Fighting Pool Facelift
By
Biospark,
Posted on: 2010-05-21 22:17 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Boxing is apparently using the same animation as Jab, which got an alternate animation. Kick doesn't seem particularly short, either. The real problem, I'd say, is that they haven't been able to make pool powers customisable at all yet. I believe many people have expressed desires to change colours on travel powers, among other things.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
Unfortunately, the current animations are so short that both powers would have to be "revamped" a bit to allow for other animations as options.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Okay, Bio, I hate to poke holes in ideas, because I do like them, but you miss the point of Pool Powers.
Pool Powers are deliberately set to be worse than Primary or Secondary powers with similar effects, effectively becoming a Tertiary Pool.
The worst Smashing / Lethal resistance power is found on Dark Armor / Fire Armor, which in it's Scrapper / Brute configuration offers only offer 22.5% resistance. The Tank Version offers 30% resistance, which is about a 25% difference. Another 7.5% off is 15%, which is about where Tough can be slotted to on SO's.
Weave is a bit harder to calculate since no straight Defense set offers a defense to everything. Powersets that offer a defense to all component, such as Dark Armor offer the same defense percentages as the pool powers. However, where-as Cloak Of Darkness has a base endurance pull-down of .26/s, Weave has a pull down of .32/s, which is intentionally worse to offset having the same percentage values.
In the same way, Kick and Boxing are intentionally weaker than similar punches, such as Energy Punch.
So, unfortantly, a rework of what the powers do isn't in the cards. Kick isn't going to get a damage boost, and the developers aren't going to change the powers to passive. If the developers were to add a power to offer resistance to everything but smash / lethal, it'd likely carry the same endurance cost, but be set a base 7.5% resistance.
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Beyond that, I suspect that whenever the engine guys have time to work on Pool Power custimation, alternate animations would almost certianly be included.
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About the only outright change I think that would be considered by the developers for inclusion would be a change to make boxing and kick work like brawl and no longer cause redraw of power animations or weapons.
However, I believe that much like the power customization for ALL Pool Powers, not just select pool powers, BaB's is working with the coders to put together a global solution for redraw, rather than patching redraw set-by-set.
I think the trouble is that Air Superiority is a better combat pick than boxing or kick, imo.
Boxing and Kick are useless filler. on my Elec armour tank, Tough was my aim so taking one not remotely useful power to get there wasnt much of a problem. But on defence based guys, aiming to get weave can seem a bit of a step too far, though I think tough is good in it's own right even capping your defence, having a decent resistance to the two most common damage types in the game arnt that bad.
Personally I would say that the Fighting Pool has the poorest choice of filler powers any other pool has to offer.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
[*]Watching out for the Spinning Disco Portal of D00M!*
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Hello Je_Saist,
Yeah, I understand that power pools are deliberately less effective than Primary/Secondarries. One thing though, you compared the worst S/L Toggles unenhanced values to a fully slotted Tough. Currently Tough is roughly HALF the base value of each AT's comparable Shield (if they have one). Thats more than a little less effective, thats a seriously underpowered toggle for ANY AT.
Keeping them toggles would be fine by the way. Its just my opinion that the endurance drain for weave is balanced due to it being +def and being more universal to survival, while Tough is very expensive for a pretty minor amount of overall survival. As I said, I only take tough as a placeholder for a Unique IO and/or to get Weave. This may be balanced to the DEV viewpoint, but its not very good for making each power have a purpose for its own existence. I could be wrong, but I think most players view tough in the same way that I do, or in the case of Tankers, take it to beef up their existing Toggles for S/L. Again, this does not fit with a generic-oriented power, to be used mostly to supplement an AT that already has the best values in that resist.
Sorry for the ramble. I hope that made some kind of sense.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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This is one of the major reasons I like the idea of creating a Dual-pathway for the pools (just as the Ancillary powers are currently implemented). Moving the two attacks to one channel and adding an energy resist power to couple with Tough allows some flexibility in choices. My blaster seeking Weave could skip a useless attack, while my controller that wishes to fill in an attack chain could still choose an attack if desired.
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Originally Posted by Mega_Jamie
I think the trouble is that Air Superiority is a better combat pick than boxing or kick, imo.
Boxing and Kick are useless filler. on my Elec armour tank, Tough was my aim so taking one not remotely useful power to get there wasnt much of a problem. But on defence based guys, aiming to get weave can seem a bit of a step too far, though I think tough is good in it's own right even capping your defence, having a decent resistance to the two most common damage types in the game arnt that bad. Personally I would say that the Fighting Pool has the poorest choice of filler powers any other pool has to offer. |
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Personally, I have always found the pool powers to be rather poorly structured. The pools were designed around very vague concepts, and do not mesh particularly well mechanically. I mean, the Flight pool has a melee attack? If you want to increase your character's survivability, you are forced to choose an inferior melee attack? Don't even get me started on the worst pool of them all: Fitness. Talk about power taxation, not a single one of the Fitness powers is "fun" they are all basically just passive stat bonuses. The only reason anybody takes them is to get Stamina, a pool power that is basically required for most builds in order to have fun and not be hitting Rest every time it refreshes. This is a textbook example of how NOT to design modular character abilities: make a boring, passive ability that almost every character will feel they need, then make it require prerequisites that most people wouldn't want, otherwise.
I think the pools really should have been grouped by their mechanical effects, which would help inform new players as to which powers they should look at when building a character. That's basically what they were going for when they built the ATs, so why do the pools seem like they were grouped using post-it notes and a dartboard?
Regardless of how feasible or needed this is, it would be awesome to be able to slot a Steadfast +Def in SR with only a single pool pick.
I don't think the OPs suggestion is by any means bad. I don't pretend to be a numbers guru, so I won't even go there. But I do agree that the locked in choices are, in both the APPs and EPPs/PPPs, somewhat annoying. The travel powers I can understand at least. But, for example, weapons mastery on scrappers forces you to pick a number of semi-par powers before you get to thingsl ike Shuriken, which is what I am actually after.
Tbh, I feel that EPP/PPPs should either unlock earlier or have only a two tier system, to allow people to actaully pick the powers they actaully want out of them. After all, wasn't that the reason why the Devs added more to certain pools, to make sure people actually wanted to at least investigate them, if not pick from them?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Fighting is already so good I take it on more than half my characters.
In game-mechanical terms that suggests it's balanced-at-least. . .
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
This is in no means a yea/ nay to your idea Bio, but your numbers for the passive resists are too high really. Power Pool choices should not be better than Primary or Secondary set choices. Energy Aura has 2 passive resist powers with base stats of 7.5 to smashing/ lethal and 9.38 to E/N/F/C. Therefore passives in Fighting would have to have base stats of half or less of those numbers then the variable AT modifiers can be taken into account.
Still I wouldn't mind seeing a reworking of Power pools to include a 5th power and a new tier system for power selection.
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Yeah I am certain we would never see 10% passive resist, despite the fact it would not be overpowered, but the main idea is to add a 5th power and restructure so that you can skip the attacks if desired.|
Originally Posted by Mr_Body
This is in no means a yea/ nay to your idea Bio, but your numbers for the passive resists are too high really. Power Pool choices should not be better than Primary or Secondary set choices. Energy Aura has 2 passive resist powers with base stats of 7.5 to smashing/ lethal and 9.38 to E/N/F/C. Therefore passives in Fighting would have to have base stats of half or less of those numbers then the variable AT modifiers can be taken into account.
Still I wouldn't mind seeing a reworking of Power pools to include a 5th power and a new tier system for power selection. |
Another thought on numbers was to have Hardiness as a 5%(approx) passive resist to all types (except PSI) and then leave Tough as is on the second tier as a toggle but add in another 5% E/N/F/C to Tough. This way you get the extra resists to improve tough and the pool without adding a 3rd toggle.
Thanks everyone for the feedback
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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This.|
Originally Posted by The_Cheeseman
Personally, I have always found the pool powers to be rather poorly structured. The pools were designed around very vague concepts, and do not mesh particularly well mechanically. I mean, the Flight pool has a melee attack? If you want to increase your character's survivability, you are forced to choose an inferior melee attack? Don't even get me started on the worst pool of them all: Fitness. Talk about power taxation, not a single one of the Fitness powers is "fun" they are all basically just passive stat bonuses. The only reason anybody takes them is to get Stamina, a pool power that is basically required for most builds in order to have fun and not be hitting Rest every time it refreshes. This is a textbook example of how NOT to design modular character abilities: make a boring, passive ability that almost every character will feel they need, then make it require prerequisites that most people wouldn't want, otherwise.
I think the pools really should have been grouped by their mechanical effects, which would help inform new players as to which powers they should look at when building a character. That's basically what they were going for when they built the ATs, so why do the pools seem like they were grouped using post-it notes and a dartboard? |
I'm not going to get into the OP's suggestion, but the whole nature of power pools needs to be fixed. They're indisputably the most imbalanced powers in the game, some of them strong and some weak, and the unloking process could be better.
A game is not supposed to be some kind of... place where people enjoy themselves!
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Really? I had no idea that Tar Patch was grouped with Darkest Night because they have similar mechanical effect.s
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Originally Posted by The_Cheeseman
I think the pools really should have been grouped by their mechanical effects... That's basically what they were going for when they built the ATs
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Never read anything for certain regarding why the 5th powers were added to the Ancillary powers, since that was back when I was taking a 3 year break from CoX, but it makes sense that they could have done this to open up the choices. You get 2 choices at tier 1, then 2 choices at tier 2 and finally a Tier 3. I am no permutations expert but that is more flexibility than 2-1-1.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
.... Tbh, I feel that EPP/PPPs should either unlock earlier or have only a two tier system, to allow people to actaully pick the powers they actaully want out of them. After all, wasn't that the reason why the Devs added more to certain pools, to make sure people actually wanted to at least investigate them, if not pick from them?
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The pools should be re-analyzed to improve this flexibility and while their at it, some less-used or not-so-useful powers could be replaced or improved.
Here is another example of what should be fixed;
Presence Pool
Tier ONE: Choice of Challenge or Intimidate (Single Target powers, one fear, one taunt)
Tier TWO: Choice of Provoke or Invoke Panic (AoE versions of Taunt or Fear)
Tier THREE: something new and worth investing 2 prior picks
This is how I would attempt to sort out the Primary Pools
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Exactly ! The unlocking process can be improved a great deal by adding 1 more power and making an effort to make the choices more flexible. |
Originally Posted by ChaosExMachina
This.
I'm not going to get into the OP's suggestion, but the whole nature of power pools needs to be fixed. They're indisputably the most imbalanced powers in the game, some of them strong and some weak, and the unloking process could be better. |
And I completely agree that some pools are very strong and others very weak. Something has to be the best and worst in any array of choices, but they could all be given a facelift.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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The ATs were designed around creating a coherent theme for play, then the powers for each set in the AT were further sub-divided by theme. In your example, the Dark Miasma power set is a buff/debuff set. It is available to certain ATs whose role is to buff or debuff, such as defender, corrupter, or mastermind. The individual powers in a given set are not supposed to be mechanically identical, as long as the complete package fulfills the role that the set is meant to fill in the AT. Tar patch and darkest night are both debuffing powers (though tar patch also contains a strong control element, as much of Dark Miasma does), therefore they belong in a debuff set.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Really? I had no idea that Tar Patch was grouped with Darkest Night because they have similar mechanical effect.s
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On the other hand, the "fighting" pool really doesn't do much to inform players of its use. Obviously it is meant to make you better at fighting, but that is the purpose of almost every power in the game, so that really isn't terribly relevant. Also, the first two picks are both melee attacks, which are mostly worthless to many ATs (blasters, controllers, dominators, corrupters, etc.) and for those ATs that may get use out of them (scrappers, tankers, brutes, etc.) they are nearly always the worst attack that character has access to. In other words, they are a totally wasted power pick in the vast majority of builds, though they are required as prerequisites for two rather nice defensive powers that are useful to many ATs.
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Balanced doesn't mean well designed. Several of the pools - fitness, fighting, and to a lesser extent medicine - are designed with speedbump powers. You have a weak lead-in power with a reward of a latter power that is worth wasting an earlier pick for a lot of people. Fighting just happens to be the worst of these because the first pick is completely and utterly worthless for almost everyone.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Fighting is already so good I take it on more than half my characters.
In game-mechanical terms that suggests it's balanced-at-least. . . |
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Other than as an IO set bonus mule - which is why I have Absolute Amazement 5-slotted, or Kinetic Combat 4-slotted, in a power that doesn't even sit on my tray (Boxing).|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Balanced doesn't mean well designed. Several of the pools - fitness, fighting, and to a lesser extent medicine - are designed with speedbump powers. You have a weak lead-in power with a reward of a latter power that is worth wasting an earlier pick for a lot of people. Fighting just happens to be the worst of these because the first pick is completely and utterly worthless for almost everyone.
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Which is why I wouldn't say "almost everyone" - you can get utility out of them, but you have to look for it.
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Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.
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Originally Posted by Brillig
It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.
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I dont consider IO "mules" as a well-designed trade-off for getting deeper into a power pool.|
Originally Posted by Siolfir
Other than as an IO set bonus mule - which is why I have Absolute Amazement 5-slotted, or Kinetic Combat 4-slotted, in a power that doesn't even sit on my tray (Boxing).
Which is why I wouldn't say "almost everyone" - you can get utility out of them, but you have to look for it. |
But that is just my personal opinion. Boxing as a power is a decent pick for a Controller looking to build a single target attack chain. But other than that, its a low dps and un-attractive pick for most every character I have ever taken it for.
My Empath had it and used it as part of an early attack chain with Charged Bolts, Lightning Bolt, and Air Superiority. But this was mainly to shore up the weakness of electric blasts at low level and low levels of recharge. At some point, it was just too annoying to have a power that I never used and the character was redesigned around leadership instead of fighting.
So I guess I would agree with both of you in that it is "possible" to get mileage out of the Fighting Pool attacks, but at the end game for "most" players and builds, these attacks will NOT be used for their specific functions. They will be used for the secondary purpose of IO plans or "getting to Weave". I disagree with that state of affairs. But thats just me.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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I actually like the way the Fitness pool is designed. Swift and Hurdle are not "bad" choices as openers because every character needs to travel between missions and the two choices offered are well-suited and flexible enough for most every character (except Teleporters perhaps).|
Originally Posted by rsclark
Balanced doesn't mean well designed. Several of the pools - fitness, fighting, and to a lesser extent medicine - are designed with speedbump powers. You have a weak lead-in power with a reward of a latter power that is worth wasting an earlier pick for a lot of people. Fighting just happens to be the worst of these because the first pick is completely and utterly worthless for almost everyone.
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My personal thoughts on "Fitness" however is that it is too essential to most builds. I have seen many suggestions regarding how to "roll" these powers into every characters basic make-up (similar to rest and sprint), but the Devs have come out and said "NO" to this.
With that being said, "Fitness" is probably the BEST power pool design out there, because it provides its benefit completely in a "passive" way. Taking fitness puts ZERO burden on your character and that is a great "tertiary" design IMHO.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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The reason we got a fifth power was that they initially just flat out replaced a power in the choices. They then looked out the office window and saw the gathering of pissed off players with torches and pitchforks and decided, "You know, maybe we should just *add* the power instead of replacing ones people have already picked, slotted, and like." |
Originally Posted by Biospark
Never read anything for certain regarding why the 5th powers were added to the Ancillary powers, since that was back when I was taking a 3 year break from CoX, but it makes sense that they could have done this to open up the choices. You get 2 choices at tier 1, then 2 choices at tier 2 and finally a Tier 3. I am no permutations expert but that is more flexibility than 2-1-1.
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OK, perhaps they didn't look out the window, but the reaction on the beta forums when they did some of their replacements (such as removing my Dom's PPP AOE and replacing it which PFF, which I'd never take on that character, for instance) was very similar. Every choice they said "nobody would take" or "would be more useful if replaced," someone had.
It's the only time, recently, they've broken the "cottage rule" * - and, given the backpedal due to player reaction when beta'd, they have incontrovertible proof that it's a *lousy* idea to do, ever again.
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Originally Posted by Biospark
With that being said, "Fitness" is probably the BEST power pool design out there, because it provides its benefit completely in a "passive" way. Taking fitness puts ZERO burden on your character and that is a great "tertiary" design IMHO.
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*Cottage rule - they will not replace a power with one that does something completely different. The only time this has been broken and "stuck" was very shortly after game release, when fold space was removed and Singluarity added to Gravity Control. It's sometimes brought up with things like Energize, but that was something added to existing functionality, not a power replacement.
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Thanks for the response Memphis_Bill, I did not know how that all went down. One of the reasons I keep coming back to this game is that Developers actually listen to the fan base and are willing to correct things that are not "fun".|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
The reason we got a fifth power was that they initially just flat out replaced a power in the choices. They then looked out the office window and saw the gathering of pissed off players with torches and pitchforks and decided, "You know, maybe we should just *add* the power instead of replacing ones people have already picked, slotted, and like."
OK, perhaps they didn't look out the window, but the reaction on the beta forums when they did some of their replacements (such as removing my Dom's PPP AOE and replacing it which PFF, which I'd never take on that character, for instance) was very similar. Every choice they said "nobody would take" or "would be more useful if replaced," someone had. It's the only time, recently, they've broken the "cottage rule" * - and, given the backpedal due to player reaction when beta'd, they have incontrovertible proof that it's a *lousy* idea to do, ever again. Not quite true. it doesn't put zero burden on your character. No, it doesn't cost you END to run stamina, but it DOES cost you two power picks for the power that (generally) is seen to give the greatest benefit. *Cottage rule - they will not replace a power with one that does something completely different. The only time this has been broken and "stuck" was very shortly after game release, when fold space was removed and Singluarity added to Gravity Control. It's sometimes brought up with things like Energize, but that was something added to existing functionality, not a power replacement. |
I agree with you on Tier 3 power pools having an innate "cost/burden" being the power choice investment. This (in general) is not an issue if each prior pick has a benefit that is "worthy" at all levels and across all ATs. So I would call it the "cost" of getting Stamina instead of the "burden" of getting Stamina into your build.
"Boxing/Kick" OTOH are "burdens" for most builds or ATs.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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So in your world, "grouped by their mechanical effects" means one of: Ranged Damage, Melee Damage, Damage Reduction, Crowd Control, Pet Summoning, and Buff/Debuff? Those are pretty damned broad categories, and still don't quite cover the powersets and ATs we've got. And don't even start thinking about the Kheldians and the Soldiers of Arachnos.
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Originally Posted by The_Cheeseman
The ATs were designed around creating a coherent theme for play, then the powers for each set in the AT were further sub-divided by theme. In your example, the Dark Miasma power set is a buff/debuff set. It is available to certain ATs whose role is to buff or debuff, such as defender, corrupter, or mastermind. The individual powers in a given set are not supposed to be mechanically identical, as long as the complete package fulfills the role that the set is meant to fill in the AT. Tar patch and darkest night are both debuffing powers (though tar patch also contains a strong control element, as much of Dark Miasma does), therefore they belong in a debuff set.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I'm not going to say it's a bad idea.
What I will say is I doubt the passive +resist to all but Psi would be at 5%.
I'd say more likely 2% - 3%. This is basing Pool Powers against a close Defense Powers (High Pain Tolerance)
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Here is an idea for improving the Fighting Power Pool that I would like to share and get feedback on. Additionally, I am working on ideas for other Power Pools which could be improved using similar adjustments, making them more like the Ancillary Pools.
FIGHTING
Tier 1 (A) Boxing : Same as current, but add in alternate animations, specifically the "Barrage" animation.
Tier 1 (B) Hardiness : Passive 7.5% resist to Energy/Neg/Fire/Cold
Tier 2 (A) Kick : Buff the damage slightly AND add in alternate animations
Tier 2 (B) Tough : No Change from current form. Although I believe this toggle to provide too little for its endurance cost, I cannot provide a sound argument to increase the protection, other than there is quite a bit of wiggle room between this toggle and equivalent ones from each AT. This toggle is currently 50% strength of AT toggles available. I would argue that 70% would not be overpowered.
Tier 3 (A) Weave : No change from current form. This power is well balanced for the power pick investment and the amount of protection it provides.
Some reasons WHY
1) By creating a different pathway for choices, players can avoid taking an attack that they dont need or want in order to get the defense toggle they actually want. Those players still seeking extra attacks can still get the attack(s) in a variety of methods.
2) Adding in a passive power at tier 1 and including a small amount of resistance beside S/L would help the pool considerably. I personally feel that the amount of survival afforded by "Tough" is not balanced to its cost. Adding the E/N/F/C will make the toggle worth the endurance cost IMO. I am sure many will not agree, but every time I take tough as a player its for only 2 reasons (slotting Steadfast IOs AND pre-requisite for Weave). Thats not the way it should be. Tough should stand on its own as a power worth taking, even if you still take Weave.
3) Adding alternate animations is something that REALLY helped me with a couple of my existing characters, and extending this to the Power Pool attacks seems a "no-brainer" to me. Personally, I dont like the animations for Boxing or Kick and would LOVE to have other options available. Unfortunately, the current animations are so short that both powers would have to be "revamped" a bit to allow for other animations as options. But its a worthy effort IMHO
*** Thanks for tuning in and looking forward to constructive feedback***
EDIT: I have updated the original post based on feedback in this thread.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF