doing so as we have to look at the dominants of that medium. Marvel, DC, Image and a few others are the dominants and besides that... when we say comics we are talking about DC, Marvel, and Image and not other no-name companies.
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Also, Transmet, Preacher, Enigma, Planetary, 100 Bullets, Y: The Last Man, and League of Extraordinary Gentlemen were all published by either Wildstorm or Vertigo (the first two books of LoEG anyway) which means all of them are DC titles. That was kind of a deliberate choice on my part, to pick titles that were mostly "independent" from the core superhero titles of Marvel and DC but still published by one of the two bigs (and without meaning to, I ended up with nothing but DC titles, which unfortunately doesn't surprise me). Which is why I avoided obvious non-Marvel or DC titles like Sin City (Dark Horse), or ambiguous titles like Fallen Angel (which started at DC but went indie). Even the bigs publish lots of titles worth reading (and while I don't tend to like most of the "event" stuff dominating core superhero titles at the big 2, that's not to say the core superhero stuff isn't often worth reading as well).
I think public perception is starting to change with regard to the place classic superhero comics has as the exemplar of western comics industry. They are still the big money makers, but when we have movies mining comic books like V for Vendetta, Watchmen, The Crow, Wanted, Kick ***, 300, From Hell, Constantine (ouch, but still), Hellboy, Sin City, League of Extraordinary Gentlemen (ouch again, but still), and Road to Perdition (movie based on a comic based on a manga), and of course Scott Pilgrim, people are increasingly being exposed to the other side of the street.
I'll bet 90% of the people who went to see those movies didn't know most of them were based on comic books, but that awareness is improving. And as it does, the notion that comic books are mostly represented by the classic superhero titles is beginning to shift.
Importantly, the comic book buying audience mostly knows this to be true already. By the time the comic book buying audience can drive to the comic store, I think most know classic superhero comics are only a small fraction of what is out there.
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Fixed.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I think currently...Japan's equivalent of Rob Liefield is Kubo Tite >.>
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Gotta love Manofmanychars, He agrees with my conclusion based on the opposite of what I said >.>
The vast majority of anime is based of a pre-existing Japanese comic (manga).
So, a better question would be, "Are comics ruining anime?"
The Bacon Compels You.
If people have started recommending anime, I have to recommend my favourite show ever.
Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex.
The adventures of Public Security Section 9 against various threats, from crime to politics to war to corporations. The English Dub is quite frankly excellent, and the animation is top notch.
I think I've now rewatched all three parts of it (SAC is 26 episodes, the sequel, 2nd Gig is 26, and then there's a movie, Solid State Society) more than my other favourite anime, Bubblegum Crisis.
I'll also throw a heads up for Planetes too. A show about garbage collection in space. Quite realistic.
Is Anime ruining Comic Books? No.
Comic books are ruining comic books.
Fans, the high ups in the comic book industry, they're what's ruining comic books.
They let writers and artists get away with things that would frankly get someone fired in most other job markets, and never get hired back.
"Oh. I'm bored with this title. I want something new. So I'll stop half way through and let others finish it or just never let it be finished at all."
Or you get the higher ups like Joe Q. "I don't care how it is now, I want to change it to my way, and I don't care if it makes sense."
Comic books have lost consistency to the point that they're becoming less and less worthwhile.
With manga (at least with the manga ported over here) you tend to get a start and a finish. For those running long enough, you're not getting 20 different people's vision on it within a 2 year time frame.
Not to mention, comics are a visual media...so people pick up a book who's artwork they like, only to have it change out from them 5 issues later.
Good example...Gen-13. When it first came out, I enjoyed both the writing and art (not going to say it was the best ever for either, just that I myself enjoyed it).
Then what happens? A new artist! Okay! I still like the artwork and story I guess I can keep it up. Wait, new writer?! Wow, it's terrible. But the story is good, so I'll keep reading it. Wait what? New artist, and the artwork sucks (or didn't fit the comic, what have you), and I'm stuck with a terrible writer?! Okay...only so much I can take, I'm not going to pay for both a terrible story AND terrible artwork.
Oh look! New writer and artist and it's good! But I caught it to late, and now they're cancelling it.
Wait! It's back...only it's not back...it's different...wait WTF!
Oh! Now look! They retconned everything and are starting over! *Sigh*
Now that's just with a rather new comic. Lets look at it on an older title.
OMG! Big change is coming! That...hmmm...now...they're saying didn't happen. *Sigh*
OMG! Big change is coming! That...hmmm...wtf...no one wanted this. *Sigh*
Yes. A story that's been going on for 40-60 years needs to revamped, put up with the times a bit. But not a total roll reversal.
For instance. I'd be okay with Wonder Woman's costume change, IF, I knew it was part of a storyline that was going to have her back to the Wonder Woman costume and Wonder Woman I enjoyed as part of the story, rather than...well, if the fans don't like are new hip change, then we'll just say it didn't happen.
Or if they didn't say "We have a new movie coming out! We have to make changes to the comic to mirror the movie a bit more!" *glares at the X-Men movies* The Mystique change annoyed the hell out of me in the comics!
Oh! We're going to kill off a long running fan favorite character (or mess with them so much as to totally change them) to change things up! If it's not liked, we can always change it! If it is liked, well...we may or may not. At least for awhile!
I know for me, X-Men starting dying with the loss of my two favorite characters (one of which they started changing so much from his original self), of Jubilee and Gambit.
This has of course happened in other comics...I'm using some of my own personal examples.
From DC comics...huh...what...Power Girl and Super Girl...huh...what...I'm lost...wait what's going on?!
Killing off Bruce Wayne Batman is never a good idea. The fans know it won't last, so at least give them the opening right away to see it won't last. Instead of them sitting in the background getting invested in the new storyline, while the others are dropping it, so they may not even get to enjoy the new direction, because it's going to go right back to the basics...so why waste the money on it?
Or how everything is going to be changed ina year, when a new writer decides they know what's best!
If artists and writers started staying around for more than 1-24 issues, comics would be back on track to doing great. As it is now, you're getting a new person's vision of how it should be.
Artists and writers don't want to stay at one job, you know, like everyone else tends to have to do, because they know hey...they don't have to!
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The BrandX Collection
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Did they change Mystique?|
Originally Posted by BrandX
The Mystique change annoyed the hell out of me in the comics!
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I mean, I know they kinda did in that X-Men Forever mini, but that's pretty much been forgotten about.
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Power Girl's story was one of the things I greatly enjoyed going into the 52 series. After Crisis on Infinite Earths way back when, Power Girl never quite fit in. There were retcons on her origin, but they didn't really make sense. Then finally Supergirl showed up, and Power Girls' origins started shifting wildly. It turns out that time was trying to fit her in, and it wasn't working. And after Infinite Crisis, time stopped trying.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
From DC comics...huh...what...Power Girl and Super Girl...huh...what...I'm lost...wait what's going on?!
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Now after Infinite Crisis, Power Girl is just about the only character in DC whose origin hasn't been retconned. (Or you could say that she's been retconned back into a non-retconned state.) She's from the pre-CoIE Earth 2, which no longer exists. And yes, she's a parallel version of Supergirl.
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backgrounds what are they!?
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Originally Posted by Manofmanychars
Fixed.
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I hope you mean the English dub, dear chap |
Originally Posted by ketch
Next, get anything by Miyazaki. Princess Mononoke is a great one to start with; it has plenty of action, interesting characters, and the American dub is full of top notch actors. If you like this movie, Miyazaki has a long list of fine, fine works.
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By the sounds of it, the yankee dub somewhat mauled the story. And Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind. Beautiful bit of animation. Hell, it has Ian McKellen doing the voice of Lord Yupa (who's badass
)And Laputa, Castle in the Sky. And Porco Roso. And Howls Moving Castle (although the actual story petered off a bit in the end, to my mind). And you have to watch Spirited Away, which duely deserved all the awards it won.
Series wise? Read and watch Fullmetal Alchemist. Fantastic concept and story. Beautifually drawn and writen, and then animated.
Hellsing is another good one. Interesting story and very full of Action, yet without taking itself overly seriously. Copious ammounts of blood, though. Oh, and you'll have an evil little smirk every time you think of sparklepyres and exactly Alucard would do to them
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
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Walking into a bookstore and randomly picking title off of the manga racks is like going to your public library and randomly picking a book out of the fiction section. Manga is simply a story medium and can cover the entire range of genres and target ages. You go into the western TPB section and 95% is one DC or Marvel superhero or another.
I'm telling you this because not quite half of the manga you find in US bookstores will be romance or rom/com of one kind or another and not necessarily all geared for girls/women. Guys tend to have the harem genre for romance. One guy, a half a dozen girls interested in him to different degrees but he only really is interested in one, and she's been giving him the most mixed signals. Love Hina is the classic of this genre.
Then you have the "special/destined, train, fight, train, fight" series like Bleach, One Piece, Naruto, DragonBall, Yu Yu Hakusho. Also it may be "fighting" as in a sport, board game, art or even something left field like baking. Not all fighting is fist to face, sword to sword and leaping from rooftop to rooftop.
And you do have straight up action. Rurouni Kenshin, Fullmetal Alchemist, Trigun and Hellsing fall into that category.
It's just that you may need to look through a lot of manga titles at a bookstore before you find a story that catches your eye. There are a few manga search engines you can Google for or go look at Anime News Network's list of top manga as a place to start looking.
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Have you actually watched Naruto, or only watched the fans of Naruto?|
Originally Posted by Bin Man
I have not heard of one iconic character from Anime, the only thing i have heard about is Naruto and i really do not like that. Everyone has heard of Spider Man and Bat Man. Yet it is these characters who lose their origin within comic books.
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Because Naruto himself is a very iconic character that stands for some pretty high ideals and is quite a bit more complex than many of the fans make him out to be.
Superman is the same, most of the fans just think he's awesome because of what he can do. The people that can go into detail analyzing him and the metaphor he represents are in the minority, though a large number of the first set of fans can find and discuss the analysis to appear otherwise.
Iconic means that its a character that can be recognized right away. Superman is iconic to those of us brought up in places where he appears and is popular, but he is not universally so.
Goku is iconic (though I'm not particularly fond of Dragonball)
Ranma Saotome is pretty recognizable
Belldandy from Oh My Goddess
Vash the Stampede from Trigun
Sailor Moon
Dante from Devil May Cry
there are numerous anime icons...just because you don't recognize them does not make them so
also, I'm also someone who lost interest in DC and Marvel due to their insistence on never advancing the story. Changes and developments in character are negated by the next writer whose own developments are only just getting started when he's replaced and then they're negated and the cycle starts again.
I am not interested in story by committee.
Give me one author with a clear beginning, middle and end.
Then, if you want a sequel, move on to a sequel, don't just keep telling the story about Batman...we should be telling the story of Batman's heir's heir, whether by blood or otherwise.
Spiderman and Mary Jane should have passed into retirement years ago.
Instead they persist in keeping Spiderman an angsty teen (no matter what his physical years) with no personal growth that isn't negated a few seasons of issues down the road.
anime didn't ruin comics for me....I went to anime and manga because most big name Western comics were unsatisfying and formulaic. The artistry of the early storylines is gone, replaced by boards of executives collaborating with writers about which fad they can exploit this print run.
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
I'm honestly surprised when some people don't know who Goku is...Dragonball is probably barging on Disney levels of merchandising...
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For those interested in a good manga search site try this: http://www.mangaupdates.com/ Can search by genre, category, rating, author, etc.. and then it provides handy links to whichever scanlator may be translating it currently.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Walking into a bookstore and randomly picking title off of the manga racks is like going to your public library and randomly picking a book out of the fiction section. Manga is simply a story medium and can cover the entire range of genres and target ages. You go into the western TPB section and 95% is one DC or Marvel superhero or another.
I'm telling you this because not quite half of the manga you find in US bookstores will be romance or rom/com of one kind or another and not necessarily all geared for girls/women. Guys tend to have the harem genre for romance. One guy, a half a dozen girls interested in him to different degrees but he only really is interested in one, and she's been giving him the most mixed signals. Love Hina is the classic of this genre. Then you have the "special/destined, train, fight, train, fight" series like Bleach, One Piece, Naruto, DragonBall, Yu Yu Hakusho. Also it may be "fighting" as in a sport, board game, art or even something left field like baking. Not all fighting is fist to face, sword to sword and leaping from rooftop to rooftop. And you do have straight up action. Rurouni Kenshin, Fullmetal Alchemist, Trigun and Hellsing fall into that category. It's just that you may need to look through a lot of manga titles at a bookstore before you find a story that catches your eye. There are a few manga search engines you can Google for or go look at Anime News Network's list of top manga as a place to start looking. |
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to some degree, goku is a retelling anyhow. the original dbz is a sci-fi retelling of the journey west, and he is basically sun-wukong. so there are points to say that for a lot of kids familiar with the cultural touchstone, they kind-of knew goku before he was goku.
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Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I'm honestly surprised when some people don't know who Goku is...Dragonball is probably barging on Disney levels of merchandising...
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*scratches head* wait, what?
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Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
to some degree, goku is a retelling anyhow. the original dbz is a sci-fi retelling of the journey west, and he is basically sun-wukong. so there are points to say that for a lot of kids familiar with the cultural touchstone, they kind-of knew goku before he was goku.
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Hint: It's comic books.
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