Another discussion about names

Thank goodness! Here I was worried you'd dismiss my points along with the points of those who were dismissive.

Or, if not you, at least others.

Though I'd also like to point out that, when the devs asked, they asked a TINY group representing the population of the game, which isn't an appropriate sampling at all. Even the forum population is hardly an adequate sample-size for such a poll.

I'd like to propose, however, a different solution to the issue. A massive e-mail to all currently active accounts for a vote. It would, quite decisively, clear any question the Devs might have up nigh-instantaneously.

-Rachel-

I'd have no problem living with the results gotten from an email inquiry. If the demand for it is substantial, and the devs agree to implement it, my only hope is that it doesn't look ugly.

You really can't see that? Superhero names are iconic. Despite the occasional rare (and generally temporary) exceptions, there is one superhero of a given name, in a given universe, at a given time. Having 20 guys running around called Batman, totally unrelated to each other, just dilutes that concept.

Let's we do this DC's method.

We can incorporate it into the plot like PD.

So some Crey Tech guy finds a way to give even more people super powers (of their choosing no less) and starts registering them with exiting super powered (and retired/dead supers) names.

Then he reveals he has a massive off switch and creates a huge tragedy when it suits him best and everyone who elected to use someone else's name become depowered mid game.

Kidnap victims get murdered, flying heroes fall to their death, heroes get burned alive trying to rescue families form burning buildings.

Lex Luther sometimes makes me tingle.

Being subject to a restrictive naming which eliminates names from your acces entirely does NOT make you lazy or unimaginative. It makes you subject to game restrictions.

YOU are the one implying that if your sense character concept is so strong that you'd rather rather not compromise and take an alternate after consulting a thesaurus or resorting to foreign languages somehow makes you less of a person.

New player access is an excellent reason to open up the naming.

At this point in the game's life, however, I'd rather the resources go into correcting the issue in CoH2. The old timer "I got mine back when and everyone else can buy a thesaurus"-types can stay in CoH1!

I second this. The Hero Con data cannot be relied upon for exactly the reason you stated.

I'd open up to poll to everyone on the mailing list, including former players. Tons of MMO players have passed through COH, and occasionally return. The interest here is not only attracting new players, but retaining and also pulling people back.

Claiming that there are no names left makes one lazy and/or unimaginative.

No I didn't. I said if the are dead set on having a particular name they should see if it's available on one of the other servers. There's a very good chance that they'll find it available on one of them.

And yet whenever this gets brought up it's always the same players asking for it. The same players that have been here for years. No one has provided any data that backs up their claims that new players are having trouble thinking of names. No links to threads or articles where new players were saying that thinking up character names in CoH was too hard.

In this very thread there have been only 2 people that qualify as new players and neither of them as I recall were dead set against our having unique names.

It would probably be closer to the truth to say that old veteran players are having trouble thinking up new names.

Steam was right about the mass email to get this answered once and for all.

If that's the decision they choose to make with CoH2 that's fine with me.

I was about to try to elaborate upon a reason for opening up names, then I read the above statement in a post.

The fact that this person thinks these were choice names for an "Iconic Super Hero" character made me realize that anything I could say would be a waste of my time.

Ask yourself this simple question when creating a new character: If I were in a comic shop and saw a new comic titled (insert your character name here) would it perk your interest to buy it?

I can say for certain that "The Amazing Deep Friar" would not get my hard earned pennies and implying that a new player should be happy to be able to score such a choice name is preposterously funny.

As for presenting solid evidence that folks seem to be saying doesn't exist, as I stated in my previous post, I already play CO and none of the problems they claim will happen, actually happen. I have two names there which would be considered "common" type names, the rest are obscure. Of those two, I've run into a grand total of ONE other person with one of those names that ran past me once in the year I've played there.

And do you know that the amount of names using the insert numbers trick is obscenely low. I see perhaps one a month run past me with a name like that, unlike the many I see daily here in CoH.

I'm not bashing CoH, not by a long shot, and I like it overall best of the two super hero games that I both enjoy. I am only here saying that most of the problems that people are saying will happen. Don't.

Both sides of the argument actually get what they want, the one side can name their character exactly the name they had planned for, and the other side can run around and likely never encounter their "evil twin" thus preserving the "feeling" of their uniqueness during their play session.

And I only have one final point to make about all of this. One person's chance of seeing a name run past them once in a blue moon does not trump another person being forced to always see a name they are not completely happy with every time they log onto a character that couldn't be named to their liking.

In other words, I have to look at my character every time I log on and the entire time I'm playing. You on the other hand, will almost certainly never run into me while playing, and if you happen to do so, I will be gone seconds later as I run past you.

PS. If simply KNOWING that another person exists on a server with a similar name troubles you, then that is an altogether different problem, one that should be handled by trained professionals and not the peanut gallery that is this forum. That is not meant as an insult, but rather just good advice that I would give to any relative and close personal friend.

"Peace, and hug your mother at least once a week."

I've been totally civil to you. I merely asked for clarification because I want to understand your perspective. There's no reason to talk down to me.

This is an appeal to the genre, which is a valid thing to do, but not related to my question about character concept.

I do notice, however, that you agree that it does happen, but you dismiss it when it happens because it's rare, and usually temporary. I'm not saying you shouldn't dismiss it (some arguments and points should be dismissed), but I want to make it clear that this is what you are doing. People supporting non-unique naming have been accused of ignoring and dismissing the arguments of people supporting unique names. It's going on on both sides, as usual for debates, especially on the internet.

This aside wasn't really directed at you, as I don't recall you making that complaint.

"Diluting the concept" is what I'm having trouble understanding, but thanks for giving me a term for it. I understand what the phrase must mean-- having someone else with your name somehow makes your character concept less... potent. I just don't know why. Currently, there is no unique requirement for costumes, bios, or builds, all important aspects of a character concept, yet I've never seen anybody ask for any of these things to be enforced as unique. Does it not dilute your concept if someone else uses the same costume, bio, or build, as well?

Other people's character concepts have zero bearing on my character concepts. Maybe I'd be annoyed if someone copied my character in some significant way, because it would feel like they stole my ideas, but my character still retains his or her concept. The only way someone else could affect my character concept in any way is if they hacked my account and changed my name, costume, powers, or bio in some way that I couldn't revert. This is why it's confusing to me that someone else's name could have any effect on your character concept. I understand it impacting you in other ways that have been brought up in this thread, but not character concept.

Sorry, this is one of those situations where written communication doesn't convey tone very well, and I probably should give more thought to how I phrase things late at night. What I mean is, you and I obviously see this in a completely different way, which goes back to my original statement that there is no simple, logical way to resolve such an issue, because it isn't a logical issue.

Would I get the same vague feeling of dissatisfaction knowing that I wasn't the only 'AmazingGuy' out there, that some others would get knowing the name they had wasn't really the one they wanted even if a dozen other people had it? Yes. Would I rage quit over it? No, because I enjoy the game and the people in it far more. And when it comes right down to it, it is just a game, and not something to take too seriously.

When it comes right down to it, I would guess any chance of a change to the unique naming policy relies entirely on how long the Devs see CoH lasting. Only a year or two before CoH2 is heading our way, and I'd guess it just wouldn't be worth them doing anything. Longer than that, and it probably would be worth them getting a much larger sample of opinion as others have suggested. If only to settle the matter once and for all, whichever way it turns out.

No problem. Thanks for explaining.

I think the core of this whole discussion is a value difference. Some people value uniqueness more than the ability to get whatever name they feel fits their character best, and some people value the latter more than the former. You're right that most of us probably can't come to an agreement over it, outside of something game companies almost never do (PvP being an exception), like having a set of servers with unique names and a set with non-unique ones. Of course, that kind of defeats the primary reason I think the devs have interest in non-unique naming systems: Positron has expressed a desire for a "serverless" system like That Other Game had, to increase teaming opportunities. To add that to CoH, names would have to be made non-unique. I think that's why he asked about it at HeroCon.

I feel similar, but I would feel different about a new game, for the reasons I've posted before when explaining why I support non-unique names.

I would argue that you would be more likely to see people with the same name as you if you opened it up to non-unique than you would see bad spellings like you list above. Most of us would find another name rather than corrupt the spelling. If there wasn't a warning the name was taken then you wouldn't think of a new name.

If they had a vote I would vote against it. If they changed it I would deal with it, provided it wasn't horribly visible in game and I would like to see a warning pop up that the name was already in use so I could come up with something else.

No one really cares if you don't like the cool names I scored. The truth is you would speak derisively about any name I had posted out of pure vindictiveness because I'm not agreeing with you.

My character's names are no worse than any of these names, and the fact that you claim to think my names are bad just goes to show that you don't have much experience reading comic books. Comics have a long tradition of creating heroes with odd, satirical, or down right silly names. Some of them have their own comics and others are destined to be supporting characters.

DC names

Bat-Mite
Bad Samaritan
Big Barda
Bizarro
Blok
Boodikka
Bork
Bozo the Iron Man
Captain Carrot
Ch'p
Chunk
Clock
Color Kid
Dan the Dyna-Mite
Darwin Jones
Detective Chimp
Dingbats of Danger Street
Flodo Span
G'nort
Genius Jones
Gnarrk
Jack in the Box
Lagoon Boy
Little Cheese
Major Bummer
Off-Ramp
Pinkt the Whiz Kid
Peter Porkchops
Rubberduck
Scarlet Skier
Streaky the Supercat
Stuff the Chinatown Kid

DC Comics Super Hero Names

Marvel Names

Abraham Brown
Answer
Brass
Bling
Blink
Box
Box IV
Briquette
Brother Nature
Brother Tode
Bug
Burner
Butterball
Charcoal
Dirtnap
Dittomaster
Doorman
Doop
Doughboy
Dum Dum Dugan
Elsie-Dee
Fan Boy
Flubber
Hairbag
Honey Lemon
Kangaroo
Left Hand
Nanny
Needle
Poundcakes
Squirrel Girl
Stilt-Man
Sugar Man
U-Go Girl
Widget
Wink

Marvel Comics Super Hero names

This. Sweet Flying Spaghetti Monster, THIS.

Alternately if simply having to choose another name troubles you, then that is an altogether different problem, one that should be handled by trained professionals and not the peanut gallery that is this forum. That is not meant as an insult, but rather just good advice that I would give to any relative and close personal friend.

Cuts both ways really.

I would strongly disagree with such an email. There is no gaurantee the results would be clear or decisive.

Just look at that Informal Art Poll and giving two options. People voted but then added conditions or other options/suggestions to modify the vote (Option X but if such and such). Now do that on a larger scale. You already see that here with the suggestion that the same name can be used under one global account.

Also, who votes? Using the US as an example, just look times each election where the percent voting are as low as 20 or 30% of registered voters actually voting. What if only 25% of the registered users vote? Should they carry the decision, especially if the vote is 51% to 49%? That doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement to change the system if low voting and small margin of difference. Or like I mentioned above, what if an "option 3" gains votes and becomes the majority, then what? Players with multiple accounts - 1 vote or 1 vote per account?

How do you define victory? 51,111 votes no, 51,112 yes, therefore it is yes?

How likely is all that? Who knows, but those are just some possibilities.

Bill Z Bubba said it best IMO (and I will look for the post to link) about the cost benefit to work ratio will determine if things like this get added. If the devs see great benefit to the most players and the resources are such that it can be, then they will do things.

Dude, make up your mind. You were/are on at least one Devs ignore list already for calling them stupid from what I have read on the boards.

Or are you not the 'real' Johnny Butane?

I've already done the math on it, Diggis, slightly earlier in the thread. If a full 10% of players with the same primary power picked the same name you'd have a 1 in 72,800 chance of running into them if they spread out, equally, among the time-zones and so did everyone else, and everyone was equally spread among the servers.

If you alter the base ratios you alter the results, but it's -always- going to be small so long as players tend to name themselves after their powers and you offer up a fairly reasonable number for the percentage of same-names.

And that 1 in 72,800 doesn't include players using instanced mission maps, which are the primary method of teaming/fighting/playing City of Heroes. So you actually have a far -more- remote chance of seeing them.

And that argument only REALLY works for really common choices. Use your vaunted creativity and keep coming up with your awesome names noone else would ever think of. That further reduces your chances to 0. Since noone else would -ever- think of a name you've so cleverly devised with your vaunted creativity.

Is your immersion in having the one name to rule them all more important than everyone else's immersion in seeing Blaze- Blaze., BIaze, -Blaze, Bla-ze, and Blase? Your chances of having your immersion broken are, as previously shown, minuscule, minute, and remote. While this system -is- in effect, those of us who despise seeing hacked names are constantly having our immersion broken.

Please, add to this list in subsequent posts.

Pros of Unique Name
Characters are more concretely "Owned" by the person who has their name.
Immersion Saved for those who concretely "Own" a name.
No system changes required to maintain this status.
Impossible to "Grief" using someone else's name (though costume, bio, and near-name is fine)


Cons for Unique names
Players are forced to change from the name they had in mind.
Immersion breaking "Hacked" or l33tsp33k names.
Is another hurdle to jump when a server merge occurs (either forced or in a paradigm shift)
Some players give up on character concepts because they can't get a name they enjoy.
Cross-server teaming is impossible without changes to the system.

Pros of Non-Unique Names
Freedom to name your character as you see fit.
Sharp decline in "Hacked" or l33tsp33k names, leading to less immersion breaking
Less player frustration at the naming screen
Players can still be creative to get a name noone (or nearly noone) has.
More time spent playing the game than sitting at the name screen typing synonyms (total, not individual)
Less player-drop of concept characters due to names being available.
One less step to make when a "Serverless" environment or single-server environment becomes the norm.
Helps cross-server teaming attempts by making names no longer a hurdle.

Cons of Non-unique Naming
Requires a coding change
Immersion breaking at the rare times when two people with the same name meet (if they even care)
Removes the concrete feeling that one "Owns" a name.
Without monitoring or global-ties, could lead to griefing under false-identities.


So please. ADD to this list, show me more Pros and Cons to support your side, whether it's mine or not. I will obviously more clearly see the pros of the Non-Unique names and the Cons of the Unique ones, but help me see the other Pros and Cons, please!

Unique Pros: 4
Unique Cons: 5
Non-Unique Pros: 8
Non-Unique Cons: 4

-Rachel-

This is not the place for it, but the devs as a collective are surely not stupid. The have demonstrated they are capable of planning, designing and executing many features and systems for this game. I have complete faith they could alter the name system to allow duplicate names and anticipate and solve the problems that would arise from that.

On an individual level however, some particular devs have demonstrated things I've called them on.

-Lack of knowledge and respect for the super hero genre.
-Prioritizing design based on outdated fantasy MMO mechanics at the expense of being more faithful to the superhero genre.
-Only ever reaching for low hanging fruit and short changing players on the execution systems and features that should have been more fleshed out.
-On occasion, hypocrisy.


That's a few off the top of my head. None of which impact the devs ability as a group to pull of a change to the naming system or not.



.

I'm suggesting the simplest and best method to find out who wants what, and you're fighting me over the most minute details of democracy?

Even if only 30% of the playerbase -bothers- to vote that's still far more people voting than the ones at PAX. It's a far larger number of players who have the option.

No. I don't think having multiple accounts should be a key to voting multiple times. So I'll offer a more secure, but still not foolproof (since nothing ever is) method of voting.

A Webpage. The link for which is sent to the e-mail address of every account which is currently active or was active within the past year.

You use your account details to log onto the web page, then vote in one of two boxes separated by paragraphs of text. The former, Unique Naming, explains they'll keep the naming system as is, the latter explains what and why they would change it from the current system.

Click the box, press "Okay" get a warning that you only get one vote, click okay, the web-page registers your IP address and locks you out of further voting and it also registers your account as having voted (keeping you from voting multiple times on the same account)

Sure! Some people could use other accounts to vote by heading over to a family member's house, or resetting their IP for a new one, or register a ton of accounts the week before the vote and then running around town voting from various libraries and WiFi access points.

However, those people willing to go out of their way to cheat the vote are going to do so. The best we can do is make it uncomfortable for them to do so. Otherwise they'll just find other ways to circumvent any method we block them with.

The website logs all votes and tallies the score up on it's own, no need for a ton of wasted developer time combing through hundreds or thousands of e-mails. No option to add "Yes But" to the ballot. A Simple Majority wins (1 vote is enough to decide it)

Announce the vote a month in advance, give players a weekend in which to place their votes, tally it up. Done.

-Rachel-

What math? All I see is hand-waving of numbers on ONE possibility. You don't know what will happen in reality any more than any of us. Statistics can say anything.

For example from real life, right here and now in PA. You can look up the weather reports yourself. We were told yesterday afternoon rain - these people use modeling and computers to predict weather right? So we made plans for the morning. We wake up, and there is rain. Plans ruined. So a few numbers tossed around in a suggestion forum doesn't carry a lot of weight.

Yes, because details matter and things like the Informal Art Poll proved how giving just two choices gets complicated fast. This is an emotional issue and you are blowing off people's opinions and votes.

I could argue that 10% of the population votes and the vote is "yes" with only 50.1% of the vote. The devs go off and do "the people's will" because, hey, they voted for it. What do you think the response from the player will be when they log on a see multiple copies of the same name running around? I guess the devs should just say "Hey, you didn't vote, so we don't care."

And how do you deal with the Pandora's Box you are opening?

Names are important for concept some people say. Okay. But so are other things. For example:
- Opening up unlockable costume parts. Hey! Come on now, you voted to have multiple names added, we want a vote to have the devs program it so that if I unlock a part like from the ITF it is global or I can purchase it early from vet rewards. It is concept! Vote now!
- AT/powerset respecs: Hey! Come on now, you voted to have multiples names added, and now you devs add a new powerset that is my original concept for a toon. Make that AT/powerset respec now because we voted on it and the majority rules.
- AT/Powerset development: They did something like this before on the poll for sets to be added, but what about ones not planned or not in development yet. Ever see those posts on range/def ATs? Or what about /MA set for blasters? Vehicles? These are important concepts for some people - care to deny that? What will stop them from clamoring for player votes to get added or changed in the game?

You just make everything sound so simple and rosey. No players will ever get upset.

Almost a decent comparison...

See... We understand a -lot- about weather not everything, but a lot.

Numbers are fixed. Finite. They do not change. The number 1 will always be a value greater than 0 and less than 2, for example. There will never be a situation where the number 1 is less than 0 or greater than 2. But a change in air-pressure or wind can push a storm along and change a prediction from late to early. Can't be helped, you can never know all the factors.

1 is always less than 2.

I can give you the specific odds of meeting another player with the same name on the same server on the same day at the same time in the same zone. You might run into the guy, Sure!

But every day I play I see at least 1 person with a hacked name. Sometimes More than 1, but never less than 1. How do I know? Because it grates at me, every time. However, if you truly are creative and awesomely inventive and not lazy, you further reduce your chances of seeing another player with your name to 0 or, if not, below 1. My value is always 1 or greater. The only way to change my value is to change the system. Which, if you aren't lazy or unimaginative, should have no effect on you.

-Rachel-

Having no option to add to the vote makes things a lot easier. It's almost like voting for something on a REAL ballot, isn't it? Or are you someone who likes to write in "Mickey Mouse" on the ballot?

If 10% of the total population voted it would still be a greater number than those who had a voice at PAX and I would be satisfied. If 99% said No to the change, I'd be content in knowing that I got a vote. MY voice was heard.

And if 90% of the playerbase isn't happy of a change the had the option of stopping or pushing through if it fails, they've got the same right to complain that voters do when the President they don't like gets into office even though they didn't bother to vote for the one they DO like. Tough noogies, you had your chance and you didn't take it.

Ultimately, what I'm more concerned about, is getting the chance to have my voice heard. They asked at Pax and a small group of people got the chance to say yea or nay. I don't want their yea or nay, I want -MY- yea or nay. Hence the suggestion for the vote through electronic means. It gives EVERYONE the chance to vote, even if they don't take it.

What Pandora's box? The Devs actually polled players at a Convention about this. This is something that is, apparently, on their docket or on the table for discussion. It wasn't a question asked by a player, it was a question the Devs asked. They have chosen to invest a portion of the decision making process in the players. They don't ever have to do it, again.

Of course, if they did, they've got the ballot-tallying webpage created already!

Though this entire argument is moot since you're basing it off a logical fallacy (Slippery Slope)

You make everything sound so Argumentative and Complex. No player will ever be content!

-Rachel-

Eh, had a reply going but then got to this. Anything is just fallacy to you. Can't argue with that. You are not open to any objections and thought of everything. Can't wait for that email.

You want your voice heard - yet here are the forums. You can PM the devs. You can start threads. But a nice and simple vote is the way to go.