Change to AV scaling in the 6/8 Patch
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-06-14 14:46 in Mission Architect
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Sure they will. Any time now. Real Soon™ in fact. Well... After they get around to fixing PvP, so they can fix Base Raids, so they can fix Items of Power, so they can fix Cathedral of Pain, which can't take priority over fixing critical bugs, and then there's those other quality of life issues, and they've just *got* to keep cranking out new content (which will also have issues to be addressed), because who wants them to actually just *fix* things...|
Originally Posted by Necrotron_RO
If will come, ...eventually. They've promised as much. It's just one of those things they unfortunetly can't/haven't been able to get published yet, and we have to wait.
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Nah, let's face it. As much as the dev team for this game rocks in so many ways, the philosophy is to get any given feature to 95% done and move on to the next. And while we're always promised that they'll come back and get that last 5%, they just never mention that it takes them 3 years in which to do so.
It's a sloppy design philosophy and the accumulation of 6 years' worth is showing through, cause .95*.95*.95... and so on, is a lot less than .95.
But don't worry! Everybody will be so taken with Going Rogue and all the new stuff after that that they won't care!
[/rant]
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Oh lord, the Death Shaman no-xp Husk pets. That's one of those old proofs that Jack never played this game. Nobody was farming death shaman popped minions for ENDLESS LEET MINION XPZ. People were farming Rikti monkeys in Crey's Folly for LEET NEARLY MINION XPZ with their burn tankers (and I think the Swarms in Eden and The Hive were also a good target. Stupid bumble bees). Seriously, drop a burn 10 or 15 of 'em died in a blink as you were already leaping to another rooftop to burn another swarm of monkehs. Oldschool PL, represent!| Can you imagine if the Summoned Husks from Death Shamans were actually to give xp in a direct ratio to the way they actually deal and absorb damage? The game would self-destruct from the horrible imbalance of that equality. |
Dear Posi--make Death Shaman worth more XP due to the fact they're virtually guaranteed to pop two pets--or put the XP back on the pets! Frankly, I just skip defeating the stupid zombies the Death shaman pop in the instances where I decide to go do some old story content that uses BP. Why should I? Even in defeat alls summoned husks don't count as required defeats.
I'm still waiting for the fix to the screw up that messed up xp for an arc where you defeat an object. You know, the one that was promised "with i17" then put back to "with GR" and hasn't been heard of since.
AE could have been great but instead the exploits got ignored with farms left up for weeks. So you piecemeal made changes - which don't effect real farmers anyway. Then it got really 'fixed' by hitting every non farm arc. You know; rescue a non-buffing/non-fighting hostage or defeat an object affecting xp. Know what a mission is without stuff like that? A kill-all farm.
Now every time you touch it, it breaks more arcs which are left up. Devs Choice arcs which aren't that good. The best arcs I played weren't Devs Choices but they're hard to find with all the broken stuff. Even the fact the AE accolade can't be used in the base shows how little thought went into it.
Should clear every arc out. Every one. (Oh and warn people first unlike the deleting email fiasco.) Sort out your issues so it is a genuine alternative to missions - the way it was supposed to be - without players being penalized for playing arcs. Then set it back up.
And for the love of mike, let me take that AE channel out of my list of subscribed channels. It should be like base builders or server channels - optional for those who want to use it.
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Really?!
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
You know, the one that was promised "with i17" then put back to "with GR" and hasn't been heard of since.
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Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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My issue is that we have so many speedy "exploit fixes" -- reward reductions viewed by the devs as so super secret that they're fast-tracked to live with no patch notes, player testing, or feedback -- but we have to wait issues for reward refinements that actually benefit real story arcs.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Your complaint should then be that the devs should find better ways to deal with the exploits, not ignore them. And that complaint would be entirely valid.
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The new custom power selection system, for example, was a nice improvement over "no sniper-damage Shuriken, no XP", but how long did we have to wait for that? How long are we going to have to wait for Rescue Captives and Non-Combat Allies from leeching XP? Even on Devs' Choice arcs? Why isn't that fix fast-tracked? Isn't that at least as reward-distorting as the big zombie farms?
Simply put, the policy on "exploits" is a failure on two fronts. First, fast-tracking the fixes without patch notes, testing, or feedback doesn't keep them the targeted reward distortions secret. Everyone in Atlas Park AE on every server already knows about them. Second, it breaks good arcs, both known (Devs' Choice) and unknown. The devs--and forum mods, too--need to stop throwing away the valuable testing and feedback of players in this frivolous pursuit of secrecy.
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This is the first exploit fix that I recall had no patch notes. So I'm writing that off as the usual patch note oversight, not that those aren't common with AE changes in general.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
My issue is that we have so many speedy "exploit fixes" -- reward reductions viewed by the devs as so super secret that they're fast-tracked to live with no patch notes, player testing, or feedback -- but we have to wait issues for reward refinements that actually benefit real story arcs.
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Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Ok, while I would typically join in on the ranting... I don't have time (late to work as it is), so I'll just ask...
Just to make sure I'm right, if I have an AV in a mission, say a renamed Hro'Drotz, for example, as long as I haven't changed his scaling at all, he'll still spawn exactly as he has been before, correct? Or will he be different, too, and should I test him?
The SOLUS Foundation - a Liberty and Pinnacle SG
"The Consequences of War" - Arcs # 227331 and 241496
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This times 1000. I haven't done MA in ages because there are so many clones-of-clones-of-clones of old exploit farms. |
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
And now we've got another generation of useless exploit farm arcs, the majority of which will never be deleted, cluttering up the MA. Time to reiterate the request for some kind of purge mechanism to hide arcs that nobody wants to see anymore.
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Please, please, devs, put in a feature that has old missions auto-unpublish after 120 days. You can email the player's global at the 90 day mark and say "Misson such-and-so is going to automatically unpublish in 30 days unless you republish it." MA authors who cared about their missions would take the few minutes to republish, but most of the old farms would quietly fade away.
IMO that would be one of the best things to happen to MA; clear the chaff.
Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.
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And while you're at it please make the friggin Malta auto-turrets despawn upon defeat of the summoner like they used to back in, what was it, issue 3? I used to just leave them behind as well but now that they can follow you to the next spawn it just gets too damn annoying.|
Originally Posted by Iannis
Oh lord, the Death Shaman no-xp Husk pets. That's one of those old proofs that Jack never played this game. Nobody was farming death shaman popped minions for ENDLESS LEET MINION XPZ. People were farming Rikti monkeys in Crey's Folly for LEET NEARLY MINION XPZ with their burn tankers (and I think the Swarms in Eden and The Hive were also a good target. Stupid bumble bees). Seriously, drop a burn 10 or 15 of 'em died in a blink as you were already leaping to another rooftop to burn another swarm of monkehs. Oldschool PL, represent!
Dear Posi--make Death Shaman worth more XP due to the fact they're virtually guaranteed to pop two pets--or put the XP back on the pets! Frankly, I just skip defeating the stupid zombies the Death shaman pop in the instances where I decide to go do some old story content that uses BP. Why should I? Even in defeat alls summoned husks don't count as required defeats. |
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
And for the love of mike, let me take that AE channel out of my list of subscribed channels. It should be like base builders or server channels - optional for those who want to use it.
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Or in other words: 90% of everything is crud and the lack of gating on fan fiction publishing (which is essentially what the AE is) makes that 90% very visible.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
I saw a lot of 1,2,4, 7, 9 and 10 - none of which the devs can stop- when my SG decided to try a "We will level only in AE" group and I somehow ended up talent scout. (we made it to about level 35-ish.) Now I didn't actually PLAY the really illiterate ones for the same reason I didn't play the obvious farms or the jedi love fests, but there were a lot that I tried which were just poor storytelling. (I lowered my estimate from 80% to 50% after considering how very many failed for "12 webgrens stacked on me" or "stalker kill-alls" or "omnistuns".There are 50 ways to turn a good story into a terrible mission, but there are 5000 ways to not start with a good story.)
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From the instant resources became available to implement it? About six months from the moment work began until it was released in I17. Although some of the delay was due to synchronizing with I17: it was originally intended to be a Going Rogue feature, then was shifted into I17 when the I17 code branch was opened, but was actually more or less completed a couple months before I17 went live. Given the logistics of how development works, from inception to internal QA to testing to live, the minimum time it would take to add a feature of that magnitude that was scheduled for a major build (as opposed to a patch to an issue) that was theoretically implemented instantly is about four months. |
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
The new custom power selection system, for example, was a nice improvement over "no sniper-damage Shuriken, no XP", but how long did we have to wait for that?
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Patches can happen faster, but major features or redesigns cannot.
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| How long are we going to have to wait for Rescue Captives and Non-Combat Allies from leeching XP? Even on Devs' Choice arcs? Why isn't that fix fast-tracked? Isn't that at least as reward-distorting as the big zombie farms? |
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I wasn't even aware GR was out yet myself!|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
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Where are those patch notes?
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They stated they have a fix for that slotted for Going Rogue. Yes, it's frustrating to wait so long for certain fixes, heck, TF difficulty changes made several members of our coalition leave for months till they were repaired. If it's a determinant enough of a factor on players' enjoyment of the game, they can simply leave. If AE was what I wanted to do everyday, I would have left like those who left over easy TFs. Luckily, it's not, it's just a 'feature' I'd like to have, but mostly ignore exists at the moment.|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
How long are we going to have to wait for Rescue Captives and Non-Combat Allies from leeching XP? Even on Devs' Choice arcs? Why isn't that fix fast-tracked? Isn't that at least as reward-distorting as the big zombie farms?
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Exploit fixes are priority I suspect because A) they destroy the leveling curve (which destroys the time to level model of MMoGs, thus potentially decreasing revenue as players complete their 'projects' faster and get bored and leave) and B) they put a negative connotation on the AE in general. Also, most of the exploit fixes have been 'easy' fixes to create, whereas the repair fixes seem to require more 'back end' changes.
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Originally Posted by Iannis
Dear Posi--make Death Shaman worth more XP due to the fact they're virtually guaranteed to pop two pets--or put the XP back on the pets!
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Current Team Project: Pending
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At least make the summon interruptible, like the comm officer and Malta Engineer summons are.|
Originally Posted by Iannis
Dear Posi--make Death Shaman worth more XP due to the fact they're virtually guaranteed to pop two pets--or put the XP back on the pets! Frankly, I just skip defeating the stupid zombies the Death shaman pop in the instances where I decide to go do some old story content that uses BP. Why should I? Even in defeat alls summoned husks don't count as required defeats.
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Originally Posted by Capa_Devans
And for the love of mike, let me take that AE channel out of my list of subscribed channels. It should be like base builders or server channels - optional for those who want to use it.
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Originally Posted by Lazarus
And while you're at it please make the friggin Malta auto-turrets despawn upon defeat of the summoner like they used to back in, what was it, issue 3? I used to just leave them behind as well but now that they can follow you to the next spawn it just gets too damn annoying.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I think your legitimate question got lost in the shuffle. If you use him within his normal level range (probably 35+) he should be fine. But there is a minimum level he will not spawn below, so if you write a low-level arc and use him in it, he will be too high level and the mission will be unwinnable.|
Originally Posted by Dalghryn
Ok, while I would typically join in on the ranting... I don't have time (late to work as it is), so I'll just ask...
Just to make sure I'm right, if I have an AV in a mission, say a renamed Hro'Drotz, for example, as long as I haven't changed his scaling at all, he'll still spawn exactly as he has been before, correct? Or will he be different, too, and should I test him? |
I recommend you test him unless your mission is level 50.
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
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Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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OMG dude, you so totally read my mind. This is EXACTLY how I feel about this game sometimes. It is so damn annoying. I feel a piece of mind knowing someone else out there feels exactly like i do. AHHHHH
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Originally Posted by Starjammer
Sure they will. Any time now. Real Soon™ in fact. Well... After they get around to fixing PvP, so they can fix Base Raids, so they can fix Items of Power, so they can fix Cathedral of Pain, which can't take priority over fixing critical bugs, and then there's those other quality of life issues, and they've just *got* to keep cranking out new content (which will also have issues to be addressed), because who wants them to actually just *fix* things...
Nah, let's face it. As much as the dev team for this game rocks in so many ways, the philosophy is to get any given feature to 95% done and move on to the next. And while we're always promised that they'll come back and get that last 5%, they just never mention that it takes them 3 years in which to do so. It's a sloppy design philosophy and the accumulation of 6 years' worth is showing through, cause .95*.95*.95... and so on, is a lot less than .95. But don't worry! Everybody will be so taken with Going Rogue and all the new stuff after that that they won't care! [/rant] |
Question: how will this work on custom critter AVs? By default, any custom critter spawns from 1-54.
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"At what point do we say, 'You're mucking with our myths'?" - Harlan Ellison
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They are not affected as their minimum level goes all the way down to 1.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Question: how will this work on custom critter AVs? By default, any custom critter spawns from 1-54.
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I've got a better idea:|
Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
And now we've got another generation of useless exploit farm arcs, the majority of which will never be deleted, cluttering up the MA. Time to reiterate the request for some kind of purge mechanism to hide arcs that nobody wants to see anymore.
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If an arc is reported as an exploit, a GM checks it. If it actually is, Global Name X is given ONE (1) warning not to do it again and all of Global Name X's mission are deleted from the AE database.
If Global Name X is reported and verified of creating an ExMission/ExFarm a second time, all of Global Name X's mission are deleted from the AE database and then Global Name X's AE Slots are locked, creating basically a Perma-Ban from creating any more AE mission.
It may be a little bit of a headache for the GMs in the onset, but after a few weeks (and a few dozen AE bans) the smart exploiters will get the hint that NCSoft's not kidding about repercussions anymore and not make any more attempts, the dumb exploiters will be locked out, and most of the "garbage" missions will be swept away.
There, no more patches, nerfs and burned dev-hours just to plug holes that the majority of us a) won't look for and b) report as bugs if we do find them. In fact, at that point why not restore AE to it's initial state concerning scaling, xps and such. Let AE go back to being what it was supposed to be... a way for us to create and showcase new content for others to play.
((PS: And as an added bonus, many of those really well-done missions and arcs that were abandoned because some anti-Exploit nerf cored them as well might become playable again... just a thought.))
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I don't think that will solve the exploit problem. A bunch of people just make their farm missions and unpublish them when they are done for the day.
The GMs don't even check these complaints anyway. Remember when that farm mission got into the Hall of Fame and sat there for nearly a week before they finally removed it?
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Just a heads up, since finding this out came as a surprise to me. I've been playing several Devs Choice arcs with a scrapper I want to finish getting to level 50. Since I actually want the end of mission XP, I've been playing them on standard rewards, rather than tickets.|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
How long are we going to have to wait for Rescue Captives and Non-Combat Allies from leeching XP? Even on Devs' Choice arcs? Why isn't that fix fast-tracked? Isn't that at least as reward-distorting as the big zombie farms?
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Provided a Devs Choice arc is set to standard rewards, the ally XP nerf doesn't occur. Allies still leech XP by attacking foes, but I played several arcs with active allies (both combat and rescues) and there was no reduction in the XP value of anything - again, except for ally inflicted damage reducing things' XP values.
To be honest, I was also surprised to find that I was using my patrol XP normally too (i.e. for as long as I had blue bar, I was getting a 50% bonus to XP earned by defeated mobs).
I did notice that if you opted for ticket rewards instead, the ally XP nerf does work normally, and patrol XP is turned off.
Here's another odd thing I noticed about the ally XP nerf during the arcs I played where standard rewards were turned off (or not an option).
As everyone here probably knows (and if you didn't know this, you do now), all mobs in MA have their XP multiplier capped at 1 no matter what - even dev mobs. So, for example, a Vahzilok zombie normally has a multiplier of 1.1, but in MA that caps to 1. Multipliers less than 1 work normally (so a level 45 Family mob is still 0.4).
Apparently the ally nerf works as a second multiplier acting on the original mob XP multiplier. So if you've got a mission will allies (enough to get a multiplier of 0.9, say), and you are fighting the Vahzilok, zombies will be worth 1.1 * 0.9 = 0.99, or 99% a standard minion's XP. The moment the multiplier tops 1, though, it is still capped at 1. So, for example, a Clockwork in this case would be worth 1.2 * 0.9 = 1.08, which caps to 1 (100% XP).
I'm not suggesting that using mobs with XP multipliers is a fix to the ally nerf. But it's useful to know that if you do happen to have an arc where one of the missions happened to be using mobs that would normally have XP bonuses, and there were only a few allies, the mission will end up not being hit much by the nerf, if at all.
M.A. Arcs
Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice!
)Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)
I would like to suggest a quick re-fix of this fix.
Make the AVs and EBs scale down as before but remove their rewards if they end up lower than their lowest level range.
This would help preserve existing legitimate missions and we won't have to scramble to fix our arcs, or possibly unpublish them because they need certain characters that we can't remake in the critter editor.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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Totally agree.|
Originally Posted by Sister_Twelve
Ah, well, it seems as though their focus will continue to be to tilt at the exploiter windmill instead of doing things that might increase MA's popularity again. This would have been the greatest tool in the history of online gaming for the player population. Now, unfortunately, it is sadly dead.
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Please make it just convert them to EBs. I don't even plan to use lower level AVs, but these restrictions keep getting more draconian, more quick-fix, invading more aspects they shouldn't (like the nerf to escorts inexplicably including civilian rescues) and less accompanied by logical workarounds. I totally understand that these things (like the complex custom exp system in i17) take development, but an EB conversion or even nerf to low level AV exp, rather than simple bans, would do much to show that tilting at the exploiter windmill, as she called it, is not completely more important than authoring. I'd just like to see more finesse in these things.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
Seriously though, agree 100%. The mission listings are a disgrace. I find you either know the # or global of the arc you are seeking or why bother. And knowing that information eliminates the use of the listings in the first place, which further shows how junky and cluttered they are.