What are the worst villains you can think of?
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Agonus,
Posted on: 2010-08-24 14:19 in Comic and Hero-Villain Culture
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Both him and Batman both enjoy squirrel girl levels of plot armor and convenience. These characters really need smart writers to shine...unfortunately more often than not they just get alot of silly cop outs (which they both act like D-bags like they re somehow better than people with super powers like having them is a handicap.) Joker is so crazy it's a super power....batman time to plan is so uber it's a super power.....and having super powers would slow him down...bleh DC quit making both these characters mary sues.
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Originally Posted by GeneralKnowledge
Joker gains awesomeness for some of the demented **** he's done, i.e. The Killing Joke. He may not be the most powerful, but that doesn't seem to be what this is about. Joker is very enjoyable as a villain just about every time he shows up. Even when he died in Return of the Joker he REALLY got to Bats, twice.
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This is canon. Joker is 'super-sane'. It's speculated that he knows how the DC Universe works (he may or may not know it's a comic book, like Deadpool does), and he knows that as long as he is entertaining he can never die. Joker is the only comic book character whose personal goal is to make good comic book stories. Thus, he builds his own plot armor.
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Originally Posted by Lastjustice
Both him and Batman both enjoy squirrel girl levels of plot armor and convenience.
... Joker is so crazy it's a super power.... |
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For a series that's supposedly about a "guy with no superpowers" facing comparatively "realistic" villains, Batman sures features a lot of quasi-gods.|
Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
This is canon. Joker is 'super-sane'. It's speculated that he knows how the DC Universe works (he may or may not know it's a comic book, like Deadpool does), and he knows that as long as he is entertaining he can never die. Joker is the only comic book character whose personal goal is to make good comic book stories. Thus, he builds his own plot armor.
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Speaking of Batman, may I suggest Kite-Man as one of the worst villains in history?
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Well, when you look at it that way, he's an even crappier villain than I first thought.
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Originally Posted by RemusShepherd
This is canon. Joker is 'super-sane'. It's speculated that he knows how the DC Universe works (he may or may not know it's a comic book, like Deadpool does), and he knows that as long as he is entertaining he can never die. Joker is the only comic book character whose personal goal is to make good comic book stories. Thus, he builds his own plot armor.
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"They've got us surrounded again, the poor bastards." - General Creighton W. Abrams
It's interesting to see some people's responses. Especially seeing people name characters I intend to eventually have on a top villains list.
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I remember having a thing for her when I was younger. Yeah Spider-Man does have some pretty bad villains at times. But I guess it's kinda like Batman, when you have some of the most awesome villains of all in your rogues gallery you gotta have some pure crap. For every Riddler or Two Face you gotta have a Calender Man or Condament King.
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Originally Posted by ChrisMoses
The White Rabbit.
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Even some of Spider-Man's "better" villains are pretty lame, either through appearance or motivations. Kraven the Hunter is a hairy guy with a gun. Vulture is an old guy in a suit. Doc Ock is a smart guy with metal arms. Scorpion is a guy in a suit. Chameleon is "generic shape-shifter." The Green Goblin is a guy in a suit with an insanity plea.
They've all just been written fairly well throughout the years, or have the unmistakable power of nostalgia on their side.
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
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I have been a Joker fan since I read him in his first appearance. Mark Hamil's performance in Batman:The Animated Adventures really skyrocketed my love of the Clown. Heath Ledger's performance did nothing for me.
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Originally Posted by Comeuppance
The Joker. A non-metahuman clown wouldn't last 2 days in the DC Universe. I know everybody's been a Joker fan forever (forever being since TDK hit), but he's a really lame villain.
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The "things that are otherwise enjoyable" part disqualifies a lot of stupid villains, because they often make the whole plot seem stupid.
With that in mind, I'd nominate the Marquis de la Montalban from Sid Meier's Pirates!. In an otherwise enjoyable game, plotwise he provides moustache-twirling evil combined with a ridiculous reaction to being beaten, all while breaking the difficulty curve by being MUCH harder than any other swordfighting opponent and having a base that is annoying to find even after you get the map.
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So his villains should all be...robots? Women? Aliens? I'm not sure where them being guys is a problem. I certainly think villains being human is acceptable.|
Originally Posted by ChrisMoses
Even some of Spider-Man's "better" villains are pretty lame, either through appearance or motivations. Kraven the Hunter is a hairy guy with a gun. Vulture is an old guy in a suit. Doc Ock is a smart guy with metal arms. Scorpion is a guy in a suit. Chameleon is "generic shape-shifter." The Green Goblin is a guy in a suit with an insanity plea.
They've all just been written fairly well throughout the years, or have the unmistakable power of nostalgia on their side. |
Kraven rarely uses guns, and is superhuman. He's one of the ridiculously well trained types comics seem full of, as well as being augmented by jungle potions, most likely magical. Whatever that means; he's not normal.
Vulture is indeed an old guy in a suit, though his wings make him superhumanly strong while worn. I'll grant you that the vulture isn't the best supervillain in history.
Ock is just a smart guy with metal arms, but those metal arms are sometimes ridiculously powerful, and the threat posed by smart varies from writer to writer. The second spider-man film shows some great examples of what they can do, and it was pretty tame compared to things he's done in the books.
Scorpion's suit doesn't do anything, aside from his tail. Other than that he's a super powered genetically modified arachnid/man hybrid, just like Spider-Man himself.
Green Goblin has a variety of nasty tricks in his bag, weapons for every ocassion there and on his glider, and is also scientifically modified to be faster, stronger, and more agile than a normal human, as well as developing a healing factor over the years.
I guess what I'm saying, in short, is that every villain ever is "just a guy or girl with x". Batman is often considered the other contender for best rogues' gallery, and his are almost all "crazy guy with guns and henchmen." Execution is everything, as alluded to by your comment that they were well written. If these guys aren't up to snuff, what would you consider a good villain?
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Oh lord, so many horrid memories of getting completely destroyed by Jinpachi.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Jinpachi Mishima from Tekken 5.
Or, the shorter version; "Christ on a stick, you cheating [EXPLETIVE!!] Go to HELL! YOU [EXPLETIVE!!]" Because damn, did he cheat like hell. Teleportation, unblockable attacks, stupidly fast moving and fast attacks and more damage than Ogre from Tekken 3...even my brother, a die-hard Tekken fan, was reduced to grumbling. |
Azazel in Tekken 6 reeks of SNK boss syndrome as well, but at least I can beat him.....
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I've never been impressed with super-powered villains myself. I don't care what powers you have......I want to see what you do with that power.|
Originally Posted by Comeuppance
Well, when you look at it that way, he's an even crappier villain than I first thought.
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And when Joker does kill powered people, it's usually those who don't have any defense against his weapons. Superman is invulnerable, so Joker shouldn't be able to kill him.
Iron Cross just had superhuman strength and endurance. Joker shot him in the head.
It goes for Batman as well when in VS forums. I'll give the edge to an opponent who is invulnerable or has super speed.....but for people without these, super-powers does not equal "instant win". A powerless Storm was able to best Cyclops and Callisto in combat, and they both had their powers. If you have no special defenses, expect a punch from Batman to hurt. A lot.
EDIT: Do fans of comics do this when watching or reading fantasy material? I've seen mortals take on gods, dragons, abominations, and entire armies with nothing but mundane weapons sometimes. Magic wasn't always an option either. If a fantasy character can do this, why can't a Badass Normal comic book character?
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yeah, the original Lex was petty stupid. mad scientist with enough money to make battlesuits, giant robots, chemical weapons, etc, etc, etc, and still fought Superman and tried to rob banks most of the time. |
Originally Posted by QuietAmerican
I chose Lex Luthor.
Really, I hate him as a villian. Here we have the ultimate villian, and he faces off against who? A bald guy who likes beach front property? Ok, ok, even I like the movies and I know Lex of the comics is more interesting than that. Still, Darkseid, General Zod, Bizarro, Brainiac, all are better. The guy went evil mad at Superman because he lost his hair. Because he lost his hair? The Joker became horribly disfigured, while Lex lost his hair? Serious. I hate Lex Luthor. |
then comes the Post Crisis Lex and THAT S.O.B is evil. but hey, if you go by the movies and 40 year old comics, yea, he stinks.
as for craptacular villains? ill pick on some Star Wars stuff and go with General Grievous. evil cyborg who's badass because he coughs and OMG! 4 LIGHT@BR#S! DUUUUUDE!!!! yeah, frak that noise.
in comics, id have to dig up my old Wizard mags to remember all the old Mort's of the month. A lot of the gimmick villains were pretty bad. Ringer, Stilt Man, the Porcupine, just... just ow.
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Grievous was badass in the cartoon. He took on 5 Jedi at once and won. Now in the movie, yeah he was lame because Lucas flailed his arms yelling "NO ONE IS BETTER THEN VADER! WAH WAH WAH!" then proceeded to throw Grievous on the ground and **** all over him.
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Originally Posted by Veritech
as for craptacular villains? ill pick on some Star Wars stuff and go with General Grievous. evil cyborg who's badass because he coughs and OMG! 4 LIGHT@BR#S! DUUUUUDE!!!! yeah, frak that noise.
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Agreed, Clone Wars (and I mean the original, not the CGI crapfest) Grievous was awesome.
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Originally Posted by OzzieArcane
Grievous was badass in the cartoon. He took on 5 Jedi at once and won. Now in the movie, yeah he was lame because Lucas flailed his arms yelling "NO ONE IS BETTER THEN VADER! WAH WAH WAH!" then proceeded to throw Grievous on the ground and **** all over him.
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I find most of the animal-themed villains to be sort of lame.|
Originally Posted by SMerc
So his villains should all be...robots? Women? Aliens? I'm not sure where them being guys is a problem. I certainly think villains being human is acceptable.
Kraven rarely uses guns, and is superhuman. He's one of the ridiculously well trained types comics seem full of, as well as being augmented by jungle potions, most likely magical. Whatever that means; he's not normal. Vulture is indeed an old guy in a suit, though his wings make him superhumanly strong while worn. I'll grant you that the vulture isn't the best supervillain in history. Ock is just a smart guy with metal arms, but those metal arms are sometimes ridiculously powerful, and the threat posed by smart varies from writer to writer. The second spider-man film shows some great examples of what they can do, and it was pretty tame compared to things he's done in the books. Scorpion's suit doesn't do anything, aside from his tail. Other than that he's a super powered genetically modified arachnid/man hybrid, just like Spider-Man himself. Green Goblin has a variety of nasty tricks in his bag, weapons for every ocassion there and on his glider, and is also scientifically modified to be faster, stronger, and more agile than a normal human, as well as developing a healing factor over the years. I guess what I'm saying, in short, is that every villain ever is "just a guy or girl with x". Batman is often considered the other contender for best rogues' gallery, and his are almost all "crazy guy with guns and henchmen." Execution is everything, as alluded to by your comment that they were well written. If these guys aren't up to snuff, what would you consider a good villain? |
The exception is the Lizard. Dr. Curt Connors had great motivations from the very beginning, and a lot of hubris in his origin.
My point was that even Spider-Man's villains, who are considered to be pretty great, were originally lame-looking guys in rubber suits. It's only been through 50+ years of story development that they've become pinnacles.
For instance, originally Green Goblin was just a mobster in the comics. Only after many fights and many years did Norman Osborn become an interesting antagonist. I don't believe he originally had the Goblin Serum as well.
Rhino is a big dumb guy put into a suit. For years he was just a guy to show up for an issue or two and smash some things and then be taken down unceremoniously. However, there were two issues within the last year written by Joe Kelly that gave some huge development to Aleksei.
As for who I think has the best rogue's gallery, the X-Men's, particularly Magneto, the Sentinels and Mr. Sinister are pretty impressive.
My criteria is mostly based on the motivations. Because of that, I think it's hard to build tough villains early in a hero's origin. The hero needs time to establish himself and allow the villains to develop some personal reason against the hero to become a villain, or have a good cause (Magento) to begin with.
Thanks for eight fun years, Paragon.
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Amen brother
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Jinpachi Mishima from Tekken 5.
"Oh look, it's Jin's Grandad's dad who's now part demon and...uh...wants to kill us in the..tournament? Because...he...wait, what the hell are we on here, dude?" Or, the shorter version; "Christ on a stick, you cheating [EXPLETIVE!!] Go to HELL! YOU [EXPLETIVE!!]" Because damn, did he cheat like hell. Teleportation, unblockable attacks, stupidly fast moving and fast attacks and more damage than Ogre from Tekken 3...even my brother, a die-hard Tekken fan, was reduced to grumbling. And...what is it he's trying to do again? *shrug* Will come back if I think of any good game/film ones I know of... |
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For all intents and purposes, Grievous was a badass in the original cartoon because Tartakovsky and his crew were only given barebones information on the character. They had to fill in a lot of the blanks they weren't being given by Lucasfilm.|
Originally Posted by OzzieArcane
Grievous was badass in the cartoon. He took on 5 Jedi at once and won. Now in the movie, yeah he was lame because Lucas flailed his arms yelling "NO ONE IS BETTER THEN VADER! WAH WAH WAH!" then proceeded to throw Grievous on the ground and **** all over him.
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Grievous was screwed in the movie because the fight choreographer had no idea how to portray a fight scene with a 4 armed "man" using 4 swords at once. So Grievous lost his two extra arms at the beginning of the fight to make things managable.
And as far as Grievous's cough, the behind-the-scenes and official explanation are about as goofy as how bringing balance to the Force is supposed to work. Sadly, Windu crushing Grievous's chest at the end of the cartoon has nothing to do with it.
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I kind of... have to go with the villain in the newest Star Trek film from JJ Abrams. The story needs him, obviously, but he just sits there and looks brooding, then moves suddenly and stabs people or blows up Vulcan. Sure, there is a barebones motivation given to him, but he's just not given enough screen time to feel villainous. Want a good villain? You have to make him one: not just give him some quick mean things to do. I'd say the same for Sephiroth... I had none of the same loathing for him that I had for Kefka or Golbez from the sixth and fourth FF's, respectively.
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I hated Grievous in the cartoon.|
Originally Posted by OzzieArcane
Grievous was badass in the cartoon. He took on 5 Jedi at once and won. Now in the movie, yeah he was lame because Lucas flailed his arms yelling "NO ONE IS BETTER THEN VADER! WAH WAH WAH!" then proceeded to throw Grievous on the ground and **** all over him.
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So...uh...he's some kind of robot monkey thing? And he's fighting a handful of idiots who look like the Jedi Masters from the films? Yeah, uh, ok.
Anyone can look awesome when he's written to be perfect and his opponents are written to be imbeciles. Talk about a snoozefest.
By contrast, I appreciated what Grievous was in the movie, namely a Cushing/Lee era Dracula homage. He had the voice, the gait, the cloak, the mechanical bat for a face, complete with vampire fangs, and when shot (stabbed) through the heart, he was reduced to ash.
The only homage more obvious to me than Greivous = Dracula is Vader = Frankenstein.
Tower lab in an absurd thunderstorm? Check!
Using horrible science to give new life? Check!
Arms raised and stiff legged gait? Check!
It's just a thing Lucas does.
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Ummm, aren't the vast majority of Spidey's rogues gallery animal-themed?|
Originally Posted by ChrisMoses
Pretty much anyone animal-themed.
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
I kind of... have to go with the villain in the newest Star Trek film from JJ Abrams. The story needs him, obviously, but he just sits there and looks brooding, then moves suddenly and stabs people or blows up Vulcan. Sure, there is a barebones motivation given to him, but he's just not given enough screen time to feel villainous. Want a good villain? You have to make him one: not just give him some quick mean things to do.
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Those were the Jedi Masters from the films. That's why they didn't die. Grievous was equally as overpowered in the comics and it makes sense for him. Before becoming a cyborg, he was a warrior skilled in melee combat and yes the Jedi have light saber training but most of them are trained to battle people using blasters rather then other light sabers. Primarily because until recently they had believed the Sith extinct and had no reason to think they'd come up against a skilled light saber wielder.|
Originally Posted by JKedan
So...uh...he's some kind of robot monkey thing? And he's fighting a handful of idiots who look like the Jedi Masters from the films? Yeah, uh, ok.
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Heck Grievous actually has a decent backstory, he was almost killed and his family was killed, but the Trade Federation tricked him into thinking the Republic did it. But just like Aayla Secura and anyone else that was primarily popular in the EU, Lucas took a crap on him.
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I remember the time She Hulk tore his suit in half by pulling his legs apart from each other.
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Originally Posted by ObiWan
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I thought it was cost (yeah, I know that's absurd considering its GL) that kept them from having Greivous be as epic a fighter in the movie as he was in the cartoon.|
Originally Posted by Agonus
Grievous was screwed in the movie because the fight choreographer had no idea how to portray a fight scene with a 4 armed "man" using 4 swords at once. So Grievous lost his two extra arms at the beginning of the fight to make things managable.
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And yes, Nero was crap. I liked a lot of JJTrek, but Nero I did not. He just isn't very Romulan like.
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I chose Lex Luthor.
Really, I hate him as a villian. Here we have the ultimate villian, and he faces off against who? A bald guy who likes beach front property?
Ok, ok, even I like the movies and I know Lex of the comics is more interesting than that. Still, Darkseid, General Zod, Bizarro, Brainiac, all are better.
The guy went evil mad at Superman because he lost his hair. Because he lost his hair? The Joker became horribly disfigured, while Lex lost his hair?
Serious. I hate Lex Luthor.
Oh and Mr. Mxyzptlk, PLS OMG someone retcon Mr. Mxyzptlk out of creation, out of canon, and out of everyone's memory!