Masterminds on PUGs, and Other Comedies
By
BenRGamer,
Posted on: 2010-08-31 02:05 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Are LB lowbs "more-or-less Hellions/Skull with different skins"? I don't think so, but maybe it depends on where you meet them. They seem to shine in the Burke LB mission.|
Originally Posted by Dr_Ohm
To be fair, level 1-10 Longbow and Arachnos are more-or-less Hellions with different skins. I mean, the minions are even weaker, lacking the varied melee weapons your average thug packs. Maybe the lieuts are a mite tougher. Arachnos start getting tough in the teens with end-draining Mu and hold resistance, whereas Longbow only really take off at higher levels with Spec-Ops and sonic grenades.
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Yes the LB minion just brawls when in melee, but that brawl does some hefty damage, and it has a pretty fast recharge time. Also every one of them uses a pistol that does descent damage and will debuff your defense, and being they are not a "melee" MOB you will have at least one, and often two of them stand back and shoot you with their debuffing pistol. Another interesting thing about the LB minion is that if you try to pull the one that is in melee with you over to the one that is at range, it will not follow, but switch to the pistol once you are at range. This makes using Auras and short range AOEs more difficult. Also they have enough smash damage resistance to be noticeable, even at lvl 5. If you are primarily smash damage you are going to take at least one, maybe two extra attacks to take out a LB minion, compared to a Skull/Hellion minion. Hellions are supposedly fire resistant, but I cant remember noticing the affects of this resistance at lvl 5.
The LB Lts have two range attacks and a melee attack. One of the range attacks will debuff your defense, and the other has a longer range and a knockdown, and that fricken riffle butt hurts, and has a fairly descent recharge time. They also have smash resistance.
Only one Skull/Hellion minion has a defense debuff, and thats the axe dude, which is a slow melee attack, and he has to be present in the group. Yes they use various melee tools of destruction, and have some other affects, but again that minion has to be present. Also all their damage is smash or lethal, and over time they are doing no more damage than a LB minion. They are melee and easily pulled into melee combat, which makes using auras and short distance AOEs a lot easier.
The Skull/Hellion Lt's are a joke. I used to totally ignore them until I took out the minions, but now I will take out the Machine Gunner, because he has a defense debuff that will stack with itself as long as he does not miss, and he seems to never miss.
At lvl 5 I have little fear of jumping a Skull/Hellion group with multiple Lts and minions. There is no way in hells I would do this with an LB group. Of course the only place I can remember finding multiple LB Lt's and minions in the same place at lvl 5, is the Burke mission.
Wow this thread makes me all fuzzy inside. As a player who loves redside more and tries to steam roll blue side I see this stuff alot. Been with people I know that are playing with a tank and trying to herd and getting mad when I won't let them. Dude if I am on my ill/kin controller there is only 1 speed, never stop for anything. Tank was trying to tell me your going to die man without anything to tank. Then I drop my PA and go does it look like my pets are having any trouble. Oh that and some of my scrappers are for tanking, hello Dark/elec scrapper.
And I don't mind dieing good thing that is learned from redside, people blueside whine every time they die ugg. My elec/elec blaster is going to die and die alot big deal and quit complaining about me dieing.
And no no as far as MMs go I see people that don't edit there attack my target to remove the aggressive. And they keep them on aggressive all the time. I try and educate them and what do I get screaming and yelling. Oh and I do use my Heel for those times when you need a lease or when you want to run through somewhere.
And you know what would suck on so many levels being a MM in a safeguard. Dude it is so boring. Just want to kill something. But nooo I have to protect stuff and run here and there.
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My Dark Armor Tanker occasionally dies on purpose for the free refill. It's always fun to watch the team freak out thinking they're going to die despite everything in the area being stunned and the Tanker back on his feet.
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Originally Posted by OmnipotentMerlin
And I don't mind dieing good thing that is learned from redside, people blueside whine every time they die ugg.
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As they should. The team wants to play a certain way and you aren't working with them. I'd kick you for that kind of behavior.
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Originally Posted by OmnipotentMerlin
Wow this thread makes me all fuzzy inside. As a player who loves redside more and tries to steam roll blue side I see this stuff alot. Been with people I know that are playing with a tank and trying to herd and getting mad when I won't let them.
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*Ahem* Dark Armor Sucks.
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Originally Posted by Chaos Creator
Other than /elec elec/ I don't know anyone foolish enough to dive into +4 carnies.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Originally Posted by firespray
As far as enemy groups go, sure longbow and arachnos are hard, but heroes have plenty of difficult enemy groups too. Things can go wrong real fast when fighting malta or carnies, and anyone who's fought soldiers of Rularuu knows what a nightmare they can be. |
Except that Villains fight those groups in addition to Malta and Carnies(and the rare Rularuu as well). I don't think CoT Succubi spawn on hero side do they?
Overall Villains have to deal with harder mobs more often and sooner than Heroes.
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Indeed. Villains get Carnies 10 levels earlier than Heroes tend to.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Except that Villains fight those groups in addition to Malta and Carnies(and the rare Rularuu as well). I don't think CoT Succubi spawn on hero side do they?
Overall Villains have to deal with harder mobs more often and sooner than Heroes. |
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This is what CoX is doing right imo. With each new zone they create, they place harder and harder enemies for people to face. Comparatively speaking, Praetoria's a lot tougher than Atlas/Galaxy or Mercy Isle. Level for level, they've made better mobs and better missions in Praetoria.
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Except that Villains fight those groups in addition to Malta and Carnies(and the rare Rularuu as well). I don't think CoT Succubi spawn on hero side do they?
Overall Villains have to deal with harder mobs more often and sooner than Heroes. |
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To make it a little less of a headache, though, don't Master Illusionists not spawn until 40?
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Indeed. Villains get Carnies 10 levels earlier than Heroes tend to.
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Having Vengeance and Fallout slotted for recharge means never having to say you're sorry.
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I'm not sure actucally, possbily. That just means those other wenches do instead, the ones that can do horrific things to your Melee toon. I do seem to get a lot of them alright.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
To make it a little less of a headache, though, don't Master Illusionists not spawn until 40?
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I am talking when the only one that want him to herd is the tank. We got a whole team that isn't having any trouble with chaining mobs, I try not to be the one adding in mobs, but the tank is mad cause he has no purpose anymore other then to take aggro.|
Originally Posted by firespray
As they should. The team wants to play a certain way and you aren't working with them. I'd kick you for that kind of behavior.
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I do feel sorry for tanks cause pre GR in most cases a scrapper can do a tanks job decently and faster. And when you have a team of 3 scrappers you got enough extra pusdo tanks to not have to worry about getting mobs in one little group.
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Yeah, but you still have to deal with Ring Mistresses. But now, don't worry! Not every Carnie minion drains END on death! Just a random one or two.
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Originally Posted by Kelenar
To make it a little less of a headache, though, don't Master Illusionists not spawn until 40?
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Dark Ring Misstresses are da debil due to the Mask oF Vitation debuff, yes.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I'm not sure actucally, possbily. That just means those other wenches do instead, the ones that can do horrific things to your Melee toon. I do seem to get a lot of them alright.
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As for the rest of the discussion: Tanks are on the way out barring SF and TF's and some AV's. I said it a while ago and I find it to be coming true, at least in a lot of PUGs. There are just too many infringements now upon their niche, and it will get worse once those n00b MM's and Br00ts get cracking.
Masterminds annoy everybody, sooner or later. Heck, Masterminds annoy themselves.
-ShadowsBetween
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It's been pointed out, but I'll say it again for fun.|
Originally Posted by firespray
As far as enemy groups go, sure longbow and arachnos are hard, but heroes have plenty of difficult enemy groups too. Things can go wrong real fast when fighting malta or carnies, and anyone who's fought soldiers of Rularuu knows what a nightmare they can be.
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Redside play will see you regularly face off against Arachnos, Carnies, Longbow, Malta & PPD.
Now on GV tip missions, you sometimes have the joy running into some of those enemy groups on the same map, even Rularuu can show up to the party.
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There's bound to be some instances of "dey tuuk are jerbs!" but barring master of taskforces I notice I find myself not caring about what the other guy's AT is. If I'm broadcasting "LFM for hero/vig/rog/vil missions!" or "LFM for doors!" or whatnot, the first 7 people who send me tells gets invited. |
Originally Posted by Blunt_Trauma
As for the rest of the discussion: Tanks are on the way out barring SF and TF's and some AV's. I said it a while ago and I find it to be coming true, at least in a lot of PUGs. There are just too many infringements now upon their niche, and it will get worse once those n00b MM's and Br00ts get cracking.
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3 tanks? 4 tanks? 5 tanks and a wombat? Sure! Let's go!
PS: I find most tanks I invite actually do decent damage and are very sturdy. Most times we all tend to scatter inside the mission anyways make it go faster. Only type I'm hesitant to invite again are the Haelzorz ones who only took emp heals and ra (no fort, CM, dingleberry, etc) and just sit back and spam heal aura.
I'm stunned that there are people who actually think there is a significant difficulty difference between hero and villain side. I've played both to 50 more then once and this self-serving observation simply doesn't pan out.
I am also stunned that so many red side players seem to think that they are in some way more skilled then blue side players. I suppose the misconception that red content is harder then blue leads to this further error (or the first misconception is formulated to provide support for the deceleration of superiority). I run quite a bit of mixed content and in my observation, this claim is simply false.
I am further stunned that anyone thinks that it is difficult for a well built tank to jump into a mob of +4/8 carnies. I'll be happy to show you any time.
You people have stun locked me.
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The fact that this is a common, even prevalent attitude towards team composition in this game is one of the reasons I love this game |
Originally Posted by Red Pirate Boggarts
If I'm broadcasting "LFM for hero/vig/rog/vil missions!" or "LFM for doors!" or whatnot, the first 7 people who send me tells gets invited.
3 tanks? 4 tanks? 5 tanks and a wombat? Sure! Let's go! |
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Um dude redside is harder then blue. Period. There were lots of things done with the development of City of Villians that were improvements. Things like redside is streamlined. There was also the fact that MMs were made which made it so they needed to increase the difficulty to compensate for them. You don't have burn patches blue side. You don't have the amount of debuff that redside has. Also redside the ATs throw more damage out so everything needs to be more beefy to survive. Blue side it is quite easy to blow through lvls up to 30 without dieing that can't be said for redside. Also a lot of work has been done on hero's "Hazard zones" to make them not as hard. Hollows is a joke now. It wasn't every really hard just had to play smart. Now it is almost impossible to die.|
Originally Posted by DeaconBlue
I am also stunned that so many red side players seem to think that they are in some way more skilled then blue side players. I suppose the misconception that red content is harder then blue leads to this further error (or the first misconception is formulated to provide support for the deceleration of superiority). I run quite a bit of mixed content and in my observation, this claim is simply false.
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Each side has fundamental differences just like Pretoria does to the old zones. Villians was designed around the fact that there are no set roles for there ATs, you want to know something Masterminds are supposed to be the tanks redside not bruisers. Heroes was designed around that each toon had a certain role to do. But you want to be honest Pretoria is the hardest. It was designed around the fact that both sides would be doing it. And that you would be soloing it. Each release to a game increases the challenge level because if you make the next addon to a game easier then people won't play it.
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Surely, as seems to be the contention here, if the redside ATs were superior to Blueside then everyone would find Praetoria more difficult on blueside ATs. That is not my experience, so therefore your argument must be false.
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Originally Posted by OmnipotentMerlin
Um dude redside is harder then blue. Period. There were lots of things done with the development of City of Villians that were improvements. Things like redside is streamlined. There was also the fact that MMs were made which made it so they needed to increase the difficulty to compensate for them. You don't have burn patches blue side. You don't have the amount of debuff that redside has. Also redside the ATs throw more damage out so everything needs to be more beefy to survive. Blue side it is quite easy to blow through lvls up to 30 without dieing that can't be said for redside. Also a lot of work has been done on hero's "Hazard zones" to make them not as hard. Hollows is a joke now. It wasn't every really hard just had to play smart. Now it is almost impossible to die.
Each side has fundamental differences just like Pretoria does to the old zones. Villians was designed around the fact that there are no set roles for there ATs, you want to know something Masterminds are supposed to be the tanks redside not bruisers. Heroes was designed around that each toon had a certain role to do. But you want to be honest Pretoria is the hardest. It was designed around the fact that both sides would be doing it. And that you would be soloing it. Each release to a game increases the challenge level because if you make the next addon to a game easier then people won't play it. |
Redside ATs are built more for soloing, Blueside ATs are built more for teams.
When did I say redside AT's were superior. I said redside itself is harder. The content redside is harder not the AT. I said villians die more redside then heroes die blue side where in that statement makes it sound like villains are more powerful. The only AT that can be considered more powerful then any other is MMs just for how the AT is done but MMs still have there weaknesses like hmm burn patches.
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Just like heroes fight longbow and arachnos. |
Originally Posted by DMystic
Except that Villains fight those groups in addition to Malta and Carnies(and the rare Rularuu as well).
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Originally Posted by DMystic
Overall Villains have to deal with harder mobs more often and sooner than Heroes.
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With the exception of PPD, heroes fight all those groups at high level too (I don't know of any missions where heroes face off against PPD). We get Carnies and Malta a bit more frequently than Longbow, but we get to fight them all as well.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Redside play will see you regularly face off against Arachnos, Carnies, Longbow, Malta & PPD.
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This part of your statement is pretty close to right. As far as the rest goes, you are quite wrong.
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Originally Posted by OmnipotentMerlin
Each side has fundamental differences just like Pretoria does to the old zones. Villians was designed around the fact that there are no set roles for there ATs, you want to know something Masterminds are supposed to be the tanks redside not bruisers. Heroes was designed around that each toon had a certain role to do. But you want to be honest Pretoria is the hardest.
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Honestly, neither blueside or redside is better/worse or harder/easier than the other. They are simply designed differently.
In general Blueside ATs are designed to do one thing very well, but they aren't all that broadly talented. Due to this a bad blueside team can become pigeonholed and not be able to react well to things that challenge them, this is often seen in game by people feeling that they always need a tank or a healer, or like they have to wait for the tank to herd before they can do anything. A good blueside team on the other hand works like a well oiled machine. Every AT fits neatly into place and the whole is much greater than the sum of its parts, steamrolling over anything that comes along.
In general Redside ATs are designed more broadly and solo better (for the most part), but don't have as clearly defined roles in a team as blueside ATs do, and aren't as good at a single particular thing as blueside ATs are. A bad redside team can act more like a mob of individuals who just happen to be on the same map than they can an actual team, with people running all over the place and no one really working together. A good redside team on the other hand is a fast, deadly, adaptive group that rides the knife edge between awesomeness and disaster, and usually comes out ahead.
As far as enemy groups go, sure longbow and arachnos are hard, but heroes have plenty of difficult enemy groups too. Things can go wrong real fast when fighting malta or carnies, and anyone who's fought soldiers of Rularuu knows what a nightmare they can be.