Defense...maybe I just don't get it.
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2010-08-29 08:47 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Logging the results never helped my d20 rolls, though... Looking back at them, I think I'm under some kind of gypsy curse. By a gypsy who really likes numbers below 4.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
My recommendation: turn on chat logging and make sure its logging all tohit rolls and combat messages.
I don't know why, but whenever I ask someone to do this so I can see it for myself, the problem goes away. I think chat logging grants the player a +35% defense bonus or something. |
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i recall the stacked quicksands from earth thorn casters making me quit playing my sr out of teams for a while. the devs toned them down, they used to stack several times deep, and destroy defense.
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Originally Posted by Defenestrator
That defense debuff resist actually isn't all that good at level 22. It goes up as you level.
And, yes, I believe the Slag Golems have a -DEF component to their attacks. My reflexes scrapper, even in the 40s, would easily get laid out by -DEF effects (Guardians from the Devouring Earth and those horrible -DEF auras they lay down were the worst). Of course, the trade off is other foes were nothing but sword fodder. |
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That would explain why I had to focus on them or their spawn when I ran into them.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Guardians don't lay out -def auras, they lay out +tohit auras, which means your debuff resistance is completely worthless.
For bonus points, the +tohit aura is +200% tohit, so your defense is worthless, too. |
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Prior to the GDN and a bit after wards I suspect. The day before I5 launched, I was ran a mission of CoT as 35 /sr. Between the earth thorns wiping through me, and having to fight 9 or so bosses from one portal, (No drops, and no xp, yet all the risk. Yay) I was out of inspirations and died 5 times in that map alone. |
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
i recall the stacked quicksands from earth thorn casters making me quit playing my sr out of teams for a while. the devs toned them down, they used to stack several times deep, and destroy defense.
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I rage quit, deleted the game from my hard drive, and did the same to my fiance's computer. It was not until I7 that I even bothered to come back, and that was after reading that they went back and fixed some of what they did to /sr.
Since GR launched it seems like everything hits me. Last night I was hit 7 times in a row by a boss with a 48.something chance to hit me. I'd swear the game cheats except that I've gone through missions with barely a hit as well, it's only when I'm being hit over and over again that I start checking the combat logs.
It seems to me that the RNG is not as random as it should be, though. Because if I notice extremely bad luck I'll see it when I go over the combat logs with every mob in an entire mission. If I have extreme good luck (and I notice it), it will likewise be present in the entire mission.
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I like to call it a really hit or miss kind of proposition.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
That's the trade off with def. When you get hit, you get hit HARD. It's all or nothing (kind of).
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By default, I think the "Combat" log has ToHit numbers turned on. (If you see two rolls on the same attack, and one is a suspiciously neat one like 20.0%, that's the proc- chance of stun or whatever.)
When you're facedown, pondering your life choices, why not look at those numbers and see what actually happened?
Slag Golem bosses hit HARD, I'll say that. And the nature of +Def is very weird. Going from 25% to 37.5% means "Add half as much Defense and live twice as long." 37.5% to 43.75% means adding half as much as THAT and live twice as long again. Go from 45% to 90%, though, you live pretty much exactly as long. . .
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Oh...right...either way...they're bad news for defense builds. |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Guardians don't lay out -def auras, they lay out +tohit auras, which means your debuff resistance is completely worthless.
For bonus points, the +tohit aura is +200% tohit, so your defense is worthless, too. |
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I want to restate that Rage has a REALLY nasty defence debuff when it crashes that's really not evident unless you know to look for it specifically. It may or may not say so in the power description, but I know it's easy to miss in actual practice, especially if you're used to "perma Rage." Remember - perma Rage is not perma, it's just stacking the thing - you still suffer the crash, and if you've put it on Auto, WHEN you suffer the crash can be out of your control.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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By the way, its +100%, not +200%. Its always been that, at least as far as I can recall.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Guardians don't lay out -def auras, they lay out +tohit auras, which means your debuff resistance is completely worthless.
For bonus points, the +tohit aura is +200% tohit, so your defense is worthless, too. |
Still shreds defense either way most of the time, but theoretically speaking its possible to buff your defense with stacked bubbles or inspirations so high that you can overcome the buff. If it was +200% then it would be basically impossible to overcome the buff because everyone's defense hard caps wouldn't go high enough (a tanker could get to about 225% defense and cut critters down to 25% tohit after the buff).
Whoever designed those at the beginning of time wasn't fooling around.
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If Rage is stacked, then you don't suffer the defense debuff. You still get the -damage effect and the endurance loss, but your defense is not affected.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I want to restate that Rage has a REALLY nasty defence debuff when it crashes that's really not evident unless you know to look for it specifically. It may or may not say so in the power description, but I know it's easy to miss in actual practice, especially if you're used to "perma Rage." Remember - perma Rage is not perma, it's just stacking the thing - you still suffer the crash, and if you've put it on Auto, WHEN you suffer the crash can be out of your control.
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If I'm being serious, my inspiration tray will be 12 Lucks 2 BFs and 6 Enrages. Before I jump into a fight I'll use 4 Lucks, 1 BF and 2 Enrages then replenish as the first lot runs out.
With Demonic Aura up as well, I have 4 cycles of near-invincibility. Since my main is a Dom, Domination will be up by the second round if I am in danger of being mezzed.
I've never met *any* EB in the game that can overcome those tactics. Maybe 1 in 100 will get a really lucky hit in but beyond that, the fight is over. Even AVs only land 1 blow in (roughly) 10, maybe fewer.
This is why I get annoyed when I'm fighting an EB and some other squishy on the team gets taken out in 2 seconds. That's just plain laziness. 
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Seriously? How does that even work?
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
If Rage is stacked, then you don't suffer the defense debuff. You still get the -damage effect and the endurance loss, but your defense is not affected.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Out of interest, does Maneuvers stack with Tactical Training: Maneuvers?
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I assume by the same mechanism where reapplying a buff extends the life of that buff, as in reapplies it. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Seriously? How does that even work?
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The delayed debuff gets reset to happen in another 2 minutes because it's set not to self-stack for some bizarre reason.
There's therefore a pretty simple fix for it, remove the "Effect does not stack from same caster" flag from the -defense debuff.
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| Out of interest, does Maneuvers stack with Tactical Training: Maneuvers? |
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Yep, yep, and yep. |
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
I assume by the same mechanism where reapplying a buff extends the life of that buff, as in reapplies it.
The delayed debuff gets reset to happen in another 2 minutes because it's set not to self-stack for some bizarre reason. There's therefore a pretty simple fix for it, remove the "Effect does not stack from same caster" flag from the -defense debuff. |
Something must make the devs want to hold off and think about it, though, because that's been known for years now (I'm certain, because I PMed that to Castle when Rage was being tweaked back then).
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Apparently so, but I keep wondering what it could be, fan backlash notwithstanding. I mean, this essentially not only rewards but pretty much mandates perma-Rage, because if you don't perma it, you suffer a dangerous crash whereas if you do, you suffer a much lesser crash. Just seems like a really awkward way to balance it, if you ask me.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Yep, yep, and yep.
Something must make the devs want to hold off and think about it, though, because that's been known for years now (I'm certain, because I PMed that to Castle when Rage was being tweaked back then). |
But at least I know HOW it happens now.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I've never been a fan of defense sets. Mostly because anything remotely based on 'luck' generally means it will fail for me. But even I am kind of appalled at how quickly and easily I died in this situation.
Was doing a tip mission with my level 22 SS/SR brute Parity.
Now I have Focused Fighting and Focused Senses each 4 slotted with two 25 common defense IOs and a 20 common defense IO as well as a single 20 end reduction IO. That's 21.04% to melee and ranged.
Then I have both Agile and Dodge two slotted with a 25 and 20 common defense IO for 7.57% to melee and ranged.
I have evasion only slotted with a single end reducer so it is at its base of 13.88%.
Ok...I do a tip mission and engage a +1 slag golem boss and a minion. I hit rage and dispatch the minion first. Then I start in on the boss. And it is just hit after hit after hit on me like I have no defense at all. Ironically...his AoE attack missed. But every melee just landed before I could even get him down to 1/3 of his health.
Now I had a small and medium green and used them both over the course of this fight but he just kept hitting. I know I have lousy luck...but that was insane. Is that level of defense simply inadequate for fighting +1 bosses? Even my elec/elec never got taken out quite so fast by a slag golem boss at 22. I felt like wet tissue paper.
And that's not the first time I have gotten beat down due to insane hits time after time. What level of defense is even considered adequate in a situation like that?
I don't know why, but whenever I ask someone to do this so I can see it for myself, the problem goes away. I think chat logging grants the player a +35% defense bonus or something.
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