Just gonna mention something real fast and not really answer cause I'm bias'd towards brutes.
Resist has no bearing on a DM/SD.
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Yep, that I realize. I'm open to other powerset suggestions, since it does seem from what I've read that Brutes and Scrappers have different advantages with different sets.
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Originally Posted by LygerZero
Just gonna mention something real fast and not really answer cause I'm bias'd towards brutes.
Resist has no bearing on a DM/SD. |
It's an open question. Subjectively people have their preferences, Objectively the hard numbers will bear out over time.
As Brutes just got tweaked a bit a couple of weeks ago (supposedly to bring them inline to be between Scrappers and Tankers), it's hard to say exactly as the basis of past experience is based on a different power scale.
Personally, having a lot of Scrapper experience and a fair amount of Brute experience, in the past I would have said Brutes are more powerful pound for pound and on average / in general.
Now, I'll have to wait and see but having leveled a couple of Brutes from 1 to 21 (Fire/Fire) and 1 to 28 (KM/EA) in the last two weeks I'm still feeling that Brutes have a bit of an edge on Scrappers. Even if you discount the higher mitigation cap (which I don't benefit from anyway with the particular powersets I've chosen, so its largely a moot point), the extra hitpoints is an edge. The lower base damage is also easily circumvented as its easy to get up to and maintain 80-120% Fury.
However, with the Brutes you have to keep attacking to stay ahead of the power curve. If you can't do that either due to in-game concerns (insufficient END management, overly squishy) or external concerns (distractions, kids, needy pet, nagging gf) then you will be constantly trying to build your Fury back up from 0%, and an equivalent Scrapper would perform better.
Similarly when teamed, on a speed-team Brutes rock. On teams that stop and go the Scrapper is better off. If you are in a SG or team with the same people a lot this should weigh into your decision making process.
All that aside, I still feel that Scrappers have the edge when going up against purples / hard targets particularly in one on one fights as their flat higher damage and crits are more stable than Fury and also people tend to burn inspirs more freely vs such opponents and Scrappers higher base allows them to get more usage out of red inspirs, but again that's just my opinion and I have no real numbers to back it up.
Right now, there seems to be an influx of Brutes on blue side for obvious reasons. So I'm sure that over the next couple / few months there will be enough side by side comparisons to help people get a feel as to how Brutes and Scrappers really perform relative to each other. So...really...just stay tuned as this Coke vs Pepsi affair plays out.
I haven't tried this yet but after 20 when you get the villain power which sets your fury 100% with the click of a button once every 6 minutes that should help out a lot with the occasional fury stalls which should benefit the Brute a lot. It doesn't change the fact they have to keep fury up but this way if Fury crashes for some reason you have a nice way to get back in the grove.
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What villain power are you talking about here? Also, it is pretty much impossible to ever have your fury bar at 100%
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Originally Posted by Mr_Frost
I haven't tried this yet but after 20 when you get the villain power which sets your fury 100% with the click of a button once every 6 minutes that should help out a lot with the occasional fury stalls which should benefit the Brute a lot. It doesn't change the fact they have to keep fury up but this way if Fury crashes for some reason you have a nice way to get back in the grove.
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Its the new villain power you get for reaffirming that your evil thru tip missions...|
Originally Posted by Gruumch
What villain power are you talking about here? Also, it is pretty much impossible to ever have your fury bar at 100%
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For brutes it puts you at max fury when you click it.
Edit: Just looked in game and while the description says that "Brute will have their rage bar filled" the power details list it as only a 60% damage buff.
When you click the power it does indeed put you at 100% fury though
Global: @Kelig
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Alignment power you get for reinforcing your alignment as a villain.
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Originally Posted by Gruumch
What villain power are you talking about here? Also, it is pretty much impossible to ever have your fury bar at 100%
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With GR/I18, it already happenned. Brutes' fury have been nerfed for top user. So scrappers will always do better damage (with the same powersets) especialy when you factor in shield or fiery aura.|
Originally Posted by Xinn
However, it looks like Brutes have comparable DPS (and even advantages with some powersets--I seem to recall reading that Fire DoTs benefit from Fury, but not a Scrapper's crit).
Right now it seems like Brutes have comparable damage to Scrappers going for them, as well as a higher HP, a higher resist ceiling, and a higher top-end damage ceiling when team buffed. I realize damage may get scaled back (or Scrappers may get scaled forward) to pronounce class differences now that characters can switch sides, but in general, the Brute seems better-rounded. Is that accurate? |
Still, both should be more or less as good to solo content. On a scrapper, you'll spend a bit more inf for protection, while on a brute it's for even better recharge (for damage.)
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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I seriously doubt a Dark/Dark scrapper will outdamage my Dark/Dark brute when he gets the current max Fury. I mean it, too.
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
With GR/I18, it already happenned. Brutes' fury have been nerfed for top user. So scrappers will always do better damage (with the same powersets) especialy when you factor in shield or fiery aura.
Still, both should be more or less as good to solo content. On a scrapper, you'll spend a bit more inf for protection, while on a brute it's for even better recharge (for damage.) |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
Solo capabilities aside, Brutes get War Maces while Scrappers don't, and that's pretty much the end of it as far as I'm concerned.
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I don't see how this is true. It's certainly harder to get to 90% fury than before, but I don't have any problems reaching 80% solo or teamed, which is the amount I base all my calculations in Mids on. And guess what - at 80% fury, a brute does more damage than a scrapper, except on those sets that make significant use of +damage buffs, of course (SD and DB for example, although Claws are interestingly an exception to this as the brute base numbers on the attacks are higher than scrapper ones).|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
With GR/I18, it already happenned. Brutes' fury have been nerfed for top user. So scrappers will always do better damage (with the same powersets) especialy when you factor in shield or fiery aura.
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The #1 reason why I vastly prefer brutes to scrappers is that they have a much easier time leveling up. Scrappers do piddly damage until they stuff 2-3 damage SOs in their attacks, while brutes have great damage out of the box thanks to fury.
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Mids disagrees with you. At 3 damage SOs in the attacks and saturated Soul Drain for both toons, with 100% fury for the brute, the scrapper wins:|
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
I seriously doubt a Dark/Dark scrapper will outdamage my Dark/Dark brute when he gets the current max Fury. I mean it, too.
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Smite - 286.1 scrapper > 270.3 brute
Siphon Life - 424.8 scrapper > 401.3 brute
Midnight Grasp - 598.2 scrapper > 565.1 brute
Brute only wins by a tiny amount with Death Shroud at 41 damage vs 39.4 for the scrapper. At 91% fruy the brute is down to the same damage with Death Shroud and to an even bigger difference with the other attacks.
That's how it goes for sets which rely on +damage.
Btw, FA still favors the brute because it doesn't have +damage buffs but adds straight up damage, and fire DoTs are affected by fury (for example Burn) but not affected by crits.
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How do you stay at 80% fury exactly? Aside from using the frenzied temp powers since it won't last.|
Originally Posted by Exxar
I don't see how this is true. It's certainly harder to get to 90% fury than before, but I don't have any problems reaching 80% solo or teamed, which is the amount I base all my calculations in Mids on. And guess what - at 80% fury, a brute does more damage than a scrapper, except on those sets that make significant use of +damage buffs, of course (SD and DB for example, although Claws are interestingly an exception to this as the brute base numbers on the attacks are higher than scrapper ones).
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| The #1 reason why I vastly prefer brutes to scrappers is that they have a much easier time leveling up. Scrappers do piddly damage until they stuff 2-3 damage SOs in their attacks, while brutes have great damage out of the box thanks to fury. |
That's also why i loved brutes. Having +150% dam under lvl 20 helps a lot and scrappers can't beat that. Not without slotting any dam.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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Actually, with the adjustments it's really more that neither AT has any significant advantage over the other. |
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
With GR/I18, it already happenned. Brutes' fury have been nerfed for top user. So scrappers will always do better damage (with the same powersets) especialy when you factor in shield or fiery aura.
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It used to be that top-end brutes would blow top-end scrappers away, now they are much closer in top-end performance.
The only advantage brutes retained is in the higher resistance caps and higher HP (more HP gives defense based sets an advantage)
Also, in short fights, like you would find on a lot of teams, scrappers have a slight advantage because they don't have a fury bar to fill. They will do good damage from the very start of a fight, while a brute has to build up into doing good damage.
So, nowadays it's pretty much a wash and more of a case of which playstyle you prefer.
Me? I like them both.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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The same way as always. I take the alpha and smash stuff like a cackling madman. Instead of spiking to 95% fury like before, it spikes to a bit over 80% and suddenly slows down. Further than that, the fight has to last a bit longer.
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Originally Posted by FireWyvern
How do you stay at 80% fury exactly? Aside from using the frenzied temp powers since it won't last.
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*sigh* Okay. In that case, I'd like to see a Scrapper be more fun than my Brute. For me? It's not. Too squishy. Sure, it'd play like a Brute, but it'd die a whole lot easier.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Actually, with the adjustments it's really more that neither AT has any significant advantage over the other.
It used to be that top-end brutes would blow top-end scrappers away, now they are much closer in top-end performance. The only advantage brutes retained is in the higher resistance caps and higher HP (more HP gives defense based sets an advantage) Also, in short fights, like you would find on a lot of teams, scrappers have a slight advantage because they don't have a fury bar to fill. They will do good damage from the very start of a fight, while a brute has to build up into doing good damage. So, nowadays it's pretty much a wash and more of a case of which playstyle you prefer. Me? I like them both. |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim
*sigh* Okay. In that case, I'd like to see a Scrapper be more fun than my Brute. For me? It's not. Too squishy. Sure, it'd play like a Brute, but it'd die a whole lot easier.
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Fun is subjective.
Some people find both ATs boring as hell. Some find Scrapper criticals too nice to pass up and think having to maintain fury is a real game breaker for them.
I'm with Claws, I like them both.
Although, to be entirely honest, if every single Scrapper powerset were given to brutes, I'd never play a Scrapper again.
"Through Avarice evil smiles; through insanity it sings"
Forum Troll Rule #1: Anyone who disagrees with my point of view is either a fanboy or an idiot.
I'm a proud carebear.
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As much hate as it will probably generate, I hope a handful of sets do not get proliferated.|
Originally Posted by Faolon
Fun is subjective.
I'm with Claws, I like them both. Although, to be entirely honest, if every single Scrapper powerset were given to brutes, I'd never play a Scrapper again. |
Now that Brutes and Scrappers all play in the same sandbox, it would be nice to let them each keep some unique possibilities in their powersets.
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Long live Brute Energy Melee.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
As much hate as it will probably generate, I hope a handful of sets do not get proliferated.
Now that Brutes and Scrappers all play in the same sandbox, it would be nice to let them each keep some unique possibilities in their powersets. |
My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
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And if every Brute powerset were given to Scrappers, SS/SD/Body Scrappers would win the game. But on the plus side, it would actually make them fix Energy Aura.
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Originally Posted by Faolon
Although, to be entirely honest, if every single Scrapper powerset were given to brutes, I'd never play a Scrapper again.
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Have you seen the math on what happens if you give /regen to brutes with their higher hit point numbers?
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Originally Posted by tarrantm
And if every Brute powerset were given to Scrappers, SS/SD/Body Scrappers would win the game. But on the plus side, it would actually make them fix Energy Aura.
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"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Have you seen the math on what happens if you give /regen to brutes with their higher hit point numbers?
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My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."
a regen brute would be awesome to see but yea between the two A.T.'s its really a matter of play style imo
One by one bunny's steal my common sense for banana's on Ebay.
Honestly, they get about the same numbers for their secondary power sets on all the ones they share so the only real difference in survivability is the higher caps the brute has.
It comes down to damage.
Scrappers have slightly higher base damage in their attacks and thus benefit more from slotting for damage. It doesn't seem to be that big a difference in my opinion.
Stalkers actually have a higher chance to crit than scrappers, especially on teams, and have about the same defenses as well, aside from lower hp/caps.
The biggest thing though, for me, is the difference between crits and fury.
I hate the RNG sometimes and sometimes I love it, but mostly I just hate not being consistent and having dependable performance when I need it.
Fury is consistent and dependable while crits are completely random.
A brute will always be able to do great damage, especially with just a little ramp up time.
A scrapper will only do great damage if they get lucky with the RNG, but they still only get an average of 10% crit chance at most.
Do you choose a 100% chance for at least 115%(75-80% fury is at least a 120% damage buff) damage buff after a short period, which stays there a lot easier than it used to, or a 10% chance of a 100% damage buff?
The extra percentage buff of fury over the 100% scrappers get covers the lower base damage easily, and fury is completely controllable and consistent.
Crits only give you a 100% damage buff and at very random times. Sometimes you're lucky to see even one crit and sometimes you crit every hit, but you end up averaging only having that 100% buff to one strike 10% of the time.
Oh, that crit won't happen if the attack misses either and the lucky roll that gave you the crit will be wasted on air.
Brutes don't have to worry about misses because it still keeps their fury up and they can use the buff on the next hit and every hit after that. It just keeps growing.
When it comes to soloing content--whether that means a single target like a Pylon, or an entire TF--are both ATs generally on par?
I'm currently trying a DM/SD Scrapper. However, it looks like Brutes have comparable DPS (and even advantages with some powersets--I seem to recall reading that Fire DoTs benefit from Fury, but not a Scrapper's crit). On top of that, they have a higher HP pool and a potential 90% Resist cap in late game.
I'm still relatively new to the game, but how do the two classes stack up? Is it generally a safe bet that a well-played, well-built Brute can solo roughly the same content as a well-played, well-built Scrapper? Or is the game such that, assuming soft caps, damage becomes king and resists are negligible?
On top of that, what does each sacrifice as far as teamwork in order to be optimized for solo play?
I'm big on two things: soloing and optimizing the potential of a class. Right now it seems like Brutes have comparable damage to Scrappers going for them, as well as a higher HP, a higher resist ceiling, and a higher top-end damage ceiling when team buffed. I realize damage may get scaled back (or Scrappers may get scaled forward) to pronounce class differences now that characters can switch sides, but in general, the Brute seems better-rounded. Is that accurate?