Star Wars help.....


Agonus

 

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Originally Posted by Dark One View Post
Wow...so the death of the Emperor completely eliminated any person's need for greed and power. What a fantastic world you live in.

And you honestly think that because you cut off one head of the massive military apparatus that is the Empire, the rest will just lay down their arms and give up their worlds?

Naive, you have a new poster girl.
In this case, she's right. At the end of Star Wars, according to Lucas, Good triumphs over Evil and everyone lives happily ever after. There isn't anything after Jedi. The Dark Side is gone, the Empire is gone, Anakin is redeemed and that's it. No Solo/Organa brats, Luke doesn't get married, Boba Fett is dead in the Sarlacc, and everything is better than it was before.

End of Story, that's a wrap, last page of the storybook.

Sure, there's a lot of officially licensed and published 'What If...?' fan fiction out there, most of it worse than what you'd find even in a cesspit like Fanfiction.net, but as far as Lucas is concerned, none of it happens. Now, clearly he thinks there are some stories to tell before the end of Jedi, which is why we get the prequels, The Clone Wars animated series, and the potential live action series, but that's about as far as it goes.


 

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In this case, she's right. At the end of Star Wars, according to Lucas, Good triumphs over Evil and everyone lives happily ever after. There isn't anything after Jedi. The Dark Side is gone, the Empire is gone, Anakin is redeemed and that's it. No Solo/Organa brats, Luke doesn't get married, Boba Fett is dead in the Sarlacc, and everything is better than it was before.
No, she's not. I'm not even talking about the novelizations and whatnot, but rather extrapolating that universe to logical ends. You cannot simply erase Evil by the death of Palpatine, nor can you erase the Empire with his death. At best you have an anarchy state since there is no one/thing in power. Saying that it's 'better than it was' is while technically true, not the whole story.

If we accept that that universe has a backstory of at least 1000 generations, then we also have to accept other things. As well as accepting references to stories outside the movies themselves (Han's speech about the bounty hunter on Ord Mantell for instance) we have to accept that those stories exist.

Good can triumph over that particular Evil, but when Good rests on its laurels, Evil gathers power.

As far as Lucas goes...well, to me, he lost credibility when he has a 14 year old (elected Queen no less) falling in love with a 9 year old.



 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Anakin's personal journey is matched by the rise and fall of the Empire, with the death of Palpatine wiping out the Sith and bringing balance to the Force - Anakin's death destroys the Sith and the Empire.
So wiping out the Sith, therefore leaving only one philosophy/aspect/whatever of the Force creates balance? If you're only going by the movies then you only have the Jedi interpretation of the Force left at the end, with nothing to balance it out.


Arc 180901: Flight of the Dreadnought

 

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Originally Posted by Sevenpenny View Post
Hoping that someone here will be able to help me figure something out....... I think that Luke Skywalker went over to the dark side for a bit in a novel series or was it a comic book series? What I would like to know is what are the titles of the books and are they still available?

At any rate thank you in advance for any help you can share with me.
Dark Empire: it's revealed that he Emperor transfers into young clones of himself and Luke goes Darkside to learn his secrets and destroy him and also to learn more of why his father went darkside

Dark Empire 2: still emotionally scarred from his darkside time, Luke must still face the Emperor who is running out of clones. Also Anakin Solo is born.

Empire's End: final battle with the Emperor.

Dark Empire occurs approximately 6 years after ROTJ and 1 year after Tim Zahn's excellent Thrawn Trilogy. After Dark Empire would come the Jedi Academy Trilogy of novels where Luke thinks he has recovered from his darkside ways and begins to train new Jedi. Also he unilaterally declares himself to be a Jedi Master after surviving the war with the reborn Emperor.

The Novel "I, Jedi" would come out years later but it fits into this trilogy and shows Corran Horn of Rogue Squadron training at the time to be a Jedi and also we get his viewpoint and Mara Jade's viewpoint on just how Luke's darkside time really screwed up his head.

The Hand of Thrawn duology of novels would finally have Luke wake up and realize a few things about the Force, his rather cavalier at times usage of his powers and how he is actually going darkside again due to all his frequent usage of the Force vs. listening to the Force for guidance. Mara also helps him screw his head back on straight, she dismisses the idea that those clones were really the Emperor (slight retcon-dismissal of Dark Empire), and she and Luke fall in love and agree to marry.

However a main flaw of all the Star Wars novels for years was the decree of Lucas that no author shall directly reference the prequel era or Luke's mother. Hence we got things like "Jedi Ghosts can only manifest for a few years then fade away forever", thus depriving Luke of any further guidance from Obi_Wan, and Anakin's ghost only appeared once after ROTJ and that was to Leia only in the Truce at Bakura.

Also some of the novels made hints and references to Boba Fett's history which had to be revised a bit after it's revealed Boba himself is a clone of his dear old daddy


 

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Originally Posted by Dark One View Post
Wow...so the death of the Emperor completely eliminated any person's need for greed and power. What a fantastic world you live in.

And you honestly think that because you cut off one head of the massive military apparatus that is the Empire, the rest will just lay down their arms and give up their worlds?

Naive, you have a new poster girl.
Well the end of Robot Chicken Star Wars 2 makes a nice joke about how the ships don't fight back.

"We have tens of thousands of ships, we have tremendous firepower, we have countless worlds at our disposal!"

"No you see they blew up the second Death Star AND killed the Emperor! They had to both!"

"You mean we can't fight back?"

"No, sorry. This is the end of the Empire!"

However the novels made a point of showing that the Imperial Forces were out there, but lacked leadership for sometime until Thrawn returned. Thrawn's demise threw it all back into anarchy. Admiral Daala wipes out the warlords but her leadership was brief (Darksaber novel) and Admiral Pellaeon; the pupil of Thrawn takes over.


 

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Originally Posted by Dark One View Post
Do you deny that the Dark Side still exists once the Emperor is defeated?

Do you also honestly believe that the Emperor's death destroyed the Empire for once and all?
His death basically cut off the head of the Empire. The loss of Vader and the super destroyer Executor took away some of their best soldiers. But the Imperial Forces were still out there.

As to bringing balance to the Force....well balance is a delicate thing, so easily disrupted. Yes, Anakin destroys the Emperor and Luke and Leia are the last of the Jedi, or first of the new depending on your point of view.

But if there are any records anywhere of Sith teachings, then yes the Sith can return.


 

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However the novels made a point of showing that the Imperial Forces were out there, but lacked leadership for sometime until Thrawn returned. Thrawn's demise threw it all back into anarchy. Admiral Daala wipes out the warlords but her leadership was brief (Darksaber novel) and Admiral Pellaeon; the pupil of Thrawn takes over.
Well, if you go by the Legacy comics, the Empire is still present and kicking about 130 years post-RotJ, iirc. The Republic is all but dead.

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His death basically cut off the head of the Empire. The loss of Vader and the super destroyer Executor took away some of their best soldiers. But the Imperial Forces were still out there.
The Executor was but one of many SSDs. I can find reference to at least 10 others in the expanded lit. The Empire also had 25,000, at least, regular Imp-Star Deuces. Sure, it had a lot of the brightest soldiers on it, but by no means all.

Losing the Emperor doesn't take into account the various Warlords and whatnot running around. These guys are, mostly, dyed in the wool Imperial servants. They won't believe the Emperor is dead and would crack down on propoganda stating as such. Which is kinda why those scenes tacked on to the end of RotJ don't make sense. The news of the Emperor's death spreading that quickly and not being immediately stamped out by Imperial security forces?



 

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Originally Posted by Dark One View Post
No, she's not. I'm not even talking about the novelizations and whatnot, but rather extrapolating that universe to logical ends. You cannot simply erase Evil by the death of Palpatine, nor can you erase the Empire with his death. At best you have an anarchy state since there is no one/thing in power. Saying that it's 'better than it was' is while technically true, not the whole story.

If we accept that that universe has a backstory of at least 1000 generations, then we also have to accept other things. As well as accepting references to stories outside the movies themselves (Han's speech about the bounty hunter on Ord Mantell for instance) we have to accept that those stories exist.

Good can triumph over that particular Evil, but when Good rests on its laurels, Evil gathers power.

As far as Lucas goes...well, to me, he lost credibility when he has a 14 year old (elected Queen no less) falling in love with a 9 year old.
Ahh. I see.

"This guy owns an awesome sandbox, and I love it, but I don't have to listen to his rules because I don't like them."

Got it.

Feel free to extrapolate all the 'What If...'s you like, and try to inject realism into a space fantasy about wizards with lightswords in a galaxy far, far away. Plenty of authors have, with decreasing degrees of quality. However, at the end of the day, the movies and Lucas' statements define truth for the franchise.

When the credits roll in Return of the Jedi, the Empire is finished, the Dark Side is destroyed, and everyone lives happily ever after. The End.

You don't have to like it, but that's the way it is.

None of which should prevent you from enjoying the post RotJ novels. Lots of folks do. I don't, personally, for the most part, but these days that just saves me money on books I don't have to read.

Fortunately, I can watch the films, get to the end of RotJ, and turn off the film knowing the story is finished.


 

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Originally Posted by JKedan View Post
Ahh. I see.

"This guy owns an awesome sandbox, and I love it, but I don't have to listen to his rules because I don't like them."

Got it.
Except the one movie that was the top, namely Empire, didn't have Lucas' ham-handed attempts at directing and/or writing in it (though he did have a hand in the writing, there were others there to reign him in). The man may have made a damn fine universe, but he's not all that adept at actually writing stories in it, IMO.

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Feel free to extrapolate all the 'What If...'s you like, and try to inject realism into a space fantasy about wizards with lightswords in a galaxy far, far away. Plenty of authors have, with decreasing degrees of quality. However, at the end of the day, the movies and Lucas' statements define truth for the franchise.

When the credits roll in Return of the Jedi, the Empire is finished, the Dark Side is destroyed, and everyone lives happily ever after. The End.

You don't have to like it, but that's the way it is.
Except that ending doesn't make sense. Oh, the Dark Side is destroyed...wait what? The Dark Side is what happens when people choose to use that power for their own greed and self-aggrandizment. Saying that they "destroyed the Dark Side" doesn't make a lick of sense in the context of what the Dark Side is. Saying that they destroyed is akin to saying they expunged all the evils of mankind from the universe.

Fear, violence, hate, of the Dark Side these things are.

They destroyed one user, true. But they sure as hell didn't destroy the concept.

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None of which should prevent you from enjoying the post RotJ novels. Lots of folks do. I don't, personally, for the most part, but these days that just saves me money on books I don't have to read.

Fortunately, I can watch the films, get to the end of RotJ, and turn off the film knowing the story is finished.
It's not about the post-RotJ novels or the comics or the rest of the EU. It's about trying to make sense of a universe that has at least 20,000 years of history that has been alluded to, as well as events that are referenced in the movies.



 

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Originally Posted by Hestis View Post
So wiping out the Sith, therefore leaving only one philosophy/aspect/whatever of the Force creates balance? If you're only going by the movies then you only have the Jedi interpretation of the Force left at the end, with nothing to balance it out.
The movies are all that matters.

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"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: my universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
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"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books. But there's three worlds: There's my world that I made up, there's the licensing world that's the books, the comics, all that kind of stuff, the games, which is their world, and then there's the fans' world, which is also very rich in imagination, but they don't always mesh. All I'm in charge of is my world. I can't be in charge of those other people's world, because I can't keep up with it."
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"I've left pretty explicit instructions for there not to be any more features. There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything. And now there have been novels about the events after Episode VI, which isn't at all what I would have done with it. The Star Wars story is really the tragedy of Darth Vader. That is the story. Once Vader dies, he doesn't come back to life, the Emperor doesn't get cloned and Luke doesn't get married..."


Thank the Maker


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Thank the Maker
Oh gee, I guess because the ever-infalliable Lucas says it is so, it must be, huh?

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There will definitely be no Episodes VII-IX. That's because there isn't any story. I mean, I never thought of anything.


Sweet tapdancing monkies. Because he's never thought of anything, that means there's no story?



 

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There are five basic classifications of Canon that Lucasfilm uses. G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon. Each overrides the ones after it.

G-canon is whatever George says, and the latest versions of the movies and their related versions in other media. Interestingly, George considers the lightside ending of the Force Unleashed video game to be the "official" linking story between the prequels and the original trilogy. So that would possibly make it, unlike any previous non-movie media, G-canon.

T-canon is "new", and is basically the Clone Wars TV series/movie and the upcoming live action TV series.

C-canon is mostly the Expanded Universe.

S-canon is mostly the video games - except Force Unleashed, apparently.

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories, game statistics, etc. The Christmas Special. Threepio appearing on a game show. That sort of thing. Also anything that was Canon previously but has since been contradicted by a higher level of Canon goes here.


-np

used to work on Star Wars products, still has the official Star Wars licensing bible


I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.

Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered

 

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Originally Posted by Dark One View Post
Oh gee, I guess because the ever-infalliable Lucas says it is so, it must be, huh?
Yup - it's like adding non-Tolkien stuff to the history of Middle-earth.

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Sweet tapdancing monkies. Because he's never thought of anything, that means there's no story?
No official story, no - just various levels of fanfiction


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

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Originally Posted by JKedan View Post
Fortunately, I can watch the films, get to the end of RotJ, and turn off the film knowing the story is finished.
and that's great. you don't like the EU stuff, you and GG feel the movies are the end-all be-all to SW. that's great. so you've got not one thing relevant to contribute to a discussion about the expanded universe beyond "i don't accept it, because George doesn't accept it." so you aren't any help here to someone asking about EU material, or those of us who like the stuff.


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Yup - it's like adding non-Tolkien stuff to the history of Middle-earth.
Not quite. That argument would have more merit if there were an EU of the LotR, but there's not, ttbomk. And by 'non-Tolkien' you must mean only the books right, no movies involved? Since the books are dry as hell, but the movies are quite good.

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No official story, no - just various levels of fanfiction
Sorry, but I really sincerly doubt that there won't be more movies once George is gone. If the heirs want to, they could just as easily remake all six movies and continue on the franchise.



 

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I'm actually curious as to GG's opinion of Force Unleashed, since George had a direct hand in it and he considers it as canon as the movies.



-np


I see myself as witty, urbane, highly talented, hugely successful with a keen sense of style. Plus of course my own special brand of modesty.

Virtue: Automatic Lenin | The Pink Guy | Superpowered | Guardia | Guardia Prime | Ultrapowered

 

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Originally Posted by NinjaPirate View Post
I'm actually curious as to GG's opinion of Force Unleashed, since George had a direct hand in it and he considers it as canon as the movies.



-np
I dont know about her but i loved the foce unleashed and cant wait for the second one. I thought the story was absolutely great.

I was just watching the trailer the other day for the new one thinking why dont they make a new movie that looks like this? The quality of Lucas Arts cinematic trailers is just outstanding i would love to see the thrawn trilogy done in CGI that looked that good.


 

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I thought the Gman had said that the male lightside ending of KoTOR was canon.


 

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Originally Posted by QuiJon View Post
I dont know about her but i loved the foce unleashed and cant wait for the second one. I thought the story was absolutely great.

I was just watching the trailer the other day for the new one thinking why dont they make a new movie that looks like this? The quality of Lucas Arts cinematic trailers is just outstanding i would love to see the thrawn trilogy done in CGI that looked that good.
it would look pretty impressive done in that style. going by the same track, id kill to see the Rogue Squadron series done the same way.


 

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Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
The movies are all that matters.
Which doesn't even remotely answer my question. You claim that balance is restored to the force by the death of the Emperor and Vader, and the wiping out of the Sith. So, at the end of the movies, you are left with only one side's view/philosophy of the Force, the Jedi, in the form of Luke. So explain to me how having only one viewpoint, with no opposition or counterpoint on something creates balance. That would be like saying if you were the only one having this discussion there would be a balanced viewpoint on whether or not the EU was valid.


Arc 180901: Flight of the Dreadnought

 

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Originally Posted by Dark One View Post
Except the one movie that was the top, namely Empire, didn't have Lucas' ham-handed attempts at directing and/or writing in it (though he did have a hand in the writing, there were others there to reign him in). The man may have made a damn fine universe, but he's not all that adept at actually writing stories in it, IMO.
Irrelevant. It's his universe. He created it and is whole and sole owner. His word is the Fundamental Truth, as far as the Star Wars IP is concerned.

If he woke up tomorrow and decided to read all the Star Wars books and came to the conclusion "Wow, this is all garbage, pull all future releases and have this expunged" that would be that. Everything would be N-canon, end of discussion.

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Originally Posted by Dark One View Post
Except that ending doesn't make sense. Oh, the Dark Side is destroyed...wait what? The Dark Side is what happens when people choose to use that power for their own greed and self-aggrandizment. Saying that they "destroyed the Dark Side" doesn't make a lick of sense in the context of what the Dark Side is. Saying that they destroyed is akin to saying they expunged all the evils of mankind from the universe.

Fear, violence, hate, of the Dark Side these things are.

They destroyed one user, true. But they sure as hell didn't destroy the concept.
Makes perfect sense in the realm of a fairy tale in space. This isn't complicated. It is, literally, a "...and they all lived happily ever after" ending. No need to go beyond that.

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Originally Posted by Dark One View Post
It's not about the post-RotJ novels or the comics or the rest of the EU. It's about trying to make sense of a universe that has at least 20,000 years of history that has been alluded to, as well as events that are referenced in the movies.
What sense needs to be made? You're just overthinking it.

Did you watch/read Sleeping Beauty and think "But how could the regional economy recover from the overnight loss of trade that an entire, and obviously prosperous, kingdom provided? What were the social and political ramifications of that kingdom's sudden disappearance, and then reappearance after 100 years? How did the people of that kingdom deal with being living anachronisms when they woke up?" I didn't, because they don't matter. In the family friendly version, the princess and her kingdom are saved, true love triumphs, and everything works out in the end.

Star Wars is exactly the same. It is a contained story with a clear beginning, middle, and end. There are a few tidbits thrown out to give it a passing semblance of history before the movies, but nothing more than is absolutely necessary, and never dwelled upon.


 

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Originally Posted by Hestis View Post
Which doesn't even remotely answer my question. You claim that balance is restored to the force by the death of the Emperor and Vader, and the wiping out of the Sith. So, at the end of the movies, you are left with only one side's view/philosophy of the Force, the Jedi, in the form of Luke. So explain to me how having only one viewpoint, with no opposition or counterpoint on something creates balance. That would be like saying if you were the only one having this discussion there would be a balanced viewpoint on whether or not the EU was valid.

My take on it is that the Force was balanced at the beginning of the Original Trilogy, not at the end. As far as we know, there was Vader and the Emperor on the Dark Side and Obi-Wan and Yoda on the Light Side, and that was it. Anakin/Vader balanced the Force at 2 vs. 2. Just because his whiny kid came along and unblanced everything again by the end of RotJ, that doesn't invalidate Anakin fulfilling the prophecy.

The bigger problem I have with all this is the idiot Jedi in the Prequels...

"Let's see, Qui-Gon, there are 10,000 of us and roughly 0 Sith. You say this little kid is destined to bring balance to the Force. That means either 10,000 Sith Lords need to rise to power, or all of us need to be wiped out. Eh, what the hell, give it a shot - we're so friggin' powerful one measly Chose One isn't going to make any difference."


(Sometimes, I wish there could be a Dev thumbs up button for quality posts, because you pretty much nailed it.) -- Ghost Falcon

 

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Irrelevant. It's his universe. He created it and is whole and sole owner. His word is the Fundamental Truth, as far as the Star Wars IP is concerned.

If he woke up tomorrow and decided to read all the Star Wars books and came to the conclusion "Wow, this is all garbage, pull all future releases and have this expunged" that would be that. Everything would be N-canon, end of discussion.
That might be a reasonable argument...had the Star Wars IP not been licensed out to all and sundry. Books, movies, games, comics, toys, etc. Expunge all that and your empire comes crashing down around your ears.

You kinda lose the right to say to people, "Oh that's not canon. Only what I write is canon." when all that merchandising is approved and released.

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Makes perfect sense in the realm of a fairy tale in space. This isn't complicated. It is, literally, a "...and they all lived happily ever after" ending. No need to go beyond that.
If by "perfect sense" you mean, "the exact opposite of sense", then yes I agree with you. Because you quite literally can't have a happily ever after in such a universe. For a universe that took great pains to set up it's basis for existence, there has to be something more than just killing the Emperor and blowing up the Death Star.

If only to compensate the contractors' families.

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Did you watch/read Sleeping Beauty and think "But how could the regional economy recover from the overnight loss of trade that an entire, and obviously prosperous, kingdom provided? What were the social and political ramifications of that kingdom's sudden disappearance, and then reappearance after 100 years? How did the people of that kingdom deal with being living anachronisms when they woke up?" I didn't, because they don't matter. In the family friendly version, the princess and her kingdom are saved, true love triumphs, and everything works out in the end.
Had Sleeping Beauty spun multiple movies along with referencing say, the Little Mermaid, then yes I would've wondered. However, SB is a relatively self-contained movie.

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Star Wars is exactly the same. It is a contained story with a clear beginning, middle, and end. There are a few tidbits thrown out to give it a passing semblance of history before the movies, but nothing more than is absolutely necessary, and never dwelled upon.
A story that spans multiple decades. It's not really a clear beginning, middle, and end. What happened to Leia, Luke, and Lando during the year from the end of Empire and the start of RotJ? What happened in between ANH and Empire? How did Luke go from the wounded bird at the end of Empire to the relative bad-*** in Jedi? The movies are brief snippets into the lives and adventures of the main characters.



 

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Originally Posted by Hestis View Post
Which doesn't even remotely answer my question. You claim that balance is restored to the force by the death of the Emperor and Vader, and the wiping out of the Sith. So, at the end of the movies, you are left with only one side's view/philosophy of the Force, the Jedi, in the form of Luke. So explain to me how having only one viewpoint, with no opposition or counterpoint on something creates balance. That would be like saying if you were the only one having this discussion there would be a balanced viewpoint on whether or not the EU was valid.
From The Mythology of Star Wars with George Lucas and Bill Moyers, Lucas compared the difference between the light and dark sides as being like the difference between a symbiotic relationship and a cancer. A symbiotic relationship is one which benefits both parties and in which neither is harmed, whereas a cancer takes without giving back, eventually causing the death of both parties.

The Force (or Light Side, if you must) is naturally in balance. The presence of the Dark Side creates the imbalance, and so destroying it (by destroying the Sith), returns the natural order. So, by destroying the Emperor and being redeemed (and then dying), Anakin restores the natural balance of the Force, fulfilling the prophesy.


 

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Originally Posted by Hestis View Post
Which doesn't even remotely answer my question.
Actually, it does, if you understand what Star Wars is.

"A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away..." (6-part space fairytale happens) "...And they all lived happily ever after".

That's it - beginning, middle and end - from Qui-Gon's "Captain" at the start of TPM to the celebrating Gungan's "Wesa free!" at the end of RotJ, that's all there is - that's Star Wars - everything else is just various levels of fan fcition.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork