Kinetic Melee for a Scrapper, how does it look ?
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Again, thanks for the info everyone!|
Originally Posted by JaxomDad
ok assassin strike video is >>>here<<<.
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And yet again, why didn't they name it something that wasn't a copy of EM's move!?
Is no one else at all bummed by this? Is it because the attacks are both Energy/Smashing damage? Should we rename Electric Melee's move too!?
Come on people, say *something*
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Well it is a strike type attack... maybe Assassin's Blast too though... It doesn't really bother me too much though as I don't care about the names of attacks as much as i do the animations. They could go down the set and just name them Tier 1 Punch, Tier 2 Punch, etc. and as long as I looked sweet while punching people I will be happy.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Again, thanks for the info everyone!
And yet again, why didn't they name it something that wasn't a copy of EM's move!? Is no one else at all bummed by this? Is it because the attacks are both Energy/Smashing damage? Should we rename Electric Melee's move too!? Come on people, say *something* |
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I use the free version of fraps which is why it should say "Fraps.com" or something similar at the top. the free version works well enough but will only let you record up to 30 seconds of footage at a time so YMMV.|
Originally Posted by Ehina
Out of topic : I'm not Jaxom, but I think many players use Fraps. It's a very good tool, but it's not free. There is a free option that so far has worked really well by me and is extremely simple to use, it's Wegame. With a decent or average computer, you should not have any problem to run any of those, good luck
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I will look into the wegame app though, it might suit me better.
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Actually, with the average value of Power Siphon I measured, KM actually roughly ties Claws on endurance efficiency.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
So KM 'might' do better single target dmg with 'sufficiently high recharge' and 'good use of power siphon'? But a set like claws is faster, better on end, has better mitigation (single target -dam isn't as valuable as any aoe mitigation) and 'blows KM away on AOE' (which is generally more valuable in an mmo, outside of fringe gamers who solo av's all day...). Hard to believe so many people criticized this gem, lol.
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The only reason I'm hedging on single target is that I haven't done all the computations across enough recharge domains to be sure. If I had to bet money though, I would bet that at least Scrapper KM beats Scrapper Claws in ST with power siphon's average performance and without counting insta-recharge, which would help KM even more (by a little).
Claws isn't that much faster cast time wise, although it does have recharge discounts. At levels of recharge higher than SO slotted recharge, that becomes less of a problem for KM.
And once you say "AoE is always better except for fringe gamers" you've just placed yourself outside the realm I'm usually willing to discuss when it comes to set design. I won't usually argue the point, but I will generally reject it out of hand.
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I'll offer my $0.02 on KM based on some (admittedly limited) testing with a level bumped 41 KM/SD scrapper loaded with level 40 SO's and a level bumped 41 BS/SD scrapper also loaded with level 40 SO's. Both scrappers had identical secondary builds and power pools.
First the subjective on KM/SD. It really does feel slow, slow to attack, slow to kill and generally the animations (and the Nascar sounds) really bothered me. I felt like I'd make an attack, wait a while as my character conjured the ghost of Dale Ernhardt and finally decided to hit the mob then repeat the process.
Performance wise I was fairly underwhelmed, it was, of course, capable of soloing radio missions at base difficulty but it still seemed very slow. The animations are pretty, but they take all day and the damage seemed lacking. As a test I ran both scrappers through several radio missions facing the same type of mobs in similar missions. I ran Carnies, Council and Nemesis, all missions were the typical "kill boss x" and I ran them as kill-all.
In every test the BS/SD was considerably faster killing the mobs than the KM/SD. According to my stopwatch it usually took the BS/SD about 2/3 the time to clear each mission as the KM/SD with both facing 0/0 mobs, or base difficulty. Ramping things up to +2/4 it got much worse with the KM/SD taking twice as long on average as the BS/SD.
I ran each scrapper through 3 radio missions at 0/0; once vs Carnies, once vs Council and once vs Nemesis. I then ran 3 more radio missions with each against the same mobs set to +2/4.
Based on my experience I'd have to say that KM/SD is certainly playable, but it's far from optimal. It's capable of running +2/4 with rather a lot of care (both had roughly 24% def... the BS/SD pushed the Melee to ~43% with Parry, over the soft cap with it stacked) but KM really was outperformed by Broadsword.
As things stand right now I have no intention of rolling a KM on live, if the set gets some changes I may change my mind later. Unfortunately in it's current state it doesn't interest me.
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Anyone who says Claws has better mitigation than KM is either lying or monumentally ignorant.
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Anyone that would claim single target -dam is better than the mitigation claws has is obviously ignorant of shockwave. Granted there are some cases were stacking single target -dmg is better than aoe knockback, but in most cases, aoe mitigation trumps single target mitigation. And despite some posters claims, it doesn't require a masters degree to master shockwave and use it effectively.
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In terms of endurance, I've NEVER heard anyone complain about claws. I've read many posts of testers complaining about KM's endurance useage.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Actually, with the average value of Power Siphon I measured, KM actually roughly ties Claws on endurance efficiency.
The only reason I'm hedging on single target is that I haven't done all the computations across enough recharge domains to be sure. If I had to bet money though, I would bet that at least Scrapper KM beats Scrapper Claws in ST with power siphon's average performance and without counting insta-recharge, which would help KM even more (by a little). Claws isn't that much faster cast time wise, although it does have recharge discounts. At levels of recharge higher than SO slotted recharge, that becomes less of a problem for KM. |
In terms of single target damage, if you agree that claws 'blows away' KM in aoe ability, shouldn't KM be clearly superior in single target ability?
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| And once you say "AoE is always better except for fringe gamers" you've just placed yourself outside the realm I'm usually willing to discuss when it comes to set design. I won't usually argue the point, but I will generally reject it out of hand. |
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Originally Posted by BrandX
It must have something going for it, or else, by the way your message looks, everyone would be claws.
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You have broken the logic barrier. I'm comparing claws to KM, not to every other set in the game. There are many other scrapper primaries that are in the same range as claws in terms of overall performance, KM is not one of them, imo.
Regardless, KM will get lots of play early on due to the fact its a new powerset and it looks nice. Some will play it later on for the same reasons. But that does not speak to the sets performance, though a sharp drop-off in usage after release certainly would.
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You should try EM on a calculator, I hear its FABULOUS, lol.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I'll offer my $0.02 on KM based on some (admittedly limited) testing with a level bumped 41 KM/SD scrapper loaded with level 40 SO's and a level bumped 41 BS/SD scrapper also loaded with level 40 SO's. Both scrappers had identical secondary builds and power pools.
First the subjective on KM/SD. It really does feel slow, slow to attack, slow to kill and generally the animations (and the Nascar sounds) really bothered me. I felt like I'd make an attack, wait a while as my character conjured the ghost of Dale Ernhardt and finally decided to hit the mob then repeat the process. Performance wise I was fairly underwhelmed, it was, of course, capable of soloing radio missions at base difficulty but it still seemed very slow. The animations are pretty, but they take all day and the damage seemed lacking. As a test I ran both scrappers through several radio missions facing the same type of mobs in similar missions. I ran Carnies, Council and Nemesis, all missions were the typical "kill boss x" and I ran them as kill-all. In every test the BS/SD was considerably faster killing the mobs than the KM/SD. According to my stopwatch it usually took the BS/SD about 2/3 the time to clear each mission as the KM/SD with both facing 0/0 mobs, or base difficulty. Ramping things up to +2/4 it got much worse with the KM/SD taking twice as long on average as the BS/SD. I ran each scrapper through 3 radio missions at 0/0; once vs Carnies, once vs Council and once vs Nemesis. I then ran 3 more radio missions with each against the same mobs set to +2/4. Based on my experience I'd have to say that KM/SD is certainly playable, but it's far from optimal. It's capable of running +2/4 with rather a lot of care (both had roughly 24% def... the BS/SD pushed the Melee to ~43% with Parry, over the soft cap with it stacked) but KM really was outperformed by Broadsword. As things stand right now I have no intention of rolling a KM on live, if the set gets some changes I may change my mind later. Unfortunately in it's current state it doesn't interest me. |
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LOL! You just made my day.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
You should try EM on a calculator, I hear its FABULOUS, lol.
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Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I've also read that its almost impossible to stack Power Siphon damage buffs more than twice.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
In terms of endurance, I've NEVER heard anyone complain about claws. I've read many posts of testers complaining about KM's endurance useage.
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But it requires a PhD to use RT? What about a PBAoE power with a hefty KD chance? How about a single target power with a good stun chance?|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Anyone that would claim single target -dam is better than the mitigation claws has is obviously ignorant of shockwave. Granted there are some cases were stacking single target -dmg is better than aoe knockback, but in most cases, aoe mitigation trumps single target mitigation. And despite some posters claims, it doesn't require a masters degree to master shockwave and use it effectively.
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I am leaning towards monumentally ignorant, although you may actually know what KM can do and are just lying.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I was using claws as an example. |
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
You have broken the logic barrier. I'm comparing claws to KM, not to every other set in the game. There are many other scrapper primaries that are in the same range as claws in terms of overall performance, KM is not one of them, imo.
Regardless, KM will get lots of play early on due to the fact its a new powerset and it looks nice. Some will play it later on for the same reasons. But that does not speak to the sets performance, though a sharp drop-off in usage after release certainly would. |
I think the complaints coming about with KM are the same ones coming about with Dual Pistols.
That the set isn't THE BEST OF THE BEST!
The numbers on Dual Pistols were run, and the set didn't fall at the bottom of the list, infact it came pretty much in the middle.
And yet, it's OMG a terrible set and yet, people were playing the other bottom half of the list before Dual Pistols came along, over the top half of the list.
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I'm all about trying this powerset but I cannot make up my mind on the Secondary.
Beta testers, was there a Secondary that stood out?
You know, just to throw this out there - I had a whole mess of crepes this morning. They're just like pancakes, maybe even better.
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When balancing sets, it is always a dichotomy..........the best and the worst. Anything not the best is automatically the worst.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I was using claws as an example.
I think the complaints coming about with KM are the same ones coming about with Dual Pistols. That the set isn't THE BEST OF THE BEST! The numbers on Dual Pistols were run, and the set didn't fall at the bottom of the list, infact it came pretty much in the middle. And yet, it's OMG a terrible set and yet, people were playing the other bottom half of the list before Dual Pistols came along, over the top half of the list. |
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LOL, so me saying that claws with shockwave and focus offers better mitigation than KM with its smaller cone aoe kb (and only a chance of kb) and its single target chance for stun equates to me being either 'monumentally ignorant' or 'lying'? That's just ridiculous and ironic all at once.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
But it requires a PhD to use RT? What about a PBAoE power with a hefty KD chance? How about a single target power with a good stun chance?
I am leaning towards monumentally ignorant, although you may actually know what KM can do and are just lying. |
Shockwave is indisputably better mitigation that km's aoe mitigation - wider cone and better aoe kb, and it recharges in 12 s without any rech enh. With decent recharge you can keep entire mobs almost permanently, and more importantly, consistently, on their backs. So without question claws has better aoe mitigation capabilities.
KB has the advantage in single target mitigation - claws has a single target kd which is negated by km's single target stun (though I would argue claws st kd is a bit better than the chance for stun...), but km pulls ahead with its -dam.
Having said that, imo, aoe mitigation is usually more valuable than single target mitigation, because in this game, in most cases, you are fighting multiple opponents, and very rarely are fighting one hard target. That is why claws has superior overall mitigation imo. If you disagree, thats fine, but to claim my argument is ignorant or deceitful is completely assinine.
The most efficient and successful way to play this game is obviously to get somebody else to PL you. If you aren't doing that then you suck. It really doesn't matter what sets you're playing personally, since none of them will level alone or on regular(gimp) teams as fast as someone being PL'd by an expert... or better yet a group of experts. A team of seven fire/kin controllers (or whatever self sufficient AoE monster flavor you like) IO'd to the gills + whatever character you're leveling up is the only real way to play this game. Otherwise your fun is the wrong fun.
Being able to put out massive AoE damage quickly and survive is the only metric that matters. If you insist on playing single target oriented sets (you must be a roleplayer, otherwise, why?) then the ONLY thing you should be concerned about when picking a powerset is how fast you can take down single targets. Efficiency is the only thing that matters in this game, period.
I am glad of course that everyone doesn't play the right way. It really separates the noobs from the elites. If you don't have someone to look down on then what's the point, really.
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Originally Posted by BrandX
I was using claws as an example.
I think the complaints coming about with KM are the same ones coming about with Dual Pistols. That the set isn't THE BEST OF THE BEST! The numbers on Dual Pistols were run, and the set didn't fall at the bottom of the list, infact it came pretty much in the middle. And yet, it's OMG a terrible set and yet, people were playing the other bottom half of the list before Dual Pistols came along, over the top half of the list. |
That's not the point, I'm not arguing that the set needs to be the 'best of the best'. But if it's not fun to play and is mediocre to poor at everything, then it's a lame set.
As mediocre as dual pistols is/was, at least it's a fun set to play and has lots of aoe, and on top of that, has a cool 'gimmick' that adds to the fun factor with changing ammo. Despite all that, I still see FAR less people playing dual pistols nowadays, I expect we'll see a similar dropoff with KM if it's as gimpy as it seems to be.
I'd love to be proven wrong on my intitial feelings about KM, because I was really looking forward to a new melee set, but I'm not overly optimistic. Time will tell I guess.
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While I'm not sure about this drop off of Dual Pistol users, I would expect to wait and see how GR goes (as some people still dont have dual pistols access) and in the end, I think more people want a Dual Pistols/Armor toon, over what is currently available.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
That's not the point, I'm not arguing that the set needs to be the 'best of the best'. But if it's not fun to play and is mediocre to poor at everything, then it's a lame set.
As mediocre as dual pistols is/was, at least it's a fun set to play and has lots of aoe, and on top of that, has a cool 'gimmick' that adds to the fun factor with changing ammo. Despite all that, I still see FAR less people playing dual pistols nowadays, I expect we'll see a similar dropoff with KM if it's as gimpy as it seems to be. I'd love to be proven wrong on my intitial feelings about KM, because I was really looking forward to a new melee set, but I'm not overly optimistic. Time will tell I guess. |
At least, I know, that what I really want out of a Dual Pistols. Like I said before (in other threads), that's the hero I envisioned making when I bought the game over 5 years ago.
I'm not to sure it's all about whether the set is top tier or not. Though, I do think people want every new set to be the best of the list.
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You have convinced me you are not lying. Ignorant it is. Claws is a very good set. KM's mitigation is higher and not by a margin that is hard to see.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
LOL, so me saying that claws with shockwave and focus offers better mitigation than KM with its smaller cone aoe kb (and only a chance of kb) and its single target chance for stun equates to me being either 'monumentally ignorant' or 'lying'?
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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nitpick- didn't DP only come out in the middle using fire rounds? i thought that with anything else it was pretty low on the list?
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Originally Posted by BrandX
The numbers on Dual Pistols were run, and the set didn't fall at the bottom of the list, infact it came pretty much in the middle. . |
Positron's i13 letter: We are trying to make PvP more accessible to new players, while giving experienced PvP'ers the advantage that comes with formulating tactics around the new systems we're putting in place. PvP from now on will be on our priority list. If something isn't working out, we'll be in there tweaking it and making it work, for the entire future of the product, not just Issue 13.
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It came out middle of the road using either standard rounds (for the -res from Piercing Rounds) or incendiary rounds (which came out slightly ahead). The time it was really behind was when using either Chem Ammo (with the ridiculously awesome secondary effect of awesomeness; so it makes sense for it to be weaker imo) or Cryo Ammo (and there isn't even a point to using Cryo Ammo as far as I'm concerned). The big problem as I see it with the numbers I provided for that comparison is that I didn't factor in Aim (or the lack thereof), which, while it wouldn't do much to ST damage over time, it's going to have a massive effect on survivability (thanks to lacking frontloading capability). I'm still at the vanguard of the movement to give the [Swap Ammo] shell power Aim functionality.|
Originally Posted by PC_guy
nitpick- didn't DP only come out in the middle using fire rounds? i thought that with anything else it was pretty low on the list?
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KM isn't close to the same as DP, though. Power Siphon might cut off frontloading capability, but that's not going to do much considering just how much +dam you'll generate and that it's not on any "squishy" ATs that need to kill things quickly just to survive. KM has nice-to-excellent DPAs for everything but Burst (which, seriously, needs some love as I see it because "ranged attack" isn't enough functionality as I see it to make up for that horrible animation time), a very nice secondary effect, and middle of the road AoE capability. At worst, KM could be described as middle of the road. Dual Pistols could be said to be mediocre and having to work to stay there.
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While Umbral replied already, I have to ask, would it matter? Fire rounds would still mean, middle of the pack.
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Originally Posted by PC_guy
nitpick- didn't DP only come out in the middle using fire rounds? i thought that with anything else it was pretty low on the list?
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Not everyone is going to leverage Shockwave as well as the top tier claw users.
And I can't help but think for the fringe player, KM will be seen as a great set. With hearing it's a really good DPS set, combined with the -DMG effect stacking with a well built secondary, I think those fringe players would enjoy it.
I also think it's going to turn out to be a popular set for the masses.
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