I think Sonic resonance is lacking
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-07-19 18:48 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Evidently you've never bothered to actually use it or check the numbers. Liquefy is a spectacular "oh crap" button which will effectively take opposition right out of combat. The knockdown, hold, and massive to hit debuff will turn an enemy spawn into a bunch of toddlers on whiskey.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Yes I did, its just an underpowered version of earthquake. Thats how I have always seen it. It takes way too long to recharge for what it does.
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Too many alts to list.
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Like I said before, it recharges way too long for what it does. I know what it does for crying out load. I have seen it in combat and I have it on a sonic character, and if I didnt I could just as easily look it up in the real numbers and see its recharge is borked for what it does when you consider what the rest of the set has. Its still an underpowered version of earthquake.
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Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Evidently you've never bothered to actually use it or check the numbers. Liquefy is a spectacular "oh crap" button which will effectively take opposition right out of combat. The knockdown, hold, and massive to hit debuff will turn an enemy spawn into a bunch of toddlers on whiskey.
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This is akin to the good stormy / bad stormy arguments. If the defender knows what he's doing, you can keep the enemies all together in the anchor debuffs.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
Game changing in a negative way for everyone but masterminds. I have never seen any non-mastermind make use of this bubble on a team and not screw the team over by scattering mobs or getting themselves insta-killed from the aggro it generates. In theory you could do nice this with this power if you had a tank to hold the aggro but why go thru all that when you could just let the tank do his thing. With a bots mastermind I have seen it work well but thats due to body guard and the protector bot bubbles.
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It basically gives any ranged AT immunity to melee damage. On a team without melee, Force Bubble is insanely useful.
My suggestion is to learn how to use powers properly before judging their usefulness.
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There is a huge difference between this power and storm. With hurricane you have the debuffage going on range and tohit so you arent just insta-killed where as with force bubble you are. I have a bubbler with this and I never use this on a team due to the aggro and or scatter it does. Storm its alot easier to manuver enemies with it, force bubble not much so. All I can say is this to you dude, pics, and video or it never happened because I have never seen it work well on a non-mastermind. The thing with knockback there are very few players in the game who know how to use this without screwing up the team.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
This is akin to the good stormy / bad stormy arguments. If the defender knows what he's doing, you can keep the enemies all together in the anchor debuffs.
It basically gives any ranged AT immunity to melee damage. On a team without melee, Force Bubble is insanely useful. |
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I wouldn't mind seeing Sonic get a buff, maybe it can give you res to hami raid stuff. It's certainly not attractive as it's uncommon, I got a Sonic/Sonic corrupter who has run out of content, nearly got deleted due to looking like a disco ball at one point but pretty much sits on the shelf. For me it is just not offering something for any occasion like other sets do, something versus Psi would be nice.
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I'd say lowering the cost of the toggle -res debuff. Just that on it's own almost shuts down my sonic/sonic's endurance recovery. And I slotted multiple end redux into it.
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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
1. Defensive set bonuses are common, resistance ones are not.
2. Sonic resonance does more than add buff shields. It has mez protection that is equivalent to clear mind but has a faster animation. It also has two ways of debuffing opposition resistance. The only thing I'd want as a buff to sonic resonance is a lower recharge for liquefy so it can be used as a reliable alpha strike power. Sonic resonance defenders are highly underrated. |
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My poor fire/sonic controller begs for an attentive Kin to be on the team, otherwise I can enter a mission, toggle on Dispersion, Hot Feet and Disruption, and watch my blue bar evaporate while teammates enter the door.
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Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
I'd say lowering the cost of the toggle -res debuff. Just that on it's own almost shuts down my sonic/sonic's endurance recovery. And I slotted multiple end redux into it.
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Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Sonic's always struck me as a really good "+1" . It won't make a team on its own, but it will make just about any team clearly and visibly better, and it will do so with minimal fuss. It's very undramatic, but an extra doubling of survivability no matter what, and instant-on -Res in the hula hoops, make for a really good 6th or 7th person for any team.
(compare, on the flip side, that second Kin or Force Fielder.) |
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Originally Posted by Gemini_2099
Disruption field is a massive end hog. It needs more jazz for it to be sucking so much end, or reduce its end usage.
Sonic Siphon - I like the idea of making it a true siphon. Liquefy - Lower the duration or increase its debuff values. |
Sonic is very much under-appreciated simply because, for the most part, people don't see it's effects. Everyone's doing more damage, but don't know/care why or how. Same thing with taking less damage.
Would I like it to get some lovin'? Of course. I love sonic defenders, and my Grav/Sonic troller. I don't think the set really 'needs' attention, but some kind of buff would be nice.
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I use Force Bubble to great effect on Rikti mothership raids. As soon as we land on the mothership, I direct all the squishies to huddle up in the middle of the bowl, and then I turn on Force Bubble to keep the Rikti out while the meleers get to play pattycake with them. Works like a charm.
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Originally Posted by EvilRyu
There is a huge difference between this power and storm. With hurricane you have the debuffage going on range and tohit so you arent just insta-killed where as with force bubble you are. I have a bubbler with this and I never use this on a team due to the aggro and or scatter it does. Storm its alot easier to manuver enemies with it, force bubble not much so. All I can say is this to you dude, pics, and video or it never happened because I have never seen it work well on a non-mastermind. The thing with knockback there are very few players in the game who know how to use this without screwing up the team.
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@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
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Even if you do have two Sonics on a team, that takes people at 55% res to [whatever] and puts them at the cap. And it allows double hula-hoops, for 60% Res Debuff around the guy on point instead of 30%. | It is however, hard to make redundant (what are the odds of 2 Sonic Resonance users on a team? |
So two isn't redundant at all.
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Originally Posted by Celestial_Lord
I use Force Bubble to great effect on Rikti mothership raids. As soon as we land on the mothership, I direct all the squishies to huddle up in the middle of the bowl, and then I turn on Force Bubble to keep the Rikti out while the meleers get to play pattycake with them. Works like a charm.
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I've used it at the first wall on the Eden Trial. Keeps those Boulder buff thingy's away, along with everyone else.
Especially now that ranged defense is so easy to come by, I'm not sure how one could find this power "useless". Unless they just refuse to experiment, try new things, etc. But it seems I usually get great use out of certain powers, only to come to the forums and be told they are worthless.
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I was thinking the same thing this morning. It would be awesome as a click power that grants an ally a -res aura auto power, maybe something with a 60 second duration and 120 second recharge. That would also help keep the aggro from falling back on the defender/troller, an occasional problem when Disruption Field debuffs a group that hasn't been aggro'ed yet.|
Originally Posted by Donna_
Disruption Field, Change to a click power instead of a toggle like fortitude maybe decrease the -res % because of stacking... prob a long recharge tho like 120sec, or allow to place on yourself
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
I like the balance between offensive and defensive that Sonic provides, but I think it covers too few late-game holes.
No Psi protection - some could be put into Clarity. Clarity deserevs a bit of a boost since some of its effects are redundant with Dispersion. No endurance management tools or end drain resistance - some could go into Sonic Haven or even Sonic Dispersion. There are plenty of teammates who need these much more than the extra S/L Resistance by the later levels. |
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Originally Posted by Starflier
I concur.
Sonic is very much under-appreciated simply because, for the most part, people don't see it's effects. Everyone's doing more damage, but don't know/care why or how. Same thing with taking less damage. Would I like it to get some lovin'? Of course. I love sonic defenders, and my Grav/Sonic troller. I don't think the set really 'needs' attention, but some kind of buff would be nice. |
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Im not in favor of the cottage rule either, but Having those lame phase powers (and sonic doesnt even accept Intangible enhs) means I have powers to skip. Now, having too many useful powers means I have hard choices to make or like many armor sets I need practically everything otherwise im boned.
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Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
(Ignoring the Cottage Rule because it's existance is nothing but a burdon)
I say we replace -all- phase powers from all sets. They are chosen 0.5% of the time. They are properly used less than that. They can be replaced by pretty much anything. And they take up space that could potentially help a powerset be productive. Now, I don't care what fills these slots but the Phase powers are essentially a wasted slot. After all these years of people saying they are 'barely even marginally useful', I think it's time to finally replace them with new powers that help powersets with them be more productive. |
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I regret that my wording allowed readers to infer that I was implying 2 Sonics were redundant. I was not.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Even if you do have two Sonics on a team, that takes people at 55% res to [whatever] and puts them at the cap. And it allows double hula-hoops, for 60% Res Debuff around the guy on point instead of 30%.
So two isn't redundant at all. |
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'Kay.|
Originally Posted by Captain_Freak
PS, Ro is unwelcome in this thread.
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Wait, what's 'Ro'?
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well the consensus seems to be that Sonic could use a very minor buff. Thats good though. Im almost positive that a buff to sonic siphon isnt gonna happen, the set has an aoe -res and an end redux to disruption field isnt gonna happen unless its from 1.04 to .75ish.
I think the major problem with saying Sonic is lacking, is that in a solo situation it is, but in a team its hard to quantify. If you were a dev, how would you visualize the set, then adjust for 1 other At (team of 2) with a min/max performance....then adjust for 7 others with a min/max....then figure out how 8 Sonic resonancers would fair against most game content (the super team if you will)
Want to thank everyone for contributing, this is going to be a long hard road.
I'm not a fan of Sonic Resonance in its current form.
We've mentioned the "cage" power. Also touched on the hefty endurance cost of Disruption Field (too high, IMO).
Let's look at some of its other issues:
- On a character without a pet, 2 powers that would otherwise debuff cannot be used
- One of these two (Sonic Repulsion) is jaw droppingly, call-your-ex-girlfriend-long-distance-from-Egypt terrible
- The extra resistance it provides over Thermal is matched if the Thermal casts the AoE heal one time
- Clarity. Because what every team secretely needs is a second anti-mezz? On a 90 second duration so that most of the time it does nothing because your teammates are inside your bubble?
- Liquefy. I'm always surprised by the praise this power receives. It's a hodge-podge of thrown together abilities on a very long recharge. It does poor damage and poor control. The only thing going for it is the -ToHit and maaaybe the -Defense. The knockdown rate is only about 3%, or roughly less than half as good as Earthquake. If it were on a 180 second recharge it would come in at about the strength of other sets.
Not having too many powers you want to pick from, by the way, is never an advantage.
I see a lot of people bringing up an interesting arguement for Liquefy.
It's a good power.. when compared to most tier 9 powers available for support sets. It's the only one of it's kind. We don't include Earthquake because it's not only in a different Set but in a different catagory all together. Liquefy may sound nice. But it doesn't make up for the fact that Sonic Resonance's main goal (Which is providing a Res buff) is completely subpar when compared directly to Thermal, and is also Supbar when compared indirectly to Force Field and Cold. It sadly doesn't provide as much damage mitigation as any of these sets. This is of course assuming they are all on the same multiplier.
Before anyone says 'oh, but liquefy provides a large burst of mitigation in a pinch'. Yeah well Force Bubble provides a large burst of mitigation indefinantly (or atleast until the bubbler loses endurance).
So, lets compare these 'burst mitigation' powers from each of the mitigation sets (including Empathy)
Sonic:
1.Liquefy. We've discussed it. It's a weaker, longer recharge Earthquake with a -tohit property.
2. Sonic Cage. These powers are a joke. Nobody in their right mind uses them. I'm sure there are some (1) godlike wielders of these powers but most teams move too fast within a mission to wait around for 30 seconds.
Cold:
1. Snow Storm: Cold already provides +Defense but combined with -Recharge helps prevent Cascading Failure. Great power.
2. Benumb: A single target -DMG power. Not too shabby. Argueably the best single target Debuff in the game.
3. Frostwork: Single Target HP Boost. Thus increasing amount of HP Regenerated and amount healed. Great for Alpha-weak tanks.
Force Field
1. Personal Force Field: A Self inflicted status of God-mode. Selfish power, but is still better than sonic cage..
2. Repulsion Bomb: AoE Knockback. I typically wouldn't put this here because nobody takes it (sadly). Knocking back 3-4 enemies is the same as holding those enemies for a short duration. Thats 1-2 hits from each diverted.
3. Force Bubble: Perma Liquefy essentially, except without the -tohit or -defense. Only 0.69 endurance cost. Amazing.
Thermal
1. All the heal powers: Healing + Resistance is immediately better than just +Resistance. There is no arguement here honestly.
2. Heat Exhaustion: Debuff that reduces the affected Target(s) with a -50% DMG debuff. This power alone laughs at Liquefy.
Empathy:
Regen Aura: A MASSIVE Regen boost. This is shear mitigation. People should seriously only use this in the middle of combat instead of wasting it at the beginning of the mission. Recovery? Sure go ahead but this power is a 'burst' power.
Fortitude: +15% defense to all. Thats 30% mitigation against minions. Mathematically, thats MORE MITIGATION than an unbuffed sonic haven+shield. Those two only provide 20% mitigation. And not agianst psionic. Note: Thats only against minions.
I could probably argue that Storm summoning has better mitigation than Sonic due to Snow Storm's -Recharge, Hurricane's Knockback and -37.5% Tohit, Thunder Clap (not nearly as good but still) and Steamy Mist.
Sonic Resonance needs a buff. Plain and Simple.
I mean, FORTITUDE provides MORE MITIGATION than Sonic's Two shields on a single target.
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My only problem with Sonic Resonance, is needing an ally to use it's -resist toggle. :/
Other than that, I find the set great.
It's that one toggle that makes me not enjoy my Sonic/ Defender as much as I could.
Force Field on the other hands, needs something more imo.
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RANT ALERT
Sonic has major suckage. And I have a Sonic/Psi sitting at 50 that I NEVER play.. Is it because he is no good.. nah.. he is ok.. but there are things in Sonic I just cannot stand.
I cannot stand the big bubble. Its too hard to see through. Now with the ability to change colors it doesnt fade like the old one does. I have actually quit teams because the firggin sonic bubble makes my eyes hurt... badly..
I hate the fact that the AoE debuff has to be targeted on a ally which makes it a power that is absolutely USELESS for me solo. The friggin TRICK ARROW can cast a disruption field AT foes from a distance away. But the MASTER of all things sonic needs some tank or scrapper or brute to cast this end hoggin heifer of a power onto. ABSOLUTELY stupid design.
Sonic Repulsion. Stupid power. A carbon copy of a power from Force Field Manipulation that even FORCE FIELD no longer uses because it was utter crap. Power should be replaced with something offensive that has a small -res or small debuff of some type.
Liquefy sucks. It is about one of the most dissapointing Tier 9 powers in the game. Radiation Infection works better, comes earlier and does it in less slots
Simply put. This entire set needs a revamp...
Along with SNIPES.. ( im just saying )
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So what is your point? You also have 2 bubbles, Sonic Repulsion and Clarity that are useless solo. Many sets are this way. Cold, Thermal, Emp, FF and Kin all have powers that are useless while solo. So don't pick that power on your solo build.|
Originally Posted by Airhammer
I hate the fact that the AoE debuff has to be targeted on a ally which makes it a power that is absolutely USELESS for me solo. |
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Sonic Repulsion. Stupid power. A carbon copy of a power from Force Field Manipulation that even FORCE FIELD no longer uses because it was utter crap. Power should be replaced with something offensive that has a small -res or small debuff of some type.
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I would like to actually see a damage aura that you could apply to others. Imagine a Spine/Dark, Fire or Elec with yet another aura on them. Quote:
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Originally Posted by Airhammer
Liquefy sucks. It is about one of the most dissapointing Tier 9 powers in the game. Radiation Infection works better, comes earlier and does it in less slots
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Radiation Infection does something similar but it dies when your anchor dies. Depending on the team that puts you somewhere between, "oh well, need to find another anchor" and "holy crap, where did all this aggro come from!?!" Non issue with Liquefy.
I agree with AirHammer about Disruption Field. The way it works really brings the sets solo-ability down. -Res is one of the set's key strengths, and solo, you're reduced to a single target debuff.
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It is possible they want that to stay a team ability, so lowering the recharge in liquefy would transform the set not just solo wise, but also team wise.
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
I agree with AirHammer about Disruption Field. The way it works really brings the sets solo-ability down. -Res is one of the set's key strengths, and solo, you're reduced to a single target debuff.
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I believe part of the problem is that the devs, for some reason I don't quite get, value resistance mitigation much higher than defense mitigation. This should be readily apparent from the plethora of defense buffing options (in pool powers and sets, not to mention the complete IO advantage to defense over resistance). When the rubber meets the road defense is usually better since if you don't get hit, the rider ability doesn't hit you either (be it a mez, slow, end drain or whatever). |
Originally Posted by Vel_Overload
I see a lot of people bringing up an interesting arguement for Liquefy.
It's a good power.. when compared to most tier 9 powers available for support sets. It's the only one of it's kind. We don't include Earthquake because it's not only in a different Set but in a different catagory all together. Liquefy may sound nice. But it doesn't make up for the fact that Sonic Resonance's main goal (Which is providing a Res buff) is completely subpar when compared directly to Thermal, and is also Supbar when compared indirectly to Force Field and Cold. It sadly doesn't provide as much damage mitigation as any of these sets. This is of course assuming they are all on the same multiplier. |
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| Before anyone says 'oh, but liquefy provides a large burst of mitigation in a pinch'. Yeah well Force Bubble provides a large burst of mitigation indefinantly (or atleast until the bubbler loses endurance). |
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So, lets compare these 'burst mitigation' powers from each of the mitigation sets (including Empathy) Sonic: 1.Liquefy. We've discussed it. It's a weaker, longer recharge Earthquake with a -tohit property. |
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| 2. Sonic Cage. These powers are a joke. Nobody in their right mind uses them. I'm sure there are some (1) godlike wielders of these powers but most teams move too fast within a mission to wait around for 30 seconds. |
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Cold: 1. Snow Storm: Cold already provides +Defense but combined with -Recharge helps prevent Cascading Failure. Great power. |
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| 2. Benumb: A single target -DMG power. Not too shabby. Argueably the best single target Debuff in the game. |
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| 3. Frostwork: Single Target HP Boost. Thus increasing amount of HP Regenerated and amount healed. Great for Alpha-weak tanks. |
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Force Field 1. Personal Force Field: A Self inflicted status of God-mode. Selfish power, but is still better than sonic cage.. |
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| 2. Repulsion Bomb: AoE Knockback. I typically wouldn't put this here because nobody takes it (sadly). Knocking back 3-4 enemies is the same as holding those enemies for a short duration. Thats 1-2 hits from each diverted. |
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| 3. Force Bubble: Perma Liquefy essentially, except without the -tohit or -defense. Only 0.69 endurance cost. Amazing. |
What a nonsensical statement. It's like people think only the hopping around visible part of the power are important. What hogwash.
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Thermal 1. All the heal powers: Healing + Resistance is immediately better than just +Resistance. There is no arguement here honestly. |
I do admit, however, that thermal will protect better in general, though I don't think it debuffs as well.
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| 2. Heat Exhaustion: Debuff that reduces the affected Target(s) with a -50% DMG debuff. This power alone laughs at Liquefy. |
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Empathy: Regen Aura: A MASSIVE Regen boost. This is shear mitigation. People should seriously only use this in the middle of combat instead of wasting it at the beginning of the mission. Recovery? Sure go ahead but this power is a 'burst' power. Fortitude: +15% defense to all. Thats 30% mitigation against minions. Mathematically, thats MORE MITIGATION than an unbuffed sonic haven+shield. Those two only provide 20% mitigation. And not agianst psionic. Note: Thats only against minions. |
As for fort, it's not bad. However you can only keep it on a couple teammates and you have to spend a fair amount of work maintaining it. It also requires double the slotting of the sonic shields to work at best (recharge in addition to defense). Though again, stacking buffs are the key here, with the sonic shields coupled with the big bubble adding a decent amount of mitigation.
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| I could probably argue that Storm summoning has better mitigation than Sonic due to Snow Storm's -Recharge, Hurricane's Knockback and -37.5% Tohit, Thunder Clap (not nearly as good but still) and Steamy Mist. |
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Sonic Resonance needs a buff. Plain and Simple. I mean, FORTITUDE provides MORE MITIGATION than Sonic's Two shields on a single target. |
While I agree that sonic could probably use a bit of help, the situation is nowhere near as dire as you paint it. Sonic is a compromise between damage mitigation and damage output enhancement. The ability to debuff a single target to the tune of a 60% resistance debuff is huge. Couple that with a 55% resistance buff and you really aren't talking chicken feed.
It is a bit limited in tricks, I admit, and the recharge on Liquefy is rather over long, but people really are selling the set short with hyperbolic nonsense.
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Force Bubble is a downright game changing powerful ability. And not just for MMs.
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