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If you're referring to when I said that tanks don't have to be an aggro monkey, that's a different thing (meaning their sole purpose is to grab all the aggro all the time).|
Duncan_Frost's talkin' to me?: However, whoever it was earlier in the thread that 'tanks don't have to take aggro' is wrong. |
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That's like rolling an Emp/Elec defender and then only taking the attacks - if you wanted to do that, why the heck didn't you roll a Blaster? 
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| I mean, if you want to solo on your hilariously-gimped build, go ahead, but don't expect me to be happy teaming with your useless butt. |
Dec out.
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Since you decided to jump on me, I thought I'd respond and fix your ATs up there a little so it makes my point.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
I have a better idea. Play to have fun and don't tell other people how to play their characters.
"Role" is not synonymous with "AT". An AR blaster can buff the team. An AR blaster can tank. You see, in this game, tank is both a noun and a verb. The person 'tanking' doesn't have a BE a tank. |
Lighten up, Francis.
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I hate lightening up.
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Originally Posted by Postagulous
Since you decided to jump on me, I thought I'd respond and fix your ATs up there a little so it makes my point.
Lighten up, Francis. |
I take Taunt on my tankers except my fire tanker. If someone steals aggro from him I am probably dead already.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Taunt is not essential. People that flip out because the tank doesn't have taunt aren't worth teaming with in my book, just like people who insist that ever kin must have speed boost, etc. etc.
On the other hand, taunt is very useful. I have it on all of my tanks. I don't have it on my brute, but only because it's a very tight build and I had other powers that I found more useful to take.
Some sets have a much stronger taunt aura than others, too.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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You can get away from not having it if you solo or have alot of AoE attacks.|
Originally Posted by Organica
Taunt is not essential. People that flip out because the tank doesn't have taunt aren't worth teaming with in my book, just like people who insist that ever kin must have speed boost, etc. etc.
On the other hand, taunt is very useful. I have it on all of my tanks. I don't have it on my brute, but only because it's a very tight build and I had other powers that I found more useful to take. Some sets have a much stronger taunt aura than others, too. |
The IO taunt sets have kick butt bonus's, though.
Combine that with it makes it easier to gather enemys for debuffs and AoE attacks.
I can see puting it off until you can handle the load and the role of a tank, but i consider it essential, it is like taking an emp without any of his 3 heals.
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Taunt enhancements increase duration. Duration of the taunt directly correlates with the effectiveness of the taunt on your Threat rating for the AI. (The Threat equation includes TauntDurationRemaining * 1000.)|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Why would a tank need to slot taunt enhancements when all their secondary attacks have an inherent taunt effect?
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Originally Posted by Postagulous
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Understood, but doing greater damage also increases your Threat rating; I'd argue that fully slotting attacks for damage is a better use of slots. We occasionally see new players come in to the tanker forum that underslot attacks or slot them with Taunt sets only, thinking that's what they're "supposed" to do as a tank, so I'm concerned that talking about slotting attacks with Taunt encourages that sort of thinking.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Taunt enhancements increase duration. Duration of the taunt directly correlates with the effectiveness of the taunt on your Threat rating for the AI. (The Threat equation includes TauntDurationRemaining * 1000.)
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Besides, wouldn't it be a lot more efficient to slot a tanker's Taunt aura with Taunt duration enhancements rather than individual attacks? Generally the Taunt aura has a much stronger taunt effect than Gauntlet, plus it hits a lot more targets than most attacks.
My Characters
Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012
I usually slot my attacks on my tank with one taunt, if there's room. I don't bother trying to slot damage to increase threat rating when there's no way I'm going to out-damage a blaster or scrapper.
Edit: Oh, and as for my play style... I take taunt eventually, but don't find it as critical as I'll use punch-voke to control aggro early on.
Later I'll take taunt as it allows me to manage a melee from the middle of it all.. If there are some stragglers that are peeling off and attacking other teammates I'll throw a taunt their way to bring them back to me.
Test Subject 42 - lvl 50 Sp/DA Scrapper
Oku No Te - lvl 50 MA/SR Scrapper
Borg Master - lvl 24 Bots/traps MM
Pinnacle
Nyghtfyre - lvl 50 DM/SR Scrapper
Champion
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Damage does contribute to Threat, but nowhere nearly as much as Taunt does. (However, read through the rest of my post to see my opinion on underslotting damage.)|
Originally Posted by Finduilas
Understood, but doing greater damage also increases your Threat rating; I'd argue that fully slotting attacks for damage is a better use of slots.
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Originally Posted by Finduilas
Generally the Taunt aura has a much stronger taunt effect than Gauntlet, plus it hits a lot more targets than most attacks.
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So no, the taunt auras do not generally have a stronger Taunt effect; only Invincibility and AAO do.
However, you are partially correct: the taunt auras can hit 10 targets at a time, while Gauntlet can only hit 5 (and pokevoke can only hit 1). Invincibility and AAO have an activation period of 1s, so you have to consistently hit 2 groups of 5 targets twice each with your attacks in that time frame in order to match them*. RttC has an activation period of 1s, but it's less than 10% as powerful as the other auras and attacks. The other auras have an activation period of 2s.
I absolutely agree that it's not a good idea to underslot damage specifically for the purpose of slotting taunt in your attacks, but more because slotting damage helps both team and solo play, making everything go by faster (and making you need to endure less damage), than because the auras are so much more effective (they aren't necessarily more effective than the attacks, and can be worse especially for Willpower).
* Or rather, as many targets as are being affected by the aura, twice in the same time frame.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Hmnn guess I could take Taunt but then again meh to be honest I Wont,
does that make selfish becouse I don't bend to whim's and demands of
others?
Does not taking Taunt make me a bad player and made my Tank usless?
My answer is Nope, I could ask how can those who call me selfish be
selfish themselves by trying to force me to play how THEY Want me to
play and How THEY think I should do things.
How can I have made my character usless by not following social norm it
like saying Defenders that can't heal are useless even if they can De-Buffs
the enemies to allow you to kick their rears more easily so you don't even
need to be healed.
This is not World of Warcraft, you can build your characters to do things
out side of what some or most would use them for and as long a syour
having fun doing so then that is all that matter's, after all what is the
point of a Game if you don't enjoy it?...So NO!...I wont be made to follow
how other think I should do things, ye sI wil ask advice on thing and take
on board that advice but don't tell me what I can and can not do!
If you want to make a tauntless Tank then to those contemplating that
go right ahead, do what feels right for YOU and is fun for YOU to play!
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Okay, and my personal experience is different. And if we're flashing our vet badges, I have more than you. As if that mattered.
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Originally Posted by Stardrive
HOWEVER... My pesonal experience with tauntless tanks has (and I'm a 54 month veteran at this point) that they just CANNOT hold aggro the same as a tank with it.
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Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
And even if they can't hold it the same...so what? They can hold it adequately.
Dec out.
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Most of my defenders can make blasters and other defenders into adequate/supreme tanks. *gets happy shivers down her spine* |
Originally Posted by Decorum
And even if they can't hold it the same...so what? They can hold it adequately.
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One of my defenders *can* tank (and *has* tanked) due to close to soft-cap defense numbers (yay force fields and pool powers and set bonuses!).
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
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Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Yup. Frankly, anyone who's saying it's "required" is likely more a victim of thinking their play style is "the best" or "the right" way. And they'd be wrong. It's just "their way".
Dec out.
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Even though I agree with you completely, I can't help but point out that being able to withstand damage is not the same thing as holding agro. |
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
Most of my defenders can make blasters and other defenders into adequate/supreme tanks. *gets happy shivers down her spine*
One of my defenders *can* tank (and *has* tanked) due to close to soft-cap defense numbers (yay force fields and pool powers and set bonuses!). |
To stay on topic, we might want to discuss whether or not you would grab the Provoke power if you planned on tanking most of the time. Would it be more helpful to you and/or your team, or not? hehe
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I can't help but point out that the OP didn't ask about holding aggro. The OP asked about whether Taunt is a "requirement", "critical". Considering she doesn't get Taunt in her powersets, and considering the pathetic version I would have to dig deep into the Presence pool for my defender to get, I would have to say *NO*. She *does* tank... she has most of the baddies focused on her. That's what tanking means. That's what I said she did.
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Originally Posted by Master-Blade
Even though I agree with you completely, I can't help but point out that being able to withstand damage is not the same thing as holding agro.
To stay on topic, we might want to discuss whether or not you would grab the Provoke power if you planned on tanking most of the time. Would it be more helpful to you and/or your team, or not? hehe |
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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I guess it all boils down to your interpretation of:|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
I can't help but point out that the OP didn't ask about holding aggro.
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Originally Posted by thgebull0425
I still rush in and draw aggro that way, but don't pull it in battle. Thoughts?
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I, personally, might take Provoke if I was doing that. But that would be because of the "loss" of Gauntlet, so it doesn't really apply to tanks.
Dec out.
Alright guys... As I said last time, I can give those on the other side that some taunt auras do better than others. I'm also one of the first to admit there's multiple ways of going about things.
After all EVERY tanker attack does a small degree of taunt.
I'm still a big believer in building for your AT's role however. Some of the things that have been said in this thread completely ignore the fact that a major part of a Tanker AT's role is grab and hold aggro, NOT simply absorb damage.
If survivability was all there was to it, there would be ZERO need for Tankers. A well built scrapper properly played is every bit as survivable as most tanks. Likewise, as was mentioned above by others, Defenders can be built up well enough to have good survivability.
I have a Kin/Rad defender with capped Resistance to Smashing and Lethal and modest resist and defense otherwise. Between that and her snipe, she does a better job of pulling Generals on the ITF than most tanks I've worked with.
BUT... When I lead them back to the group on the other side of the river and some blaster that's built solely for damage draws aggro with a huge damage attack of their own, can my defender pull that aggro'ed +3 EB Minotaur back off of that blaster? Nope, not at all. Without a tank with a strong ability to taunt, that blaster is LIKELY going to either be roadkill or backpedalling severely and pulling the mob apart and maybe aggroing other mobs in the process.
OK, granted, if the entire team is purpled out 50s, its probbly not an issue. Lets be real though, that's not always the case. It's usually the lowbie on the team that suffers for it too.
Yeah I know... Hold his fire and learn not to draw the aggro, right? That always seems to be the answer. THAT is exactly a blaster's job however. A smart blaster has some defense built in and learns to maintain distance well also. BUT, why should the blaster be handicapped in his damage output because the tank isn't built to do his job properly? That makes the whole team's performance suffer.
As I admitted in my last post, I am biased here. But it's all from first hand experience. I have yet to team with any tauntless tank that could hold aggro properly when a high DPS character on the team went to town on a baddie. All my personal experience has been is arrogant Scrankers who build solely for damage and their own survivability, and think that's ALL there is to being a Main Tank. I've had too many toons suffer WAY too much debt from it also.
I have yet to team with a Fire/Fire tank (for example) that has a Taunt Enhance or two in their taunt aura and maybe a taunt or two in one of their attacks to offset the lack of a taunt. I KNOW somebody will post after me and say taunt enhances aren't even needed either, especially with Fire Tanks.
I believe you can make an EFFECTIVE Tank without Taunt, IF you slot properly. I have yet to see one though, and based on my experiences I do not belive you can make an OUTSTANDING Tank without Taunt.
And as a side note, I have nothing against Scrankers either... UNTIL they try to assert they're a capable main tank. Off tank, definitely. Scrapper wannabe? Hell yes, all day long. MAIN tank that can keep Ghost Widow from Soul Storming my support toon on a STF though? Nope.
Show me and I'll believe. I'm open to that much.
Let me give you all one last comparison to Everquest 2. It's a bit off due to the different nature of the game but the general idea is still valid. There are Epics in that game and many others. Baddies that make +4 AVs or GMs look like wimps. Likewise the mobs can get bigger too. I've seen expert guilds in other games that have had 2 tanks on a team and it's gawdawful scarey how effective those teams can be even against Epics with multiple mobs around them. Both tank types have properly slotted taunts though and are practiced at peeling all or some of the aggro off of each other (and the rest of the team). It lets the DPS types do their thing and the healers heal one tank while the other has peeled the aggro.
NOTHING in those games can stand up to a team that can function like that. You don't even need uber equipment. It's just everybody knowing their function and living up to it.
As for those of you on the other side of the argument... Again, I'm open to the possibility but have yet to see it. My sincere suggestion is that if you want your view to be more widely accepted, show how you do it instead of bashing us doubters as tools and not worth teaming with.
We're doubters not because we think you're stupid, it's because we've been burned by too many people in your camp that are giving the capable ones among you a bad rap.
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And here is the disconnect. Your role is not imposed on you by the game. It's what you CHOOSE to make it. Some tanks choose to be 'heavy scrappers'. This is acceptable.|
Originally Posted by Stardrive
I'm still a big believer in building for your AT's role however. Some of the things that have been said in this thread completely ignore the fact that a major part of a Tanker AT's role is grab and hold aggro, NOT simply absorb damage.
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If someone CHOOSES to tank for large teams at high difficulty settings, they should build accordingly. This would include taking Taunt. If someone CHOOSES to play their tank in a duo or small teams only, they really don't need Taunt.
They should build for the role that they CHOOSE.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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Of course it is. It imposes the "having fun" rule. |
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Your role is not imposed on you by the game.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Originally Posted by Ironblade
And here is the disconnect. Your role is not imposed on you by the game. It's what you CHOOSE to make it. Some tanks choose to be 'heavy scrappers'. This is acceptable.
If someone CHOOSES to tank for large teams at high difficulty settings, they should build accordingly. This would include taking Taunt. If someone CHOOSES to play their tank in a duo or small teams only, they really don't need Taunt. They should build for the role that they CHOOSE. |
You're ignoring what I said about Scrankers about 2/3 down my post.
I have no issue with people building to play heavy scrappers or off tanks. You're completely right about freedom of choice, so I'll admit to poor wording there. *I* generally do build to the AT's intended purpose however. A well built scrapper is just as or almost as survivable as a Scranker, and has better DPS, so I don't bother with Scrankers. That's ME though.
MY (earlier) point is DO NOT come to me with your heavy scrapper and pass yourself off as being able to shield the rest of my team from Ghost Widow and Black Scorpion at the same time on the last mission of a STF. Even more so, do not get pissed off at the rest of the team when we think you're an idiot for not doing the job you presented yourself as there for.
I run with people who play Scrankers all the time. They make great Melee specialists and even decent off tanks. THAT is NOT a main tank for a full team on a heavy duty Task Force however. In short, build to whatever role you want, BUT play the role you build to.
MY beef, and I'd wager the beef of everybody else on my side of this argument, is we're tired of "Heavy Scrappers" (Scrankers) passing themselves off as Tanks and getting our teams face planted repeatedly. When I look for a Main Tank to hold aggro with Rommie at the end of an ITF, that's EXACTLY what I expect him to do.
On the flip side, you tell me your Tank IS a Scranker before that ITF starts, and I can put you in a "scrapper" or off tank role, AND YOU STICK TO THAT ROLE, I can build a better team with a proper main tank. The team will succeed easier, and I'm going to have alot more respect for you as a player.
Even with all that said... I'm STILL open to the idea that a Tauntless tank MIGHT be able to fill such a true MAIN Tank role. In 5 years of playing I have yet to see it however. I will happily admit to seeing it if somebody can show me
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Well, technically, there *IS* zero "need" for Tankers. There's also zero "need" for Scrappers, Controllers, Blasters, Defenders, PBs, WSs, Brutes, Stalkers, Corruptors, Dominators, Masterminds, Widows, and Soldiers.|
Originally Posted by Stardrive
If survivability was all there was to it, there would be ZERO need for Tankers.
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Nothing in this game, other than Reichsman TF/SF tricks, hinges on having a particular archetype to fill a particular role. Anyone that can do that role can do it, without regard to archetype.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
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Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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If what they're saying is true that you can't be a good player without this one power, that means the game is designed badly and you shouldn't play it. Luckily, that's not true with this game so what they say is patently false.
I have taunt on a few of my tankers and my 50 brute took it at 49 (because it was the only power I could think of to take) but on her next respec, it's gone. I'd rather take Stun or a second travel power (it's bound to be more universally useful). I typically take taunt on my tankers in the early levels and often drop it when I respec in the 30s. But then, my tanks are built to be self-sufficient, not beholden to teams (much like most of my other characters).
@Remianen / @Remianen Too
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