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I agree with your first paragraph, thankfully however, the patches have been fixing the ambush problems. Seer 0001 is much easier now (you no longer need a Depends to deal with the ambushes); the ghoul ambushes in the "Meet with Maxine" mission are more spaced out, so you can actually deal with them. Those are 2 examples off the top of my head of some of the ambush fixes we're seeing.|
Originally Posted by Minotaur
The difficulty is not so much that the individual mobs are harder, the scenarios in Praetoria simply mean you're fighting more than 3 at a time more often solo (and correspondingly more on teams) due to the ambush structure.
Some of the badguys also seem to have enhanced perception, meaning unless you're very careful you'll fight 2 groups at once a lot. |
As to your second point I haven't noticed any increase in agro range myself.
*shrugs*
"I used to make diddly squat, but I've been with the company for 16 years and have had plenty of great raises. Now I just make squat" -- Me
Pediatric brain tumors are the #1 cause of cancer related deaths in children.
While I will agree that the mobs in Praetoria are a BIT tougher in general than the original mobs in Paragon, I can't agree that things are that much tougher in general.
I've taken a brute, a mastermind, a controller, a defender, and (in-progress) a scrapper through Praetoria so far, both teamed and solo, and it's not that much rougher than the 1-20 run in Paragon has always been.
In fact, if I had to point to a single example of the "things are just too tough" argument, the only thing I could really come up with is that there are a lot more instances of Elite Boss encounters at the end of the various arcs in Praetoria (as opposed to ?what? just FrostFire and Dr. Vhaz in Paragon 1-20 arcs).
The higher instances of EBs is a bit rougher on the squishy ATs, but that's really the only big difficulty increase in general.
6000+ levels gained and 8 level 50's
Hello, my name is Soulwind and I have Alt-Itis.
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More than Paragon, but fewer or the same as in the Rogue Isles. In the Isles you get level 4 Elite Bosses in Port Oaks. One story arc has two in it.|
Originally Posted by Soulwind
In fact, if I had to point to a single example of the "things are just too tough" argument, the only thing I could really come up with is that there are a lot more instances of Elite Boss encounters at the end of the various arcs in Praetoria (as opposed to ?what? just FrostFire and Dr. Vhaz in Paragon 1-20 arcs).
The higher instances of EBs is a bit rougher on the squishy ATs, but that's really the only big difficulty increase in general. |
For the record, I don't find the Praetorian missions to be any harder than equivalent missions in CoV, but that is a tad harder than CoH.
Now if you compare the story arcs to cherry picking your newspaper/radio missions? No comparison, the stories are vastly harder. But that is just as true anywhere.
In general, in CoH content, it seems that people do a sewer run to level 6-7, three paper missions, Atlas bank for the jet pack, few more paper missions, kings row bank, then maybe hit the hollows or steel and find more paper mission pugs.
Story mission teams in Kings Row, Skyway and Steel are very rare. And the stories are far harder content-wise than paper missions. Try the Igneus arc in the hollows compared to even Circle of thorns paper missions. No contest the minions of igneus are rougher. They're like baby warwolves =). Or that Vahzilok arc where you get a wasting disease for multiple missions.
I'm with Forbin, I think that people have skipped the real content so often they don't know how to play low level and they don't remember what it is like. I solo through the low levels in both hero and villain, and praetoria is only a very small bit harder. Mostly because the enemies have very cool new powers. Stealth, AoE heals, aggro auras, etc.
Very cool stuff.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
I think this may be the root cause of the issue. Most Zones blueside or redside have enough options that you can avoid foes that exploit your vulnerabilities. You can street sweep, run paper missions, and you usually have at least three Arcs from Contact missions to choose from. If any one path becomes a dead end, you have others available. |
Originally Posted by Zamuel
There's some potentially nasty stuff at low levels [in Paragon City] like Minion of Igneous bosses with holds, high damage, and status protection but they are easy to avoid.
|
In Praetoria, though, while there ARE other choices, they usually revolve around changing your alignment or sense of character. If you choose to do only the Warden missions because you want your character to be a Hero, you are stuck with one path through the Arc.
And I'm pretty sure you must also finish the previous level band to move on to the next, you can't leave a Warden Arc half finished at 10-20 and move on to the Warden Arcs at 20-30, like you can with the Contact Arcs in Paragon City or the Rogue Isles.
Personally, having confronted Silver Mantis or Callistyx the Shaper so many times on Villains that simply weren't cut out to face them, I'm not sure that CoV wasn't already a "raising of the bar". But I can avoid those EBs if I choose to.
[edit] Also, let's not forget that every time a new issue comes out, there is always a complaint about "The devs nerfed accuracy!"
Well, not so much since they came up with the boost to accuracy for the lowbies, but it can still be frustrating when you are used to having a 95% chance to hit against foes +5 to you, even when they're debuffing your ToHit.
Yes, the difficulty has changed, but it's not so hard that it makes IOs and sets mandatory.
I still use SOs (Heck, I use level 25 IOs that are what? 6% less effective than SOs?) and do just fine on any of my characters. Yes, praetoria is hard on new characters, but thats because you aren't fighting enemies that only have a single attack on a 5 second cooldown anymore. Once you figure that out and start trying to kill/weaken enemies at range before they get to melee, it gets easier.
As for the super stunners...I like them mainly because before the Freakshow were a complete joke. Now they can actually put up a fight.
Characters!:
Pinny - Scrapper
Shadewing - Defender
@Pinny
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Agreed. I think that for the high-level content, the devs didn't so much make the game "more difficult" as they did "less easy".|
Originally Posted by Pinny
Yes, the difficulty has changed, but it's not so hard that it makes IOs and sets mandatory.
|
For example, I used to grab the first mission of the "Television Invasion" arc through Ouroboros on my Brute just for chuckles. Freakshow and DE? Bwahahahahahaha! Set it to +whatever/x8 and plow through them.
Now? It's not the Super Stunners that bother me. Solo, they self-rez with so few HP that I laugh and throw one knockout blow to get full rewards for them again.
It's the freaking Quartz that get dropped by the newly-expanded level 50 DE lineup that are killers, though. Prior to I18, level 50 DE were Boulders, Granite, and Greater Devoured. The enemy group roster is now more consistent with what they are like at 40 or 45, with as many as 3 different DE "pets" per spawn, one of which provides a massive to-hit buff that completely negates multiple melee mitigation sets.
Is it "more difficult"? Not really. It's less easy, though, and perhaps more tedious. That's certainly not a mission I'd grab for fun any more, at least not with a defense-based brute (I don't think my dominator would notice, or care...). It's not something that suddenly requires IOs to be able to manage, since I've got those in spades and still made 2-3 trips to the hospital after I couldn't deal with a Quartz fast enough/caught a group with 2 Guardians in it and chose the wrong one to attack first/whatever. It's just a rebalancing of the enemy groups so that we can't quite trivialize the difficulty of the content in the way some of us had.
My postings to this forum are not to be used as data in any research study without my express written consent.
Quote:
Frankenslotting is a technique where you slot partial sets (ie. select IO's |
Originally Posted by roodawg
How do you Frankenslot an IO ?
 |
from a set rather than the entire set) to maximize the key attributes of
the power you're slotting rather than focus on set bonuses.
There are many benefits to that approach. There are also some very good
guides on it in the Guides section if you want to learn more about it.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Quote:
|
First off, it wasn't a complaint, it was a question, soliciting opinion and
discussion. You can tell by the "?" syntax, and the fact that I said "it
begs the question"...
I played Khelds in I-3 with the -30% gimp, when bosses were still in solo
missions, vet powers didn't exist, and Quantums and Voids were actually
dangerous. My lone Praetorian isn't having any troubles whatsoever with
the riff-raff in Nova Praetoria or Imperial City...
However, if you'd like to "give credence" to the flip side, by all means, I'll
toss out this variant just for you:
"Some folks are reporting that Praetoria (and the rest of the game) is too
easy - it begs the question "Should we just ignore Sets and IO's
completely, and use DO's and SO's since IO's dilute game "challenge"?
Now for the folks who are actually discussing the original question rather
than simply trolling, I'll say thanks for the responses - there are some very
interesting points here (imho).
A few noteworthy ones that caught my eye (paraphrased):
Several: Praetoria mobs are tougher than Hellions or Skulls, but no worse
really than Vahz, LongBow, Spectral CoT Demons etc.
Good Point, I agree.
Forbin: A lot of players have skipped low level content to get to 50 quickly
and now have trouble relating back to low level characters.
I think that is significant - the one death my Praetorian did have (@L5)
was entirely due to that (coupled with a little bit of bad ambush timing).
I didn't skip stuff per se, but my current crop of actives are all above L35,
and I had to recall how to play a lowbie again.
I see this frequently in PvP between Bloody Bay vs RV, and even SC as
well, where zone level limits can make it more difficult to play optimally.
Pinny: Difficulty has changed, but not to the point where IO's are required.
A lot of folks have said things along that line of: things are a bit more
difficult, but not to the point that game balance itself has changed
To me, that is the interesting part, and I fully agree with it, but that's
also what makes me wonder if we're at the start of a "trend" towards
more difficulty / need IOs, which, I find intriguing rather than problematic.
Once again, thanks for your replies and opinions - I think it's been a very
interesting discussion so far.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Dear OP:
1) You can't IO out and get much benefit under level 20. They're not balancing for IO's, they're balancing for "have to be awake."
2) The "joke" enemies usually get buffed. CoT got a couple slight buffs (Nerva Daemons?) a few years back, for instance. Freakshow have been a joke in the high levels since issue 1 [although I might have erred on the side of caution and introduced Super Stunners for level 35+]. And Devoured were the only group that got EASIER in the 40+ game; that seems like they were fixing an oversight to me.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
1> Except with Purples and PvPIOs |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Dear OP:
1) You can't IO out and get much benefit under level 20. They're not balancing for IO's, they're balancing for "have to be awake." 2) The "joke" enemies usually get buffed. CoT got a couple slight buffs (Nerva Daemons?) a few years back, for instance. Freakshow have been a joke in the high levels since issue 1 [although I might have erred on the side of caution and introduced Super Stunners for level 35+]. And Devoured were the only group that got EASIER in the 40+ game; that seems like they were fixing an oversight to me. |
2> True - but it might also be arguable that part of what makes them "joke"
mobs is IOs & Sets along with buffs that made heroes more soloable a few
issues back (Villains were designed that way from the get-go, and it may
also be arguable that CoV mobs are generally tougher than CoH mobs for
that very reason).
Fixing an oversight? Maybe.
I guess that will become apparent with future content additions. After all,
an isolated event isn't much of a "trend", but every trend starts with a
seemingly isolated event at the beginning.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
1) Purples in Praetoria?!? HAXXX!
2) Freaks were jokes for most level 30+ characters in I4-I8 as well.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
All things i tend to look for in the early levels anyway. Well, except for Vahz, they don't carry much that i want in their pockets. Oh and Arachnos are good too.|
Originally Posted by Silverado
Difficulty hasn't been raised.
Enemies in Praetoria may be harder than Hellions and Skulls, but they pale in comparisson to end-draining Clockwork in the pre-stamina levels, rech-flooring Vahzilok with toxic damage, chain-mezzing CoT mages before anyone has mez protection, tohit-debuffing Spectral Daemon Lords pre-SO's, and other hazardous mobs already present in Paragon City |
My only complaints about recent greater difficulty is with regards to (hopefully not WAI) buggy ambush mechanics.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
Actually, begging the question is a type of logical fallacy. <.< i suspect you meant that it raises a question. |
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
First off, it wasn't a complaint, it was a question, soliciting opinion and
discussion. You can tell by the "?" syntax, and the fact that I said "it begs the question"... |
The ambushes, whether by grammar fascists or not, are the only difficulty increase of any significance that i've noticed. Praetorian enemies are more difficult than average to lower difficulty factions, but not more difficult than all other groups in the same level ranges.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Quote:
Yeah, I only ever found Freaks annoying in the 20-30 range... tanks are annoying then; not enough DPS, mitigation, or tricks to efficiently deal with them. After 30? Free chance of double XP on Lts or higher.
|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
2) Freaks were jokes for most level 30+ characters in I4-I8 as well.
|
"My inner mind has become a reality-cracking overgod. He torments me! Help!"
Have you tried the renewed Praetorian arcs in COH late game (40-50)?
SPOILERS AHEAD!
To me it seems the devs finally started to go around the defense minigame by introducing +to-hit-toggeled mobs... Resistance guys run around with targeting drones and my softcapped characters (even my SL-capped fire-TANK) get squished when i do not pay close attention to my agro... problem is they also have a better perception so if i get in range for taunt they have already noticed me. Also they use stealth, so don't wander carelessly in seemingly empty rooms...
I'm starting to build a res-based tank/brute (with defenses) or something now. I want to be able to defeat these guys (and not only at +0/x1)... I need to find a way... That's what's fun to me in this game.
Currently thinking about something with Invul or DA (as i don't like stone armor).
Have fun!
Schlu.
--
PPD: "Nothing to see here... move along... move along..."
Well, one of the nice things about this game's fundamental structure is that most everything has a foil; it's just a matter of how well-distributed those foils are, how well-handled they are. I think it's generally better to have a strong foil to your normal strategy, but mix up who is foiled by what. In a typical spawn of midlevel CoT, the regen characters and willpower characters are going to fear the Twilight Grasp of a Death Mage, while the Shields character is going to hope to avoid the Quicksand of the Earth Thorn Casters.
Defence was getting too good? Time to introduce some foils to that, spread 'em around a little.
Of course... but if I can build a build specifically against these mobs... NOONE WILL BE ABLE TO STOP ME! MUHAHAHAAAA! ... *thinking about what I just wrote*... See people? THIS is what happens when you change sides with your beloved Brute...
I'm thinking of foiling the foil... with a new completely undefeatable build dishing out unbelievable damage, which nobody has thought of yet... Don't you look at me like that! I can have dreams, can't I?
Have fun!
--
PPD: "Nothing to see here... move along... move along..."
Quote:
I don't think so. Some of the existing game content is just stupid-easy. The Praetorian content does seem more difficult, in general, but it's like the difference between a random Kings Row mission vs Atta or Frostfire. With the Praetorian content, you need to consistently pay attention to tactics or the enemies will wipe the floor with you.|
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
With GR/I18, are we seeing a shift more towards a need for the IO's (et al) over traditional DO/SO's?
Your Thoughts? |
So, is it harder? Yes. Is it too hard? I don't think so.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
Interesting - I didn't know about that - to me, it's always been |
Originally Posted by Schismatrix
Actually, begging the question is a type of logical fallacy. <.<
i suspect you meant that it raises a question. |
synonomous with "if the premise were true, it {raises the question - x
or leads me to question - x}" which is what I intended to mean by "begs
the question".
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
Quote:
At level 15:|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
1) You can't IO out and get much benefit under level 20. They're not balancing for IO's, they're balancing for "have to be awake."
|
Let's say 4 slots in a "used a lot" melee attack power.
On Yin-O's and SO's dropped from AV defeats you could have 38% acc and 100%+ damage or 76/76 but most will go 38/100. It won't really be 100 because of ED and I don't have mids to calculate for me, but then it will also drop as you level, whatever, we'll call it a wash.
On IOs "the best" you can do:
Pulverizing Fisticuffs full set level 18, + any 1 extra Acc/Dam level 18:
50.5% Acc/ 50.5% Dam, 21.7% Recharge, 10.1% end
Set: 1.25% negative energy, energy, 0.6% ranged defense.
Or 4x Acc/Dam level 18s:
57.6% acc/57.6% Dam
Neither one is bad, but neither is really OMG Awesome.
At level 17 though things open up a little with the level 20 IO sets coming on line:
4x Kinetic Combat/Smashing Haymaker for the +HP and S/L defense
If we assume 3 attacks, that could be 5.6% def from Haymaker, or 11.25% from Kinetics. You can have both Maneuvers and Combat Jumping at this point.
The % aren't great at this stage, but not terrible either:
16% Acc/ 60.8% Dam/ 28.8% Rech/ 28.8% End for a full set of haymakers or kinetics
4x Acc/Dam are nearly at +3 SO performance (that hits at character level 21, IO level 24): 64%/64%
If you're just chasing set bonuses, one I have done for my parked level 15 I farm AE tickets with is to get an important power with 5 slots and lessers with 2. They go full Bruising blow for the recovery and HP set bonus, and use the Pulverising triple and quad to kick in another 20% accuracy, end and recharge. On the "lesser" power (tier 1 or 2), I run pounding slugfest acc/dam and dam/rech for the regeneration (I'm a claws willpower brute so I do feel it).
Again, you're not Purpled out, but compared to anyone you team with, the difference is really visible. And this is just looking at the melee attacks. There are equivalent gains from other sets.
And I am embarassed to admit I contemplate getting a full set of level 20 kinetic combat for a VEAT...
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
Quote:
i know the distinction isn't that widely known, but it is a long-standing one, which is why i thought it was worth mentioning just to make things clear. Using "begs the question" where "raises the question" is more correct has also become more common in the last several years. Saying that someone is begging the question can be offensive if they're aware of the difference. |
Originally Posted by FourSpeed
Interesting - I didn't know about that - to me, it's always been
synonomous with "if the premise were true, it {raises the question - x or leads me to question - x}" which is what I intended to mean by "begs the question". Regards, 4 |
Yeah, and i'm also working on my admission thesis for the League of Pedants.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Muphry's law, Muphry's Law. "I'm" is capitalized.
/em checks seven words for typo
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Quote:
For over six years i have not capitalized the personal pronoun on these forums when referring to myself, and i'm not about to give up that affectation now.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
|
However, when quoting others i do in fact use proper capitalization. i make absolutely no apologies for this idiosyncrasy.
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Enemies in Praetoria may be harder than Hellions and Skulls, but they pale in comparisson to end-draining Clockwork in the pre-stamina levels, rech-flooring Vahzilok with toxic damage, chain-mezzing CoT mages before anyone has mez protection, tohit-debuffing Spectral Daemon Lords pre-SO's, and other hazardous mobs already present in Paragon City
I've had no problems whatsoever playing Praetorian content on my MM. What I do like, though, is that I can no longer sleepwalk through the content and I actually have to pay some attention in order to avoid getting killed, which isn't a bad thing by any means!
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
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