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Seeing as you keep coming back to this there are some big assumptions in here. I don't quite understand the breakdown per AT based on primary but I think it's 779/total primaries. If so I would argue that secondaries should also be included as a Willpower fire tank would more likely include choose a fire based name. Which would probably double the number already.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I actually once did the math on this... Let's see if it still holds up.
Let's assume that, in total, there are about 120,000 players on CoH. Let's split those up evenly among the various archetypes, and with a bit of rounding we get 8,571 players on each archetype at a given time. Let's also split that number by server, and we wind up with 779 players on Virtue (for example) playing one archetype. Now let's divide each archetype by the number of primary powersets and discard all the ones which don't have a "Fire" primary. Blasters: 78 Brutes: 70 Controllers: 97 Corruptors: 78 Dominators: 111 Scrappers: 78 Tankers: 111 So! That's 623 players using a Fire power for their primary. Out of 10,906 players on Virtue. Let's assume that fully 10% of players using a fire primary decide on the name "Blaze" with no other alterations or additions. That's 62 players with a fire character named Blaze. Let's divide it further! Those 62 players aren't all going to be in the same time zone, after all. So breaking it down by 24 hours (one per time zone) we wind up with almost 3 players using the name "Blaze" in a given time zone! So if you're online during a given one hour period you have a 3 in 455 chance of meeting a guy named Blaze (Once we divide that 10,906 by 24, of course) But wait! Further divide that total by 12. The number of character slots a person will have, automatically, on Virtue! That's .25 out of 455 or 1 in 1820 that you'll meet someone named "Blaze" on Virtue in a given hour! Of course, ALL of my numbers are off, since we know Virtue and Freedom are the two most populated servers. So you'd likely as not see a higher instance of "Blaze" characters running around. But you'd also see a higher number of people NOT named "Blaze" running around, as well. Since the total population would grow as well as the various "Blaze" characters... So yes. I am in favor of non-unique names. And to those who comment on the Champions method being ugly (Blaze@Winnebago34) please note that Champs has an option in the game menu to turn off globals over people's heads or in chat windows. So such a system is already in place to continue avoiding immersion breaking. While you might meet 12 "Rogue Angels of Satan" in Atlas Park during Peak Hours because someone thought it would be funny... do you ever take them seriously, anyway? -Rachel- |
Additionally you have divided by 24 for the time zones but it would be fair to assume the majority of the players are based in the US on the NA servers meaning that skews it more against too.
It's also not only about you seeing someone with the same name as you but other people seeing someone with the same name as you and thinking it's you and the % of that happening would be higher.
I'm playing a little bit of devils advocate here. As I said above I like the system as it is, but could get on and deal with it if they changed it unless they managed to screw it up badly somehow and I would probably take advantage of it by rolling identical characters (fire/fire blaster and fire/fire tank as different roles of the same character for example) which is probably worth adding to you Pro's list.
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Hypocritical patronizing much?|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
None of which impact the devs ability as a group to pull of a change to the naming system or not.
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I doubt you can even see it; you have obviously shown that you think you 'know better' than the Devs.
What MMO have you built?
To the specific point here, like for any business, it's all ROI. I have yet to see anyone come close to proving a positive ROI on allowing multiples of the same name on the same server. I have always wanted same names to not even be allowed on other servers, so obviously there are a number of points of view at work here.
Can it done? Certainly. Would it take a terribly large amount of coding? I doubt it. Would it be good for the revenue generated by the game? That's the real question now, isn't it?
Players need to be emotionally invested in their characters to remain loyal. While there are a number of factors to the emotional investment, name and look are two of the most compelling. Trivializing the name component (obviously someone can already copy your look) would, IMO, lower the emotional investment many players have. That points directly to continued subscriptions and thus revenue.
I see nothing but negative ROI. If the Devs see positive ROI, then I am sure they will make the change.
If we get cross server teaming, then obviously some change will have to be made. I have seen server merges in other games us the ideas posted here; simply use the 'of ServerName' moniker. While I don't personally even like that, at least you are the 'real' thing from your 'alternate universe'.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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It's not when people's emotions are involved like in names, costumes, or other concepts (powersets like vehicles). |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Here on the forums my voice is heard, that's true! But so many other's voices aren't heard. I'd want the same courtesy given to those at PAX given to me, and to all others. A Vote which isn't offered to all isn't democratic. At best it's Republic and at worst it's an Oligarchy.
As for the "Slippery Slope" fallacy. A leads to B leads to C. Is correct. A Must Lead to C. Is incorrect. By declaring that putting this vote into effect will "Open a Pandora's Box" of other votes -having- to be put through you skip over the part where the Devs initiated the process. They have the decision over whether something is voted on. Not everything is a fallacy. But the ones that are clearly defined fallacies definitely are... -Rachel- *Edit* Heck! Change three words in your sentence. Pandora's box to Slippery Slope and opening to On. Or are you leaning more towards the "Can of Worms"? In which case it's still a logical fallacy, since opening up the vote on a Dev-initiated topic does not create serious problems in large quantities. |
But you rather lecture and know it all. Apparently I don't understand "slippery slope" and need it explain in details since I am sooooo uneducated. ("But I never said that" or "You are putting words in my mouth" - you are in your little passive aggressiveness there, but will deny it nonetheless.)
Anyhow, what you call fallacies, I call thinking ahead. You seem to just go on and do what ever without asking the "what if's". Of course we can not prove if A will lead to C, but is there any chance of A leading to C or D or E? If so, what are the consequences - better or worse? What I do and work, we have to think of things because if we don't, there could be real life consequences (jobs, money to the company, etc.). I would love to say to my teams, "Don't worry, we can't show that A must or ever will lead to C so we can just ignore it. All will be fine and dandy." So, apart from your infallible math on how often will see another player with the same (until they type /search), I see this vote as something that could be used as a precedent for other things that I may or may not support.
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I would add promotes a wider variety of names to the Unique Pros list.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Pros of Unique Name
Characters are more concretely "Owned" by the person who has their name. Immersion Saved for those who concretely "Own" a name. No system changes required to maintain this status. Impossible to "Grief" using someone else's name (though costume, bio, and near-name is fine) Cons for Unique names Players are forced to change from the name they had in mind. Immersion breaking "Hacked" or l33tsp33k names. Is another hurdle to jump when a server merge occurs (either forced or in a paradigm shift) Some players give up on character concepts because they can't get a name they enjoy. Cross-server teaming is impossible without changes to the system. Pros of Non-Unique Names Freedom to name your character as you see fit. Sharp decline in "Hacked" or l33tsp33k names, leading to less immersion breaking Less player frustration at the naming screen Players can still be creative to get a name noone (or nearly noone) has. More time spent playing the game than sitting at the name screen typing synonyms (total, not individual) Less player-drop of concept characters due to names being available. One less step to make when a "Serverless" environment or single-server environment becomes the norm. Helps cross-server teaming attempts by making names no longer a hurdle. Cons of Non-unique Naming Requires a coding change Immersion breaking at the rare times when two people with the same name meet (if they even care) Removes the concrete feeling that one "Owns" a name. Without monitoring or global-ties, could lead to griefing under false-identities. |
As I said above I would add allows players to create different versions of the same character to the Non-Unique list.
I'm not sure it's fair having the serverless or cross server teaming items on there as there has been no concrete information on those and it's all been player supposition. But in saying that if they do implement either system something will have to be done about names and we are likely to see something like this in place.
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Okay... So let's Double the number of "Blaze" characters in relation to the population of the server. Still 10% of a subset, but a -wider- subset. your chances, based on my calculations, just increased from 1 in 72,800 to 1 in 36,400! |
Originally Posted by Diggis
Seeing as you keep coming back to this there are some big assumptions in here. I don't quite understand the breakdown per AT based on primary but I think it's 779/total primaries. If so I would argue that secondaries should also be included as a Willpower fire tank would more likely include choose a fire based name. Which would probably double the number already.
Additionally you have divided by 24 for the time zones but it would be fair to assume the majority of the players are based in the US on the NA servers meaning that skews it more against too. It's also not only about you seeing someone with the same name as you but other people seeing someone with the same name as you and thinking it's you and the % of that happening would be higher. I'm playing a little bit of devils advocate here. As I said above I like the system as it is, but could get on and deal with it if they changed it unless they managed to screw it up badly somehow and I would probably take advantage of it by rolling identical characters (fire/fire blaster and fire/fire tank as different roles of the same character for example) which is probably worth adding to you Pro's list. |
And yes, there is a higher propensity of players in the American time-zones. but that doesn't change the -base- numbers, 10% of a subset of players. Whether there's 100,000 or 10,000 on at the same time, your chances are still around 36,400.
Of course, if you want to get TECHNICAL there's also subdivisions of zones to take into account, neighborhoods, streets, etc, which lowers your chance of seeing another individual. And players often have more than 12 character slots to play with... So that would further lower your chances, likely as not to far -below- 1 in 78,200. But I don't have all the data required to go into all the calculations, so I made approximations based on known variables and quantities. If you really wanted to get specific you'd have to get into speed calculations, travel times, and things of that nature which even further reduce your chances of ever meeting anyone who has your exact name.
-Rachel-
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More numbers that dont' prove anything. What about globals or SGs? People may stick to those for teaming and may see those all the time. You haven't shown this will happen and are just guessing like the weather.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Okay... So let's Double the number of "Blaze" characters in relation to the population of the server. Still 10% of a subset, but a -wider- subset. your chances, based on my calculations, just increased from 1 in 72,800 to 1 in 36,400!
And yes, there is a higher propensity of players in the American time-zones. but that doesn't change the -base- numbers, 10% of a subset of players. Whether there's 100,000 or 10,000 on at the same time, your chances are still around 36,400. Of course, if you want to get TECHNICAL there's also subdivisions of zones to take into account, neighborhoods, streets, etc, which lowers your chance of seeing another individual. And players often have more than 12 character slots to play with... So that would further lower your chances, likely as not to far -below- 1 in 78,200. But I don't have all the data required to go into all the calculations, so I made approximations based on known variables and quantities. If you really wanted to get specific you'd have to get into speed calculations, travel times, and things of that nature which even further reduce your chances of ever meeting anyone who has your exact name. -Rachel- |
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If people on your global friends list roll a character which has your name that's between you and them. Same for your SG. If you want your SG to have a naming policy, that's fine! DON'T invite people who share a name. Big deal. |
Originally Posted by PennyPA
More numbers that dont' prove anything. What about globals or SGs? People may stick to those for teaming and may see those all the time. You haven't shown this will happen and are just guessing like the weather.
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You have control over those variables. Control them. Don't act like it's beyond you and invalidates solid number crunching.
-Rachel-
Steampunkette, the calculations are really not helpful nor accurate.
I probably shouldn't bother chiming in on this, because this discussion has passed the point of interest to me, and I probably won't spend the time needed to express things well enough, but besides the fact that there are so many variables that would move those numbers around in all directions... Statsistics in such a topic as this do nothing.
It's not just randomly bumping into people online. There are friends of friends, Super Groups, coalitions, global channels, forums, communities...
Yes, the Virtue community is quite fractured and I could imagine 100 Batmans could all be on that server and never once know that any other than themselves existed.
I am not so sure all (Or even most) servers are as fractured to that degree. That point is not really to serve either side of this debate, however.
Also, from what I am reading... did you only include one AT of fire primaries? Or all fire primaries of the different ATs? There's more... but, back to my initial points, I don't think it matters one bit.
I will agree that the chances of never running into a same-named character can be pretty damn tremendous.
Of course, if I were the type of player to name my character Dark Lord, I may not be so lucky, but whatever.
More importantly (for me), statistics don't mean **** in a case such as this.
Also, that list of pros and cons has many duplicates within the pros of non-unique names. I suppose I should back that up by pointing them out, one by one. I'll try and make that time, shortly.
I think this might be the last thing I say about the subject of unique names vs non-unique names, and I hope it is not taken as offense to anyone.
I just see it as this:
It makes all the sense in the world to me that once a name is chosen on a server, it is removed from availability.
Has it ever stopped me from getting a name? YEP!
It's just the way it is and should be, in my opinion. There are other servers and other names. The idea that more than one character can share the exact same name makes no sense to me.
No game I have ever played before worked any differently.
Some might claim I am living in the past or clinging to old ways that no longer need to be...
because some other games have managed to pull it off.
I don't see it as needed, I don't see it as an improvement and I don't see it as a good thing.
I'm not terribly against it, so long as it is hidden and all that. Although, I don't know how I send a tell purely from typing the command to one of several Batmans. /tell Batman... I guess I would need their global or whatever else it is tied to. Add that to a Con for non-uniques, if you really want to bother.
As for an email/vote/whatever... Whether or not I'd want to see one or whatever, if they made it a clean check off one of two options - unique names or non-unique names (With much greater descriptions, of course) then that eliminates some of the problems raised about such a thing.
However, any such decision should come from the developers, as far as I am concerned.
They have created a game world where they desired unique names. If they change their tune, they can come out and explain it and we can see what happens.
Of course, I don't think that's happening (Nor do I fear it, even if it were).
All due respect,
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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given that the game contains a multitude of natural watering holes where players tend to congregate I'm skeptical.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Yes, the Virtue community is quite fractured and I could imagine 100 Batmans could all be on that server and never once know that any other than themselves existed.
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Even a busy server is like a small town where everyone regardless of status or station goes to a lot of the same places- post office, grocery store, bakery.
Unique names work great, there's no need to mess with them.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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Nethergoat and Electric-Knight are explaining it better. You are ASSUMING. You have NO solid number crunching. Stop acting like your math are facts.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Don't act like it's beyond you and invalidates solid number crunching.
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EDIT - You are not taking into any account the "coolness" factor. I may see a toon 1 time (in my entire life) that has a name, and I can say "Wow! I want that name too." Then make one with the name, and go showing it off to other friends, who make think similarly (friends are like that you know) and take the name, thus spreading it more and picked up by other players. Now players are creating toons in roughly the same period, thus roughly the same level and actually may end up teaming toghether because they are running the same content. Probably another "fallacy" since you like that word so much.
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Math is facts. Though yeah, Nethergoat is right that there are certain watering holes people tend to congregate at.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
Nethergoat and Electric-Knight are explaining it better. You are ASSUMING. You have NO solid number crunching. Stop acting like your math are facts.
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though even then the number of watering holes is large enough and the time it takes to drink short enough to avoid too much issue.
If you constantly hang out in the D, sure you've got a higher chance to meet someone with your name. But if he's referring to level trainers, markets, bank vaults, black markets, universities, and other locations, he's just adding more variables to the equation to make it more and more rare that you'll meet someone with your name AT one of those locations.
Ultimately, Unique naming doesn't work. If it did work there wouldn't have been hundreds of variants of this thread floating around the forums. This wouldn't be a constantly debated topic. And the Devs -wouldn't- have asked at PAX if it should change.
Yes. My numbers are based on variable starting points which can be altered with real data. However I'm confident that, with the actual data, they'd still show how rare the random event of running into another individual with your name is. Ask people who play that other MMO how often they run into people with their same name, and then realize they're in a single-server environment with about 5 different zones.
-Rachel-
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No... No... That's just stupidity. |
Originally Posted by PennyPA
You are not taking into any account the "coolness" factor. I may see a toon 1 time (in my entire life) that has a name, and I can say "Wow! I want that name too." Then make one with the name, and go showing it off to other friends, who make think similarly (friends are like that you know) and take the name, thus spreading it more and picked up by other players. Now players are creating toons in roughly the same period, thus roughly the same level and actually may end up teaming toghether because they are running the same content. Probably another "fallacy" since you like that word so much.
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Though... Actually... Yes. It -is- a logical fallacy. Several, in fact... That's both a Strawman fallacy AND a Slippery Slope fallacy combined with a Fallacy of Sweeping Generalization or perhaps a Fallacy of Hasty Generalization (kind of hazy in this instance)
Slippery Slope is "Event A MIGHT cause Event B. Event B MIGHT cause Event C. Therefore Event A WILL Cause Event C" Just because people can share names doesn't mean people will steal them.
The "People are like that" clause is where the stupidity lies, but also the Fallacy of Sweeping Generalizations. "If I do it so do other people because they are like me" in this case.
Though it could ALSO be a Fallacy of Hasty Generalization "The people I know do This so all people must do this, too"
As for the Straw Man, you're not responding to my argument, but setting up a slightly different but similar situation and then attacking it. Your group of people actively copying someone, as opposed to my random chance meeting. Then you're attacking the situation you set up, rather than my position.
So yes. Logical Fallacies. And it is kind of fun to say!
-Rachel-
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Of course math is facts - based on solid, observable data. However, you only have asssumptions and claiming it be math, therefore facts.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Math is facts. Though yeah, Nethergoat is right that there are certain watering holes people tend to congregate at.
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though even then the number of watering holes is large enough and the time it takes to drink short enough to avoid too much issue. If you constantly hang out in the D, sure you've got a higher chance to meet someone with your name. But if he's referring to level trainers, markets, bank vaults, black markets, universities, and other locations, he's just adding more variables to the equation to make it more and more rare that you'll meet someone with your name AT one of those locations. |
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| Ultimately, Unique naming doesn't work. If it did work there wouldn't have been hundreds of variants of this thread floating around the forums. This wouldn't be a constantly debated topic. And the Devs -wouldn't- have asked at PAX if it should change. |
And now you know the intentions of the devs and their questioning? Incredible. Anything else you should let us players know?
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Yes. My numbers are based on variable starting points which can be altered with real data. However I'm confident that, with the actual data, they'd still show how rare the random event of running into another individual with your name is. Ask people who play that other MMO how often they run into people with their same name, and then realize they're in a single-server environment with about 5 different zones. -Rachel- |
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So now stupidity and fallacy. People copy all the time. You should see the the Lady Gagas at our school song-a-thon - oh wait, you weren't there so I am making up stuff like your math. Fallacy, fallacy, fallacy is all you have with your assumptions and so called facts.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
No... No... That's just stupidity.
Though... Actually... Yes. It -is- a logical fallacy. Several, in fact... That's both a Strawman fallacy AND a Slippery Slope fallacy combined with a Fallacy of Sweeping Generalization or perhaps a Fallacy of Hasty Generalization (kind of hazy in this instance) Slippery Slope is "Event A MIGHT cause Event B. Event B MIGHT cause Event C. Therefore Event A WILL Cause Event C" Just because people can share names doesn't mean people will steal them. The "People are like that" clause is where the stupidity lies, but also the Fallacy of Sweeping Generalizations. "If I do it so do other people because they are like me" in this case. Though it could ALSO be a Fallacy of Hasty Generalization "The people I know do This so all people must do this, too" As for the Straw Man, you're not responding to my argument, but setting up a slightly different but similar situation and then attacking it. Your group of people actively copying someone, as opposed to my random chance meeting. Then you're attacking the situation you set up, rather than my position. So yes. Logical Fallacies. And it is kind of fun to say! -Rachel- |
Hrm, Steampunkette, that last reply to PennyPA seems way out of line to me.
It's certainly not stupidity... and I think it is a fair point.
It happens with costumes all the time (Not saying that in a hurt way, hehe. It's cool. We all inspire each other. Some copy, some take things into their own, etc.).
Anyway, those particular maths are not fact of any kind.
Define the powersets of Dark Lord, Omega Man and/or Super Tom.
(And hey, is Super Dave a restricted name?)
Forget all of that and explain to us how individuals and exceptions defy cold statistics (Not that those particular statistics are accurate, as they are).
If two or more people have the same play times, share the same desire to stick to one character, are both big community members... explain how your statistics truly matter when they both have the same name on the same server.
I suppose statistics will show that their subscription life will only be about 3 months, so no worries.
Lastly... Do you honestly believe that there would be no posts about a Unique Name System if this game had a Non-Unique Name System?
I guess that would prove to you that Non-Unique Name Systems don't work?
Which, would prove what was already said before... There is no right and people aren't likely going to convince each other to change their personal preference to another's.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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I'm sorry you feel that way. However I did point out the various problems in his argument, then defined them for him, since he doesn't seem to understan them enough to avoid reusing them.|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Hrm, Steampunkette, that last reply to PennyPA seems way out of line to me.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
It's certainly not stupidity... and I think it is a fair point.
It happens with costumes all the time (Not saying that in a hurt way, hehe. It's cool. We all inspire each other. Some copy, some take things into their own, etc.). |
It could happen. I won't say it won't or couldn't. But it certainly would be a rare and strange event.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Anyway, those particular maths are not fact of any kind.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Define the powersets of Dark Lord, Omega Man and/or Super Tom.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
(And hey, is Super Dave a restricted name?)
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Forget all of that and explain to us how individuals and exceptions defy cold statistics (Not that those particular statistics are accurate, as they are).
If two or more people have the same play times, share the same desire to stick to one character, are both big community members... explain how your statistics truly matter when they both have the same name on the same server. |
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
I suppose statistics will show that their subscription life will only be about 3 months, so no worries.
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Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Lastly... Do you honestly believe that there would be no posts about a Unique Name System if this game had a Non-Unique Name System?
I guess that would prove to you that Non-Unique Name Systems don't work? Which, would prove what was already said before... There is no right and people aren't likely going to convince each other to change their personal preference to another's. |
And that all discussion on it ended just about a year ago...
-Rachel-
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it's actually a psychological reality.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
No... No... That's just stupidity.
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especially in a game with a good number of younger players.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
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You have pointed nothing out or defined them. I know exactly what they are and treating someone else like they are clueless. More assumptions by you. |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I'm sorry you feel that way. However I did point out the various problems in his argument, then defined them for him, since he doesn't seem to understan them enough to avoid reusing them.
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You live in a simple world where everything works out. I don't. I spend mine in dealing with all the possibilities and preparing plans around them. You call them fallacy since you are very limited in the ability to see consequences of actions.
You are also dismissive when this is brought up and presumptious as in "But it certainly would be a rare and strange event." Oh, you know that how?
So no math, no anything really. Just calling out fallacy and stupidity and therefore you are right.
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Penny. Stop while you're behind.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
You have pointed nothing out or defined them. I know exactly what they are and treating someone else like they are clueless. More assumptions by you.
You live in a simple world where everything works out. I don't. I spend mine in dealing with all the possibilities and preparing plans around them. You call them fallacy since you are very limited in the ability to see consequences of actions. You are also dismissive when this is brought up and presumptious as in "But it certainly would be a rare and strange event." Oh, you know that how? So no math, no anything really. Just calling out fallacy and stupidity and therefore you are right. |
You have repeatedly used the Slippery Slope logical fallacy. That's not my fault. I just pointed it out, then showed you how your statement was a "Slippery Slope".
I live in the same world you do. Don't make presumptions and ad-hominem attacks just because your argument doesn't function. The only presumption I made about you was based on your repeated use of the same broken and flawed logic twice. That shows me you don't understand -why- it's flawed, so I explained it.
I do see the consequences of actions. And your presumption that i don't is quite insulting. But you seem to assume that ALL potential negative consequences that could possibly ever happen -will- happen, and do so in a way that is visible to each and every single individual. Which, honestly, seems ridiculous.
Yes. There can be the rare circumstance where someone sees the name "Blaze" and says "Wow what a great character!" and makes another character named "Blaze". Does that mean that the change should not be put through?
Go back to the Pros and Cons list I made and Add to it. The Pros of changing the system, as it stands in that list, outweigh the Pros of keeping it.
I have conceded, already, that the math (while sound) has variables. that's -all- you're going to get me to concede on that point. Change the numbers up in any way you like, the totals will still result in it being incredibly rare to run into someone with the same name.
-Rachel-
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You have shown nothing including your math. It is horrible, why do you pretent it is? |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Penny. Stop while you're behind.
You have repeatedly used the Slippery Slope logical fallacy. That's not my fault. I just pointed it out, then showed you how your statement was a "Slippery Slope". I live in the same world you do. Don't make presumptions and ad-hominem attacks just because your argument doesn't function. The only presumption I made about you was based on your repeated use of the same broken and flawed logic twice. That shows me you don't understand -why- it's flawed, so I explained it. I do see the consequences of actions. And your presumption that i don't is quite insulting. But you seem to assume that ALL potential negative consequences that could possibly ever happen -will- happen, and do so in a way that is visible to each and every single individual. Which, honestly, seems ridiculous. Yes. There can be the rare circumstance where someone sees the name "Blaze" and says "Wow what a great character!" and makes another character named "Blaze". Does that mean that the change should not be put through? Go back to the Pros and Cons list I made and Add to it. The Pros of changing the system, as it stands in that list, outweigh the Pros of keeping it. I have conceded, already, that the math (while sound) has variables. that's -all- you're going to get me to concede on that point. Change the numbers up in any way you like, the totals will still result in it being incredibly rare to run into someone with the same name. -Rachel- |
Adding yet even more insults and assumptions (like I am behind). Now making up stuff like I said things will happen? I said possibilities that MAY happen. You, in your assuming ways, changed that to definitely happen. Would help if you read and weren't so condenscending and dismissive.
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Being "Behind" is generally a way of telling someone they're losing the race. In this particular case it was me letting you know what you were losing the race with my patience. You wore it out faster than I could give you more by being being insulting.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
You have shown nothing including your math. It is horrible, why do you pretent it is?
Adding yet even more insults and assumptions (like I am behind). Now making up stuff like I said things will happen? I said possibilities that MAY happen. You, in your assuming ways, changed that to definitely happen. Would help if you read and weren't so condenscending and dismissive. |
I'm open to discussion, to debate, to arguments. I'm not open to flawed arguments because they are flawed. That is what a Logical Fallacy is. A flawed argument.
The Math is accurate as presented. Give me new variables and I'll give you a new equation with more accurate results. However you'll just wind up with an even larger end ratio, not a smaller one. Unless, of course, you start offering wild numbers (like 10% of the total playerbase sharing the same name on one character or another)
I'm going to ask you a serious question, however, and I don't want you to take it as an insult, because it isn't intended as one. Is English a second language for you? It might be part of the problem we're having. A failure to communicate.
-Rachel-
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Rare?|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Yes. There can be the rare circumstance where someone sees the name "Blaze" and says "Wow what a great character!" and makes another character named "Blaze".
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LOL.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
I find the comment highlighted to be the biggest hole in your math...
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With the introduction of Power Customization, just about every powerset would allow it's creator to use the word "Blaze" in the name. I'd be hard pressed to justify Assault Riffle and likely Archery, but I'm sure someone can and likely has created an AR or Arch character with "Blaze" in the name.
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Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I actually once did the math on this... Let's see if it still holds up.
Let's assume that, in total, there are about 120,000 players on CoH. Let's split those up evenly among the various archetypes, and with a bit of rounding we get 8,571 players on each archetype at a given time. Let's also split that number by server, and we wind up with 779 players on Virtue (for example) playing one archetype. Now let's divide each archetype by the number of primary powersets and discard all the ones which don't have a "Fire" primary. <redacted> -Rachel- |
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First, you are the insulting one but apparently blind to it and get defensive when responded too. You didn't need to define all that stuff and treat some one like an inferior mentally - but that may be normal behavior for you. |
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Being "Behind" is generally a way of telling someone they're losing the race. In this particular case it was me letting you know what you were losing the race with my patience. You wore it out faster than I could give you more by being being insulting.
I'm open to discussion, to debate, to arguments. I'm not open to flawed arguments because they are flawed. That is what a Logical Fallacy is. A flawed argument. The Math is accurate as presented. Give me new variables and I'll give you a new equation with more accurate results. However you'll just wind up with an even larger end ratio, not a smaller one. Unless, of course, you start offering wild numbers (like 10% of the total playerbase sharing the same name on one character or another) I'm going to ask you a serious question, however, and I don't want you to take it as an insult, because it isn't intended as one. Is English a second language for you? It might be part of the problem we're having. A failure to communicate. -Rachel- |
And you still cling to this flaw/fallacy stuff. These are possibilities that MAY (the point you are missing) happen be it 1% or 99% chance happening. You admit that here:
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| It could happen. I won't say it won't or couldn't. |
You can say anything you want with the numbers are assuming. You can not predict in any sense of accuracy since emotional elements are involved (character concept in particular). You have no solid math. Period. It does not matter what I say because they are ASSUMPTIONS not based on real data that could include emotional elements. People do crazy things when emotions are involved. GDN or ED? Remember those? The math behind them make perfect sense, but you wouldn't have guessed that reading these forums.
You also take a very simplistic view to solving problems. Just toss an email out. I brought isssues up on that, that you just dismissed. Data? Look at the Informal Art Poll thread and how complex that got. It was easy - Option 1 or Option 2. Look at the dev's replies. It isn't simple. You want people to have a voice - they have one. All players have access to the forums if they are active/good standing. How many though come to the forums? Look at this thread for replies. Actually read them. This is not a clean cut issue, especially after 6 years. You call another fallacy about players wanting votes for AT/powerset respecs or opening up costumes. I have zero doubt it will happen because it deals with the touchy subject of concept. Some one will eventually hear that multiple names came from concept arguments and they will have a precedent to work on. I read these threads all the time in the Suggestions forums (Hi, I have some concept but I can't get such and such or a new powerset came out that actually fits my concept...).
This subject is too hot that can be casually solve by your inaccurate math and throw an email out solution.
And now you think I don't speak English as a first language? Wow, you know no limits.
You want your voice heard - yet here are the forums. You can PM the devs. You can start threads. But a nice and simple vote is the way to go.
As for the "Slippery Slope" fallacy.
A leads to B leads to C. Is correct.
A Must Lead to C. Is incorrect.
By declaring that putting this vote into effect will "Open a Pandora's Box" of other votes -having- to be put through you skip over the part where the Devs initiated the process. They have the decision over whether something is voted on.
Not everything is a fallacy. But the ones that are clearly defined fallacies definitely are...
-Rachel-
*Edit* Heck! Change three words in your sentence. Pandora's box to Slippery Slope and opening to On. Or are you leaning more towards the "Can of Worms"? In which case it's still a logical fallacy, since opening up the vote on a Dev-initiated topic does not create serious problems in large quantities.