Star Wars help.....
Karen Traviss kinda had the same idea expressed in her Star Wars books. Jedi being blind or simply wrong, and too convinced of their own superiority to realize it. She even went as far as to state that it wasn't LOVE that the Jedi should have been forbidding of their padawans, it should have been OBSESSION they should have been keeping an eye out for.
She's hated by a large percentage of the Jedi fanbase, naturally.
On the other hand, the Mandalorian fanbase loves her, as she made them total Mary Sues in her books.
-np
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Thinking about it, it makes NO SENSE that the Jedi would be all fired concerned over this prophecy.
If the Jedi see "balancing the Force" meaning "Jedi win", why would they be concerned? At the time they found the "chosen one", the Jedi already HAD WON, as far as they could tell. They hadn't seen any Sith or darkside activity for AGES. They were an important part of galactic society. They had a totally sweet temple on the capitol planet and everyone gave them VIP treatment. It'd be like someone showing up today and saying, "You know, I totally have this perfect way to win World War 2." Why weren't they all like, "Hey, dude, you're late to the game, the Force was totally balanced a few centuries ago. Go home." -np |
Karen Traviss kinda had the same idea expressed in her Star Wars books. Jedi being blind or simply wrong, and too convinced of their own superiority to realize it. She even went as far as to state that it wasn't LOVE that the Jedi should have been forbidding of their padawans, it should have been OBSESSION they should have been keeping an eye out for.
She's hated by a large percentage of the Jedi fanbase, naturally. On the other hand, the Mandalorian fanbase loves her, as she made them total Mary Sues in her books. -np |
The problem with Traviss is that she makes crap up, has her protagonists proclaim it as truth, and then has characters who should know better agree. The characters in her books never speak with their own voice. Every one of them, regardless of affiliation or previous characterization, speaks with Karen Traviss' voice, and spouts her anti-Jedi line.
Just a couple that spring to mind:
Luke Skywalker saying there's no difference between Jedi and Sith.
Jaina going to the Mandalorians and being accused of leading a spoiled, soft princess life with no idea how to fight lightsaber resistant enemies without the Force...when she just came out of a Galaxy spanning war against the Vong that cost her her younger brother and who are...yes, lightsaber resistant and immune to the Force.
Jaina, Rogue Squadron Ace and combat pilot with years of experience, has to be taught how to use a comlink. By a Mandalorian.
Ben Skywalker wishes he were a Mandalorian, because they're so much better than Jedi.
Various and sundry people accusing the Jedi of being kidnappers, when every other source says that if a parent doesn't agree to give up a force sensitive child, the Jedi leave them in peace.
At no point does anyone point out that the entire Mandalorian history is one of raiding other planets, pillaging, ******, killing, taking slaves, and in at least one case, genocide.
And so on and so on.
Jedi being flawed individuals is nothing new. What she wrote? Just stupid.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
All these arguments about the balance of the force and how it plays out in the movies I disagree with because one of the major themes of Star Wars is you can't trust visions of the future.
Every time the Jedi, or the Sith attempt to "Foresee" something, they always get it wrong. Its a basic theme of miss trust in the skills of prediction, so of course there will be no "True" balance. And if there ever would be balance, it wouldn't happen in any way shape for form that they could predict let alone prophesize over.
Its a mcguffin. Its just a plot point used to hang the events of the movie on. If it were anything more than that, then Lucas FAILED MISERABLY at both describing it and then letting it play out to a logical conclusion. As we all know, the light side wins at the end as all the sith are dead and Luke is left alone to fend for himself.
If this isn't the answer he was looking for, if he had some deeper meaning, like mentioned that the sith were a cancer and by destroying them then the force is in balance, then he sure as heck didn't clue anyone EVER into it. In fact he made point after point after point that the Dark Side was equal to, if not greater than the power of the light. Over and over he pounded this fact into us. Never once is there mention that they are just a sickness to the force or anything similar.
Or if the two are equally powerful and the meaning of the films were about balance then, the films would end with Luke, Darth and the Emperor died leaving Leia untrained and ending the age of the force users. Or Luke would have to have both dark and light in his use as he goes off to live happy ever after.
However, from where I'm sitting, according to the movies, the light side wins, there is no balance, and the prophecy is just a mcguffin created solely for EP12&3 and has no place in Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, or Return of the Jedi.
Tales of Judgment. Also here, instead of that other place.
good luck D.B.B.

Also doesn't it seam strange that Obiwan and Yoda were training Luke to basically be an assassin? They constantly say, "You can't be a jedi unless you face Darth Vader!" Sure, they never say, "You must kill him!" But its heavily implied. And whenever Luke brings up some alternate way of dealing with him, like saving him, they get all... "OZ NOZ he will fail and all is lost!" or "Then the Empire has already PWND us!"
True he wasn't ready to face Darth Vader in Empire, but still I felt the pawn assassin routine constantly being pushed upon him. How light is that?
Also doesn't it seam strange that Obiwan and Yoda were training Luke to basically be an assassin? They constantly say, "You can't be a jedi unless you face Darth Vader!" Sure, they never say, "You must kill him!" But its heavily implied. And whenever Luke brings up some alternate way of dealing with him, like saving him, they get all... "OZ NOZ he will fail and all is lost!" or "Then the Empire has already PWND us!"
True he wasn't ready to face Darth Vader in Empire, but still I felt the pawn assassin routine constantly being pushed upon him. How light is that? |
What you are basically advocating is that the Jedi cannot kill someone ever, which I don't think many of the Jedi would have philosophically agreed with. They can use their abilities in defense and defense of others, and if Luke did not face Vader, he is not protecting others as he should as a Jedi.
Jedi are not about "attacking" but knowledge and defense. What Ben and Yoda say is perfectly in line with that philosophy.
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Just sayin', but per the Jedi, it's not a yin-yang sort of thing. The cancer analogy that was brought up fits the official explanation. The Dark Side isn't supposed to be there.
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Saying the Dark Side isn't supposed to be there is the same as saying jealousy, lust, hate, betrayal, etc., aren't supposed to be there either. But they are. Those things will always be there, since it's part of being a person. Trying to eliminate the Dark Side means you also have to eliminate those emotions and thoughts from every sentient being in that galaxy. Which also means that Free Will needs to be eliminated as well. One cannot know Good without Evil there by which to measure it.
I willing to have some disbelief in the infalliable nature of the Jedi. Being wrong, on occassion, is also part of being a person.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
If there isn't more than one side, there can't really be balance. If the Dark Side is cancer-like and shouldn't exist they would speak of bringing purity to the Force rather than balance.
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Or how, when one is ill, the energy of one's body is out of balance.
Illness has been described as something in the body being out of balance for centuries.
It's more like Luke needing to face the dark side. If he buries his head in the sand or let's the heart of the Empire keep going (The Emperor and Darth Vader), the Emperor already has won, as Ben says.
What you are basically advocating is that the Jedi cannot kill someone ever, which I don't think many of the Jedi would have philosophically agreed with. They can use their abilities in defense and defense of others, and if Luke did not face Vader, he is not protecting others as he should as a Jedi. Jedi are not about "attacking" but knowledge and defense. What Ben and Yoda say is perfectly in line with that philosophy. |
For Ep 6: Luke's trial was to face Vader again. Given that Obi was a ghost and Yoda about to become one, that was the only trial they could give Luke. And Luke was sorely tested, Vader and the Emperor are constantly baiting him to use his anger and thus become corrupted by the Darkside. (i find it difficult to believe that a moment of intense anger permenately corrupts a Jedi). Luke goes nuts, rather easily beats down Vader and then severs his bionic arm and then looks at his own black gloved hand and realizes what is happening and makes his choice, trial passed successfully.
Although, throwing his saber aside and standing proudly before the supreme Sith Lord and declaring "I am a Jedi, like my father before me!" was not the brightest thing to do.....
Weren't those both by the same guy?
Oh, there was also Truce at Bakura, where all of the characters became christian and helped out the Empire against an alien race (including an appearance by Anakin Skywalker to Leia to beg for her forgiveness). Also, weren't crystal star and dark saber by the same guy? Or am I mixing that up with other tripe? |
Ok, i've read the entire run of the EU stuff minus 3-5 of the newer ones and as far as i'm concerned Crystal Star is the worse of the whole lot (including the young jedi knight series).
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agree that Crystal Star was crap though.
I think the Timothy Zahn books were the only ones that I found really enjoyable (both the three that kicked off all the book writing, and with the other two he eventually wrote). They worked well for Star Wars, but also as books: I've actually reread them and liked them.
There were some Rogue Squadron ones that were fun "popcorn adventure" stories, too, but most of the others just struck me as lame. I think the worst one for me was when the author had Luke and Leia do some sparring and actually had Leia disarm Luke... even though she never does any practicing at all, and he's somehow facing dark jedi all the time. *rolls eyes*
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Or how, when one is ill, the energy of one's body is out of balance. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Indeed I have. There are various humours and when they are out of balance you have too much of one or more humours and/or too little of others.
Yin and Yang for instance. Or the seven kinds of chakra energy. Or the five elemental energies. I'm rather familiar with the concept. All it does is highlight the fact that there has to be more than one side for a balance to exist. |
By removing the Dark Side, you restore balance.
I think part of the problem is the terminology: Dark Side. This has led people to assume, naturally, that the Jedi practice the Light Side. I personally believe this assumption to be a mistake.
Can anyone point me to a time in the movies where a character says the phrase "The Light Side of the Force"? I can't remember one (and I may be mistaken). There is 'The Force', and then there is 'The Dark Side'.
Only if you look at The Force as only being one side. The Force is like nature or the body, in balance as a default. The Dark Side is pollution or an illness, something that should not be there, that causes an imbalance in the default state.
By removing the Dark Side, you restore balance. I think part of the problem is the terminology: Dark Side. This has led people to assume, naturally, that the Jedi practice the Light Side. I personally believe this assumption to be a mistake. Can anyone point me to a time in the movies where a character says the phrase "The Light Side of the Force"? I can't remember one (and I may be mistaken). There is 'The Force', and then there is 'The Dark Side'. |
If you remove Death (Dark Side) from the equation, it is too far balanced in terms of Life.
I think the Timothy Zahn books were the only ones that I found really enjoyable (both the three that kicked off all the book writing, and with the other two he eventually wrote). They worked well for Star Wars, but also as books: I've actually reread them and liked them.
There were some Rogue Squadron ones that were fun "popcorn adventure" stories, too, but most of the others just struck me as lame. I think the worst one for me was when the author had Luke and Leia do some sparring and actually had Leia disarm Luke... even though she never does any practicing at all, and he's somehow facing dark jedi all the time. *rolls eyes* |
The Dark Nest Trilogy also reveals yet again that the Lucas decree of "THOU SHALT NOT WRITE ABOUT THE PREQUEL ERA UNTIL I FINISH THE PREQUEL TRILOGY!" was more of a problem. That trilogy came out after Episode 3 and in it we discover that for all these years, the venerable Artoo-Deetoo, patron droid saint of Star Wars and veritable swiss army knife of useful abilities, had secretly recorded Anakin meeting Padme after the temple massacre in Ep 3 and that Artoo then remote accessed the temple surveilance cameras and downloaded the copies of Anakin killing the Jedi and younglings, and also recorded the encounter on Mustafar with Anakin and Padme up to the point where he began to Force choke her.
So all those years after ROTJ of never having a clue who their mother was, and suddenly out of the blue its revealed that Artoo had the knowledge all this time. Ugh.
Only if you look at The Force as only being one side. The Force is like nature or the body, in balance as a default. The Dark Side is pollution or an illness, something that should not be there, that causes an imbalance in the default state.
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By removing the Dark Side, you restore balance. |
I think part of the problem is the terminology: Dark Side. This has led people to assume, naturally, that the Jedi practice the Light Side. I personally believe this assumption to be a mistake. Can anyone point me to a time in the movies where a character says the phrase "The Light Side of the Force"? I can't remember one (and I may be mistaken). There is 'The Force', and then there is 'The Dark Side'. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I think that was part of the Corellian trilogy, and yes they sparred but Luke wasn't quite taking her seriously and was caught by surprise. She then revealed she practices when she can. Problem with Leia for too long in the books was that she was too chicken hearted to embrace her Force heiritage until the Dark Nest trilogy.
The Dark Nest Trilogy also reveals yet again that the Lucas decree of "THOU SHALT NOT WRITE ABOUT THE PREQUEL ERA UNTIL I FINISH THE PREQUEL TRILOGY!" was more of a problem. That trilogy came out after Episode 3 and in it we discover that for all these years, the venerable Artoo-Deetoo, patron droid saint of Star Wars and veritable swiss army knife of useful abilities, had secretly recorded Anakin meeting Padme after the temple massacre in Ep 3 and that Artoo then remote accessed the temple surveilance cameras and downloaded the copies of Anakin killing the Jedi and younglings, and also recorded the encounter on Mustafar with Anakin and Padme up to the point where he began to Force choke her. So all those years after ROTJ of never having a clue who their mother was, and suddenly out of the blue its revealed that Artoo had the knowledge all this time. Ugh. |
that's what annoys me. if you don't consider the EU canon, then hands off. Also, don't mine it for ideas, names, and places if you don't think of them as worthwhile. there were more than a few characters, places, and names that were bought in from various sources in the EU, yet Lucas never read any of that stuff. blah.
I think that was part of the Corellian trilogy, and yes they sparred but Luke wasn't quite taking her seriously and was caught by surprise. She then revealed she practices when she can. Problem with Leia for too long in the books was that she was too chicken hearted to embrace her Force heiritage until the Dark Nest trilogy.
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It was the Corellian trilogy, I'm remembering that now. But it was mentioned that Leia defeated him by skill. I remember the line going something like "it would only happen once in a thousand encounters, but it had happened." I remembered the line for its lameness, for one reason or another. *sighs* And then I'm able to forget names far too easily: memory is such an odd thing for me.
The whole debate on the nature of the Dark Side (is it a ying-yang, or a cancer) is the whole Manichean vs. Boethian nature of evil debate. Probably isn't going to be answered easily, given it's been debated for centuries. Heh.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
My inner child cried when the Jedi turned out to be a bunch of amateurs. The supposedly wise old Yoda has known about this prophecy for centuries, then at the last minute realizes, "Say, 'balance' is kind of open to interpretation, isn't it?"