Religions die hard.
What kills me is the way those of you on the other side can pick and chose cute little tidbits while ignoring the larger questions... Distorting small aspects of an argument into something they aren't, or attacks with NO substance behind them may work on talk radio but they don't win a real debate or score you any real points in an HONEST discussion.
You think you defender can pull aggro off of that blaster in the scenario I mentioned? I'd like to see it.
TANK does NOT equal ONLY survivability.
A TANK is a character that can grab and hold aggro, keeping it off other players (who still have an obligation in those situations to play intelligently themselves). Anything other than that is simply a character with high defense or damage resistance, no matter what their AT is (including Tanker).
I've said it 5 times already I'll say it again (and even simpler) and hope it gets through to the thick witted. I have ZERO problems with ANY build for ANY AT, so long as you play to what you build. MY issue is with any AT walking in and thinking because they have ONE tool of a role (Survivability) that they're qualified to COMPLETELY fill that role.
You don't NEED any AT for 99% of the game IF everybody else is making maximum use of how they built their toon. Don't come to me and tell me your buffed Defender is going to pull that Minotaur off the blaster in my party that just hit it with 3 or 4 very high damage attacks though. Somebody built for a CLASSIC tank role can, YOU will not. Said Defender, like my own Kin/Rad, is probably excellent at pulling and has very good survivability but that alone does NOT make a true classic Tank.
NOW... setting aside the vacuous attacks and distortions, I'll return to the main argument.
I'll agree with the first one to comment on my post. On smaller teams, a tauntless tank is probably quite capable of doing a classically defined tank's job. On bigger team though, NO. Here's why IMO:
Let's say you're the literal one in a thousand QUALITY tauntless, true gauntlet style tank. You're smart enough to know that proper tanking in that situation means playing Whack A mole with all the baddies so you can hold as much aggro as possible. You manage your aggro cap properly too (unlike 90% of "tanks" nowadays). What do you do without taunt, when you're surrounded by baddies, having a hard time moving AND either somebody is taking too much damage and jackrabbits, aggroing more OR a random patrol comes by and adds?
The answer is you probably watch one or more of your team faceplant. With taunt, you can pull them in, away from your team (again assuming proper aggro cap management).
As I pointed out before, IF you have a team of all purpled out farmers, none of this matters. The whole team can act as stupid as they want and have minimal consequences. That's my ONLY objection to how powerful some of the sets have gotten; they've eliminated sold tactics from upper level game play and have made some of you forget that reality is 90% of the toons in the game are NOT at that level enhancement wise.
That's a whole different though VAGUELY related rant however. I'm still trying to debate ROLES (and YES, I should have used better wording in earlier posts to make that distinction), on a team as opposed to ATs. IF you want to tell me you're a main tank on my team, you'd better bring aggro management skills and tools to the table. Otherwise to me, you're just some other role with high survivability. My hard to kill Kin may be a great puller but her ideal role on the team is buffing and debuffing.
That said, I'll repeat something else I said earlier. Again let's see if it sinks in or gets any acknowledgement. The reason most of us out there have ZERO faith in tauntless tankers is we've seen FAR too many "Heavy Scrappers" passing themselves off as true classical tanks when all they really are is braindead, scrapperlocked Scrankers. They only slot for their own survivability and damage, they fixate on a single target instead of maximizing Gauntlet's effectiveness by punching as many targets as they can in the face, and they wouldn't dream of even dropping a single taunt enhancement into their taunt aura to make them more effective.
Face reality, people. For every 1 of you here that has posted an intelligent argument and SEEMS to know how to build and play some sort of non traditional "Tank" that can still be effective in the classic role, there are HUNDREDS of the idiot types who cause wipe after wipe while DEMANDING to be respected as the perfect classic tank.
THOSE are the people poisoning us against you and giving your tauntless tank a bed rep by association. THOSE are also the poeple you should be mad at, NOT us doubters.
5 years of playing this game, and the bad ones are ALL I've run into. Still waiting for one of you to show me the good ones truly exist as more than a concept on the board.
Truthfully though, with that said, I think I'm done with this "conversation". The whole reason I so rarely contribute anything here despite being in-game here for ages IS for every intelligent comment you get (and there were a few regarding my posts here), there's far more insubstantial attacks, baiting and drivel. Makes it impossible to have an honest, intellectual conversation.
Quoting in a somewhat broken order...
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And I've seen plenty of "properly" (by your definition) built tanks who are just as useless. So what's your point? One power does not make the difference. Throw an incompetent player behind a tank with taunt, and your team will still faceplant. Throw a decent player behind a tauntless tank and you'll be fine. |
Originally Posted by Stardrive
The reason most of us out there have ZERO faith in tauntless tankers is we've seen FAR too many "Heavy Scrappers" passing themselves off as true classical tanks when all they really are is braindead, scrapperlocked Scrankers.
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The same holds true for pretty much everything else in the game, too.
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| MY issue is with any AT walking in and thinking because they have ONE tool of a role (Survivability) that they're qualified to COMPLETELY fill that role. |
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| THOSE are the people poisoning us against you and giving your tauntless tank a bed rep by association. THOSE are also the poeple you should be mad at, NOT us doubters. |
Incompetent players - both those behind the controls of the specific character and those who refuse to learn "Hey, they can do something else" - aren't fixable with a posted build.
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You know, I was agreeing with everything so far. I was particularly impressed with how you stated it was your opinion and based on your personal experience..... then you had to go and act like you're speaking for some majority. |
Originally Posted by Stardrive
The reason most of us out there have ZERO faith in tauntless tankers is
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| Face reality, people. For every 1 of you here that has posted an intelligent argument and SEEMS to know how to build and play some sort of non traditional "Tank" that can still be effective in the classic role, there are HUNDREDS of the idiot types who cause wipe after wipe while DEMANDING to be respected as the perfect classic tank. |
Back to the main discussion - I think you can build for your role, that being a 'classic' tank, without taking Taunt. You just have to be using the right powersets and picking the right powers. I have an ice/SS tank who has no problem operating without Taunt. Out of six tanks, this is my only one that does not have Taunt. He has two taunt auras, two AoE attacks and four ranged attacks. Given that background, Taunt just doesn't bring as much to the table as it does for my WP tank.
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Funny you should say that. One day, I played with two different tanks, both Ice Armor, but memory fails regarding thier attack set.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
To be fair, it's actually hard to learn how to play a tank well. I don't read any of the other AT forums, but tanks always struck me as more complex and more difficult to play WELL. And by 'playing a tank well', I mean playing them *AS* a tank, filling the classic role of aggro control and protecting the team.
Back to the main discussion - I think you can build for your role, that being a 'classic' tank, without taking Taunt. You just have to be using the right powersets and picking the right powers. I have an ice/SS tank who has no problem operating without Taunt. Out of six tanks, this is my only one that does not have Taunt. He has two taunt auras, two AoE attacks and four ranged attacks. Given that background, Taunt just doesn't bring as much to the table as it does for my WP tank. |
Both were Taunt-less.
The first was nothing more than a poorly designed (and played) Scrapper, agroing just enough to stay busy slowly killing a couple of foes while the Defender and the Scrapper did 90% of the work. He left the team and we invited another Tank
The second was excellent at agro-control and made the game experience a lot smoother, fulfilling all of the expected duties of a Tank in "agro-control" mode. In team chat, I told the Scrapper that our SG should trade the first Tank for the second. The Tank merely "lol"-ed, but the Scrapper (my best friend since 1993) understood my criticism of his half-brother. He was a good guy, (catered my wedding ten years ago) but couldn't Tank worth a ****.
Taunt wasn't gonna change that for either of those two Tanks.
Frankly, given that it's perfectly possible to run steamroll teams without a Tanker (or even Scrapper) at all, I can't really understand why some people get quite so worked up over the matter.
I pull a little stray aggro on my Blaster? I deal with it. I pull an entire mob's worth? I probably die...and then adjust my tactics. Keeping myself alive is at least as much my job as anybody else's.
However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
The reason why people argue about some things that become controversial on these boards is because the stakes are so low.
This subject would definitely fit that description.
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Originally Posted by Kiken
Frankly, given that it's perfectly possible to run steamroll teams without a Tanker (or even Scrapper) at all, I can't really understand why some people get quite so worked up over the matter.
I pull a little stray aggro on my Blaster? I deal with it. I pull an entire mob's worth? I probably die...and then adjust my tactics. Keeping myself alive is at least as much my job as anybody else's. |
I think though that there is a difference between what you "can do" and what is helpful. I have always found well played tanks to be very helpful to teams. They aren't necessary but they do provide a valuable commodity. I have to worry less about being attacked, have to worry less about protecting other teammates who are being attacked, and, crucially, am able to better predict where I should aim my AoEs without worrying too much about it.
To me the question of whether a tank should skip taunt is a bit like asking if an a Controller should skip their AoE hold. No team really "needs" it but its not a bad thing to have. If you can be effective without it might be ok to skip. That said, a lot of people are not good judges of how much they are contributing to a team. For people who are new to tanking I always prefer they have Taunt because it is much easier to use than most other methods and very clear in its purpose. I consider myself a fairly novice tank and I can assure you do not want to depend on me if I don't have that power.
IMO though a tank (not "Tanker") who comes into the team with the that attitude "the team can just deal with it" isn't bringing much.
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Same here. Doesn't matter if it's one bad guy or five of them. If it comes my way, I'm going to take care of it.|
Originally Posted by Kiken
I pull a little stray aggro on my Blaster? I deal with it.
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I've never understood the obsession some players have with 100% agro control. It seems that the Taunt-is-required crowd feels that if a tanker lets a single enemy slip away that the entire team is going to somehow faceplant.
Competent players are more than capable of dealing with a bit of stripped agro.
This argument is exactly why I use two builds. Going run a TF as the main tank? Switch to "team" build with taunt and beefed up Defense/Resist. Going to run with one or two friends? switch to "solo(or whatever you want to call it)" build that has a little more damage and no taunt.
Both are equally fun to play and do what they are intended. The answer to the original question that has been stated many times in this thread is: Build for what you intend to do. If you plan on tanking for an 8 person team and effectively hold aggro, then you may want to take taunt if you dont have a lot of auras or quick attack chain. You really dont know if you can effectively hold aggro until you try it out.
Last and defintely not least, have fun. This is a game, not a combat simulator. If you arent having fun, you are doing it wrong!
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So how often do you find yourself needing to taunt him? |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
I'll use it when I feel it's needed (as with Father Xmas).
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Interesting comparison. Back when they nerfed the AoE holds, illusion got hit particularly hard and many people did in fact start skipping their AoE holds because they felt the power simply was not worth it and that it required too many slots (i.e. six) to make it even marginally effective.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
To me the question of whether a tank should skip taunt is a bit like asking if an a Controller should skip their AoE hold. No team really "needs" it but its not a bad thing to have.
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For the record, it was suggested that I take it, and that if I was going to be teaming, I should have it. I have been on many teams with my tanks that didn't have Taunt, and we steamrolled. It was a thought that came to me that I thought I would put it to the community.
I don't think it's essential, but depending on team make up, the tactics would need to reflect that. Again, To Taunt or not..............my answer to that is no, I will not taunt.
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You can tank without Taunt, but it's a very useful tool to have. I noted all the pros and cons in my guides in my sig (power selection of Taunt, and then the Four Rules of Tanking). Basically, it boils down to a few things for me. It's ranged, so you can reel in mobs that are farther away, helping you to tank better. It does -range, which helps out in a variety of ways: it brings mobs in closer, tends to make them want to close to melee with you, and can even have goofy uses against tough AVs and bosses. Also, it's great in hard to hit situations, or when teammates are pulling aggro off of you. These two come to light often enough fighting AVs that I recommend taking Taunt at some point just for those encounters.|
Originally Posted by thgebull0425
For the record, it was suggested that I take it, and that if I was going to be teaming, I should have it. I have been on many teams with my tanks that didn't have Taunt, and we steamrolled. It was a thought that came to me that I thought I would put it to the community.
I don't think it's essential, but depending on team make up, the tactics would need to reflect that. Again, To Taunt or not..............my answer to that is no, I will not taunt. |
I don't think you need to take it very soon... just grab it somewhere in the 20s or 30s when you have room. It's good enough that it's worth taking at some point for any tank: you can even use it solo, which helps tanks leverage all the aoes they usually have, too.
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Truth!
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Originally Posted by Kiken
Keeping myself alive is at least as much my job as anybody else's.
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I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
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Bingo. This is what I meant by my "aggro monkey" comment earlier.
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Panzerwaffen has it: I've never understood the obsession some players have with 100% agro control. It seems that the Taunt-is-required crowd feels that if a tanker lets a single enemy slip away that the entire team is going to somehow faceplant. |
Dec out.
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Stripes quote FTW!
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Originally Posted by Postagulous
Lighten up, Francis. |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Hmmm, I forgot about this thread, lol. 
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Oh, I am, but I could always use a couple more for my fire2 tank... |
Originally Posted by Master-Blade
Well just be glad we already have ours.
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Originally Posted by Master-Blade
Anyway, 3 from that set give you 10% regen, and slotting 4 grants 5% global recharge bonus. Yum. lol
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Taunt auto-hits up to five people (in PvE), so I dunno what you're talking about "somewhat-inaccurate". ... edit: unless you're talking about the proc being the actual AoE, in which case, yes.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Stripes quote FTW!
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Lighten' up, Francis.|
Originally Posted by Decorum
Anybody calls me Francis...I'll kill ya!
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Dec out.
If you claim to be a tank, then your taunt should be there to be used to help your team by pulling aggro off of them and onto you.. I say yes. I have mudpots and taunt on my 50 Stoner and besides,extra enemies with the right build shouldnt affect you that bad.
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Go ahead, Francis. I got multiple self rezzes >.>
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Originally Posted by Decorum
Anybody calls me Francis...I'll kill ya!
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Anyone who selects 'Tanker' during the character creation process *IS* a tank. No claiming is required. |
Originally Posted by Greenblood_NA
If you claim to be a tank, then your taunt should be there to be used to help your team by pulling aggro off of them and onto you.. I say yes.
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It still kills me that after this game being around for six years and as flexible as it is, people still can't let go of the last vestiges of that "Holy Trinity" mindset.
Dec out.
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