City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

Brute solo vs Scrapper solo

Altyrian

By Altyrian,
Posted on: 2010-08-30 10:08 in Brutes

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade View Post
Have you seen the math on what happens if you give /regen to brutes with their higher hit point numbers?
Can't be any better than /regen scrappers with Shadowmeld. But in all honestly, more defense with adequate offense doesn't breaks things as much as more offense with adequate defense.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledneh_ View Post
Solo capabilities aside, Brutes get War Maces while Scrappers don't, and that's pretty much the end of it as far as I'm concerned.
I just started playing a war mace brute and love it so much more than any of the punchy or stabby scrappers I tried... is that imbalanced?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
*sigh* Okay. In that case, I'd like to see a Scrapper be more fun than my Brute. For me? It's not. Too squishy. Sure, it'd play like a Brute, but it'd die a whole lot easier.

Huh? My Kat/Wp has the same Def / Res as a Brute and has 2100 Hp’s. With a base 30% Def, 52% resist after IO’s (75% Melee Def with 3x Divine Avalanche) I have no clue what you mean by squishy. My Scrapper has survived the same stuff my tank has and in some cases with the 1000%+ Regen he does even better.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brakner View Post
Huh? My Kat/Wp has the same Def / Res as a Brute and has 2100 Hp’s. With a base 32% Def, 52% resist after IO’s (77% Melee Def with 3x Divine Avalanche) I have no clue what you mean by squishy. My Scrapper has survived the same stuff my tank has and in some cases with the 1000%+ Regen he does even better.
I meant comparing my Dark/Dark brute to a Dark/Dark scrapper.

Besides, this is without set bonuses. Any build can be LORD OF EVERYTHING with a bunch of Kinetic Combat sets, these days.

My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
I meant comparing my Dark/Dark brute to a Dark/Dark scrapper.

Besides, this is without set bonuses. Any build can be LORD OF EVERYTHING with a bunch of Kinetic Combat sets, these days.
Oh, ok.... So we are comparing just one powerset and not Brutes Vs Scrappers, got it.

Don't have a single Kinetic Combat, I build for all defense types and play missions with all types opponents. S/L is a one trick pony that will get your *** handed to you outside of AE. A balance of Melee, Ranged, Resist, HP’s and Regen works best

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brakner View Post
Oh, ok.... So we are comparing just one powerset and not Brutes Vs Scrappers, got it.
Actually, comparing 2 identical sets between different archetypes is a valid comparison.
How else would you compare the two archetypes? Would you compare them like comparing an apple to a ball? They both may be mostly round, but that's one of very very few similarities.

There are plenty of points of commonality to compare brutes and scrappers to each other when you use identical sets. If there weren't then a comparison would be pointless and silly, like comparing an apple to a ball.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus View Post
Actually, comparing 2 identical sets between different archetypes is a valid comparison.
How else would you compare the two archetypes? Would you compare them like comparing an apple to a ball? They both may be mostly round, but that's one of very very few similarities.

There are plenty of points of commonality to compare brutes and scrappers to each other when you use identical sets. If there weren't then a comparison would be pointless and silly, like comparing an apple to a ball.
True, but the class strength and weakness are a combination of all powersets in that class not just Dark vs Dark or Fire vs Fire. Some do well in a class, some dont.

Scrappers have Regen, BS and Kat, Brutes have WM. I would say if you add up all the (solo)survivable points of each class Scrappers would win with those 3 alone. If you take into account teams and buffing I would say Brutes win with the higher Res cap and HP's.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brakner View Post
Oh, ok.... So we are comparing just one powerset and not Brutes Vs Scrappers, got it.

Don't have a single Kinetic Combat, I build for all defense types and play missions with all types opponents. S/L is a one trick pony that will get your *** handed to you outside of AE. A balance of Melee, Ranged, Resist, HP’s and Regen works best
I was only using the Kinetic Combats as an example. S/L is not in the least a one-trick pony; they're both THE most common damage types in the game.

Comparing two sets, as T said, is valid. My comparison still stands: A Dark/Dark Brute will always out-fun a Dark/Dark Scrapper for me. Brutes have higher HP/HP cap, higher resist/defense caps, and they have Fury which for me, will always win out over Crit chances. Don't get me wrong, I love my BS/Regen scrapper to death. But the fact that I use him as a damage-oriented character and not a "dish it AND take it" character is a testament to my desired playstyle. Same reason I only use my Stone/NRG Tanker for tanking, not for pumping out gobs of orange numbers.

My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."

 

Posted

If you only consider solo situation, have you considered Stalker? :P

I think Brute is quite over-rated. No offense. Brute is the only Villain AT I don't have at lvl 50. I don't like chasing Fury because I may go away for a bit.


Now that I see more Scrappers on the red side, Scrapper's raw damage is very impressive. Most people like to talk about the "high-end" of performance so of course that favors Brute.

And if you like melee and contributing more to the team, have you considered Crab or Night Widow SoA? I've been playing my lvl 50 Crab and man, he puts most Brutes to shame in terms of aoe damage and buffs/debuffs.

What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.

 

Posted

Personally, I don't even pay attention to Fury. I've been playing my endgame Brutes for the last week and I really just go from mob to mob and beat things up. I do feel compelled to keep moving _because_ of Fury, but I don't go through the motions of analyzing it or spending any time fretting about keeping it up. Also, it's fairly quick to build up, so even if I go AFK a minute, by the time I floor the next group or two, I'm already back up there. Just how I look at it.

 

Posted

You don't chase Fury. Fury comes to you. No Brute player I know really pays attention to that bar - it's just there.

But in terms of Scrapper vs. Brute I feel that Brutes are far easier to level from 1-22, because of the increased damage from Fury. But once you hit 22 and the Scrappers drop a few SOs/IOs into their attacks, the two ATs even out.

At endgame, it all comes down to how your slot your characters and your powerset combinations. I prefer my Brutes because they feel like they hit harder, even though I know my Scrappers do more damage.

Also, Brutes feel like the perfect balance between Tankers and Scrappers, so they get my vote.

Also, Scrappers do feel really squishy before they hit 50, despite the fact that their defensive numbers are exactly the same as a Brutes. Its got something to do with the Scrapper's lower HP numbers (and there aren't any +HP accolades available pre-50 on Blueside to improve this). And even after they hit 50, they can still feel really squishy (depending on powerset).

 

Posted

stone melee says what's war mace? and what's a scrapper?

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibikao View Post
If you only consider solo situation, have you considered Stalker? :P

I think Brute is quite over-rated. No offense. Brute is the only Villain AT I don't have at lvl 50. I don't like chasing Fury because I may go away for a bit.


Now that I see more Scrappers on the red side, Scrapper's raw damage is very impressive. Most people like to talk about the "high-end" of performance so of course that favors Brute.

And if you like melee and contributing more to the team, have you considered Crab or Night Widow SoA? I've been playing my lvl 50 Crab and man, he puts most Brutes to shame in terms of aoe damage and buffs/debuffs.
Brutes are not just for high end damage. They buffed(in my opinion) Fury by making it much easier to get up to 75% and keep it up there even if you're soloing at a relatively leisurely pace.


By the way, scrapper have worse crit chance than stalkers and both are HEAVILY dependent on luck with the RNG.
I like consistency a lot more and Fury is consistent.

Instead of 1 in 10 attacks being buffed 100%, I see every attack, after maybe the first 15 seconds, being buffed 135% or more.
That trumps even the perfect crit scenario.



I'll take higher defenses and higher consistent damage thank you very much, even if it takes a little initial ramp up.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus View Post
By the way, scrapper have worse crit chance than stalkers and both are HEAVILY dependent on luck with the RNG.
I like consistency a lot more and Fury is consistent.

Instead of 1 in 10 attacks being buffed 100%, I see every attack, after maybe the first 15 seconds, being buffed 135% or more.
That trumps even the perfect crit scenario.

I'll take higher defenses and higher consistent damage thank you very much, even if it takes a little initial ramp up.
I like consistency too. That's why I mostly play the AT with the 1.125% base melee dmg instead of the one with .75 that needs buffs to get to get up to speed.


Reality is that I love both ATs and with all the inherents and damage slotting factored in, Scrappers and Brutes are buffed to similar levels of damage output. The only significant different is powerset choice.

Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.

▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus View Post
Brutes are not just for high end damage. They buffed(in my opinion) Fury by making it much easier to get up to 75% and keep it up there even if you're soloing at a relatively leisurely pace.


By the way, scrapper have worse crit chance than stalkers and both are HEAVILY dependent on luck with the RNG.
I like consistency a lot more and Fury is consistent.

Instead of 1 in 10 attacks being buffed 100%, I see every attack, after maybe the first 15 seconds, being buffed 135% or more.
That trumps even the perfect crit scenario.



I'll take higher defenses and higher consistent damage thank you very much, even if it takes a little initial ramp up.
Your math skills are impressive.

When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...

BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus View Post
Scrappers have slightly higher base damage in their attacks and thus benefit more from slotting for damage. It doesn't seem to be that big a difference in my opinion.
Scrapper's attacks at base are 150% of a Brutes with the same attack.

Not sure how that qualifies as "slightly".

Quote:
Do you choose a 100% chance for at least 115%(75-80% fury is at least a 120% damage buff) damage buff after a short period, which stays there a lot easier than it used to, or a 10% chance of a 100% damage buff?
Well, when you need about 100% of that damage buff just to match the Scrapper, I would probably pick the Scrapper. YMMV

The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Test_Rat View Post
Your math skills are impressive.
Let's see if he's right.

Stupid_Fanboy gave us the damage mods: 1.125 for scrappers, .75 for brutes

T_Immortalus gave us the 75% fury and 10% crit rate

I'll throw in build up for both being slotted with 3 rec-red SOs. 10 up, 46.2 recharge, up time of 28%. Scrapper gets 100% buff, brute gets 80%.

1.125 * (1 + .95 + .28) * 1.1 = 2.76

.75 * (1 + .95 + .224 + 1.5) = 2.76

Damn, Castle is good.

Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
Let's see if he's right.

Stupid_Fanboy gave us the damage mods: 1.125 for scrappers, .75 for brutes

T_Immortalus gave us the 75% fury and 10% crit rate

I'll throw in build up for both being slotted with 3 rec-red SOs. 10 up, 46.2 recharge, up time of 28%. Scrapper gets 100% buff, brute gets 80%.

1.125 * (1 + .95 + .28) * 1.1 = 2.76

.75 * (1 + .95 + .224 + 1.5) = 2.76

Damn, Castle is good.
/thread

We just got Bill Z'd.

My guides:Dark Melee/Dark Armor/Soul Mastery, Illusion Control/Kinetics/Primal Forces Mastery, Electric Armor
"Dark Armor is a complete waste as a tanking set."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba View Post
Let's see if he's right.

Stupid_Fanboy gave us the damage mods: 1.125 for scrappers, .75 for brutes

T_Immortalus gave us the 75% fury and 10% crit rate

I'll throw in build up for both being slotted with 3 rec-red SOs. 10 up, 46.2 recharge, up time of 28%. Scrapper gets 100% buff, brute gets 80%.

1.125 * (1 + .95 + .28) * 1.1 = 2.76

.75 * (1 + .95 + .224 + 1.5) = 2.76

Damn, Castle is good.
....unless you get bad rolls with the RNG.

I just know I never wonder "when am I ever going to crit" like I wonder "when am I ever going to hit rather than miss" like I do many times leveling up.

Consistency is just better hands down.

You wouldn't want to take a resistance armor set and find that you only resist 50% of the damage a random 10% of the time would you?
That's why people choose resistance over defense many tiems and why they cap defense as much as possible.


Scrapper may have higher base damage, but fury on brutes just feels stronger and faster. Maybe the numbers balance out perfectly, but I don't see it when I may not get a crit because I have bad luck or kill the enemy in less than 10 hits and never see a crit.

The brute ALWAYS has their damage buff. They don't have to hope that random average crit rate is perfect every time they rush into a mob.

Brutes control their damage while scrappers have to hope and pray tot he RNG gods who have been making them whiff attacks all day. :P






By the way, fury builds whether you or the enemy hit or miss and affects the next, and every, time you hit thereafter. Crits that miss are wasted and don't wait until you hit to buff your damage.

I would say crits happen even less often than 10% on average because you only hit 95% of the time on average. That would mean the true crit rate is more like 9.5%.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus View Post
The brute ALWAYS has their damage buff. They don't have to hope that random average crit rate is perfect every time they rush into a mob.
Where "always" is defined as "while maintaining decent aggro in the middle with teammates who never need to stop between spawns and never die or any time after the first two spawns of a solo map that doesn't have long hallways or elevators or weird missin objectives".




Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus View Post
I would say crits happen even less often than 10% on average because you only hit 95% of the time on average. That would mean the true crit rate is more like 9.5%.
Scrappers also have attacks with a flat 15% crit rate no matter the target. Let's call it an even 10%.

Level 50 is a journey, not a destination.

▲Scrapper Issues List - Going Rogue Edition▲

 

Posted

There's a lot of problems with the way you're thinking.

1: Bad RNG runs happen as often as good RNG runs. Stating "sometimes I just don't get the crits" while ignoring "sometimes I crit way more than expected" is illogical.

2: Crits don't miss. Crits don't happen at all when an attack doesn't land. If you're going to throw on the 5% chance to miss on scrappers, you have to throw it on brutes as well.

Guess what happens when you multiply 2.76 by .95?

On top of that, you're also completely ignoring how damage buffs benefit scrappers more than brutes due to the base damage mod.

Let's add assault to both players and see what happens:
As per City of Data, both brutes and scrappers get a 10.5% buff from assault.
I'll even throw the 5% chance to miss in this time

(1.125 * (1 + .95 + .28 + .105) * 1.1) * .95 = 2.745

(.75 * (1 + .95 + .224 + 1.5 + .105)) * .95 = 2.693

The brute begins to fall behind.

Now let's throw on the buff from Shield's AAO with, say, 5 enemies in range. For a brute that's another 37.5% damage buff. For a scrapper it's 46.875%.

(1.125 * (1 + .95 + .28 + .105 + .46875) * 1.1) * .95 = 3.296

(.75 * (1 + .95 + .224 + 1.5 + .105 + .375)) * .95 = 2.96


Math states that your assumptions are wrong.

Be well, people of CoH.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus View Post
Brutes are not just for high end damage. They buffed(in my opinion) Fury by making it much easier to get up to 75% and keep it up there even if you're soloing at a relatively leisurely pace.

By the way, scrapper have worse crit chance than stalkers and both are HEAVILY dependent on luck with the RNG.
I like consistency a lot more and Fury is consistent.

Instead of 1 in 10 attacks being buffed 100%, I see every attack, after maybe the first 15 seconds, being buffed 135% or more.
That trumps even the perfect crit scenario.

I'll take higher defenses and higher consistent damage thank you very much, even if it takes a little initial ramp up.

Where is this 135% coming from?
Either way, you're forgetting that Brutes have a much lower damage modifier.
Scrappers = 1.125 * 1.05 (crit vs minions) = 1.18
or = 1.125 * 1.10 (crit vs lt/boss/+) = 1.24
Brutes = 0.75 * (1+fury)
That means you need 60% fury to match vs minion damage and 65% to match vs lts and bosses. So with your 75% (or 80%) being what you'd reasonably expect the "average" fury, the Brute might match up to your optimism, right? Wrong!
Because then the formula becomes Mod * (1+enhancement+crit/fury+damage enhancements)...

So, if you enhance to 95%, in most situations where in-set damage buffs aren't taken into consideration, you must maintain 105% fury to match damage against minions, ~112% to match vs bosses.

To the Brutes credit, the AAO numbers on a Scrapper aren't MUCH higher, so the amount of fury they'd have to maintain in a shield:shield comparison is only wee bit more. However, in a Build Up:Build Up scenario, the Brute needs a lot more fury to match up. How much? 175%! UH OH! If SS were ever ported to Scrappers (and kept the BU difference) Brutes wouldn't stand a chance damage wise. I would expect if SS were proliferated, Rage would be changed for this reason.

Brutes really were brought in between tanks and scrappers for both damage and survivability. The Brute will catch up, briefly, if they grab most of the aggro in a large spawn. The only scenario where the Brute will match and possibly beat the Scrapper's damage over time is top level, steam rolling, no breaks, no dying, farming type... and that's only if the Brute is holding all the aggro they can. That means no Tankers and no one showing them up damage wise.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Exxar View Post
I don't see how this is true. It's certainly harder to get to 90% fury than before, but I don't have any problems reaching 80% solo or teamed, which is the amount I base all my calculations in Mids on. And guess what - at 80% fury, a brute does more damage than a scrapper, except on those sets that make significant use of +damage buffs, of course (SD and DB for example, although Claws are interestingly an exception to this as the brute base numbers on the attacks are higher than scrapper ones).
Like your conclusion implied, this comparison doesn't hold up because of enhancements. As stated, SD's numbers are so close that the amount of fury you need extra to match isn't that much, and Follow Up/Blinding Feint would take a little more.

I just wanted to point out that the statement about Claws was sort of misleading. First, because it's patently false. The base numbers are still lower than the scrappers, the difference just isn't as much. They should be 56% of the scrappers (if the recharges matched), they are 66% though. The recharge was increased when they proliferated the set, however, to make more like other Brute sets and therefore play with Fury like it was supposed to. So the DPS difference is actually (slightly) greater, putting the Brute at 51% of the damage, and putting them further behind the Scrapper.

Claw is interesting though because they didn't change the activation times. So Brutes have (by comparison) a higher damage, but lower recharge, therefore "relatively" better DPA. With a full attack chain, the lower DPS is made up for, actually bringing it slightly ahead of the curve for continual-max-DPA-chains in when comparing the difference between the same primary sets.

That's a mouthful. Long story short, Claws plays the "which is better and when" game a little differently, but not by so much that it matters a lot.

Edit:
I took way too long to type... Now I look like one of those people who didn't read everything before he responded. Brevity is a gift that Bill Z seems to have that I do not :-(. His math was probably more accurate too.

@Gilia1
I play heroes on Champion.
I play villains on Virtue.

 

Posted

Yeah, the numbers prove it's all balanced. I know.

I just never find it fun to ever have a huge discrepancy in performance when I'm being consistent.
Crits are just too rare at 10% and don't really make sense to me.

I just think, "if I can give 200% effort into my attack fairly regularly why am I slacking off the other 90% of the time?".
Brutes just make me feel like, "I'm going to give every last punch everything I have; just drop already you evildoer, you're just making me angry, 'you wouldn't like me when I'm angry'"("The Hulk" movie quote).



Also, bad RNG may happen as often as good RNG on average, but the bad RNG times still suck a lot and can get you killed.

I like to always be at my best, not randomly get better or worse.

I already hate that 5% chance to miss anyway. LOL

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalrok_AthZim View Post
Fury.
More specifically, I monitor my damage buff with the combat attributes monitor. It's nice to see the numbers go up.

Also, if a scrapper and brute are solo there does seem to be a point where the buff from fury exceeds the scrapper base damage and crit.
Of course, maybe the higher base damage enhanced makes up for that. I don't know.



Edit:
I always see my fury generation get up to about 3/4 of the bar while solo, even when I'm only fighting solo enemies in succession, which is shown in my combat attributes window as 135% or more damage buff.
It's not hard with the recent change to fury. It's not even as hard on teams as it used to be.


Edit 2:
Also, my comment about the scrapper base damage only being "slightly higher" is based on looking at the powers they share at character creation with all archetype modifiers already calculated in. The damage for the scrapper version of any shared powers doesn't look that much higher. It's obviously higher, but does not look as high as 150% more.
That is why I don't think crits can beat fury being at a consistent 125%+ buff even in the math.
I have never taken out a calculator and worked it all out though as the feel of fury is enough for me.

My kinetic melee/energy aura brute made it through Praetorian enemy spawns in missions a lot faster than my kinetic melee/willpower scrapper did so fury definitely seems to be a much higher buff than some random crits.
Either that or maybe kinetic melee just isn't critting as much as it should or something.