Fighting Pool Facelift
By
Biospark,
Posted on: 2010-05-21 22:17 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
I'm not quite sure what your point is, here. Yes, the categories are fairly broad, but the fact is that the powers chosen for each of the sets, as a whole, work in unison to allow the character to fulfill the role of the set. All buff/debuff sets have powers that, when used together properly, will allow the character to buff his allies or debuff his enemies. Any given power in the set was designed to assist the character with his role as a buffer or debuffer.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
So in your world, "grouped by their mechanical effects" means one of: Ranged Damage, Melee Damage, Damage Reduction, Crowd Control, Pet Summoning, and Buff/Debuff? Those are pretty damned broad categories, and still don't quite cover the powersets and ATs we've got. And don't even start thinking about the Kheldians and the Soldiers of Arachnos.
|
This is contrary to the powers in the Fighting Pool. The pool is a mix of specific-use offensive powers and general-use defense powers. Defenses are of great interest to many characters, because almost every character, regardless of archetype, can benefit from increased survivability. On the other hand, very few characters derive any meaningful benefit from weak melee attacks because those that actually would choose to enter melee combat (brutes, scrappers, tankers, stalkers, occasionally a dominator or blapper, certain builds of epic ATs) will have much more useful attack choices from their primary or secondary sets. The Fighting Pool attacks are barely comparable to the T1 power in a melee pool, and many scrappers and stalkers don't even take their T1s.
Anyway, I hope this clarifies my point. Again, I am not entirely sure what you're trying to argue, but I stand by my previous comments.
Quote:
Combat jumping add 1.88 Defense and immobilize protection at an unnoticable amount of end use a second.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Pool powers don't necessarily have to be at half strength of equivalent Primary/Secondary powers. In fact, there are some powers that are actually stronger than their equivalents.
Air Superiority for example is as good or better than Thunder Kick. That's comparing a primary to a tertiary. Not a good enough example; how do you explain Hasten. 2-3% resist would be total craptastic. It would be better than an attack you would never use, but still not a decent power at all. A better progression of strength would be something like this: 130% effective if Primary, 100% if secondary, 70% is Tertiary. So if a Tanker passive resist were around 12%, Scrapper level would be 9%, and making Tertiary around 6%. Any other progression, especially on something like resist would be cruel and unusual IMO.  |
This would be a passive always on power that provides resistance to EVERYTHING (except Psi)...3% doesn't sound bad at all, when you figure it stacks, is passive, and leads into the rest of the pool (or I can just take it and slot it with a KB resist IO or a +3% Defense IO.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Well, I guess thats true if you subscribe to the idea that Resist to Defense ratio is approx 2 to 1.|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Combat jumping add 1.88 Defense and immobilize protection at an unnoticable amount of end use a second.
This would be a passive always on power that provides resistance to EVERYTHING (except Psi)...3% doesn't sound bad at all, when you figure it stacks, is passive, and leads into the rest of the pool (or I can just take it and slot it with a KB resist IO or a +3% Defense IO. |
Personally I dont find that true at all, and here is my rationale; Most defenses are generic and will protect from nearly all sources of damage in the game. When they succeed, you take ZERO damage, regardless of how large or small the incoming hit was.
Resistance is extremely hard to get large amounts of unless you are an armored AT to begin with, and as I have stated previously, stacking Tough onto existing S/L toggles is a halfway decent option. Resistance has one redeeming factor in that a larger hit is reduced by a greater absolute amount of damage, but I think defense can be said to have that same benefit.
Finally, we get to the big factor that favors Defense: Mezz effects can be avoided.
Every AT which would seek mezz avoidance gets more benefit from defense and less from resistance, cannot stack resistance until the end game and has to take TWO marginally useless powers before being able to get Weave.
So, in summary, I feel Defense > Resistance UNLESS that resistance provides a very noticeable amount of protection to make up for the lack of ANY mezz mitigation.
I am sure the numbers Gurus would prove me wrong on paper, but thats my in-game "gut-feeling" on the strength of "Tough".
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
Uh, yeah. Ever use Air Superiority while you're actually in the air against a flying opponent?|
Originally Posted by The_Cheeseman
I mean, the Flight pool has a melee attack?
|
It has a very reliable -fly aspect to it. If you're hoverblasting on a non-devices blaster wouldn't something to knock other flyers out of the air be useful? The whole point of hoverblasting is to stay out of melee, and flying enemies can still enter melee with you. Air Superiority puts them on the ground in a hurry.
Quote:
| If you want to increase your character's survivability, you are forced to choose an inferior melee attack? |
Besides, it's the Fighting pool, not the Duck and Cover pool. Having attacks in it makes sense.
Quote:
| Don't even get me started on the worst pool of them all: Fitness. |
They can't make every single power in the game ZOMGAWESOME!!! Sometimes you need to take some less desireable powers to get to what you want.
And if powers should all be mechanically connected, just look at the names of the pools.
Fighting implies that it gives you the ability to fight. It'd be kind of stupid if all you could do was dodge stuff, kinda need to be able to throw a punch or kick, or you're not actually fighting.
Fitness implies that you are in good shape and healthy. How does running faster and jumping higher NOT fit with that theme?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Agreed.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Uh, yeah. Ever use Air Superiority while you're actually in the air against a flying opponent?
It has a very reliable -fly aspect to it. If you're hoverblasting on a non-devices blaster wouldn't something to knock other flyers out of the air be useful? The whole point of hoverblasting is to stay out of melee, and flying enemies can still enter melee with you. Air Superiority puts them on the ground in a hurry. Depends on what AT is taking it. For a scrapper, tank, brute, stalker, dominator, or blaster it's an inferior melee attack. For a Controller or defender it's better than Brawl. Also, they deal Containment damage for Controllers, my Fire/Kin has Boxing and actually USES it to help kill bosses. Besides, it's the Fighting pool, not the Duck and Cover pool. Having attacks in it makes sense. What's wrong with Fitness? The powers are perfectly thematic. If you're physically fit, you can run faster and jump higher. My Claws/Regen used to have Swift, Hurdle, and Health, and skipped Stamina because I didn't need it. They can't make every single power in the game ZOMGAWESOME!!! Sometimes you need to take some less desireable powers to get to what you want. And if powers should all be mechanically connected, just look at the names of the pools. Fighting implies that it gives you the ability to fight. It'd be kind of stupid if all you could do was dodge stuff, kinda need to be able to throw a punch or kick, or you're not actually fighting. Fitness implies that you are in good shape and healthy. How does running faster and jumping higher NOT fit with that theme? |
As for the fitness and Stamina. That's more of people wanting better performance and less down time. Not something I disagree with, but if you want it, you have to build for it. You can play this game without it and still be fine, but everyone likes the faster non-stop action of it.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
This (along with Fitness) seems to be deemed a mandatory pool for most melee characters. My thoughts on your comments:|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Here is an idea for improving the Fighting Power Pool that I would like to share and get feedback on. Additionally, I am working on ideas for other Power Pools which could be improved using similar adjustments, making them more like the Ancillary Pools.
FIGHTING Tier 1 (A) Boxing : Same as current, but add in alternate animations, specifically the "Barrage" animation from EM Tier 1 (B) Hardiness : Passive 5% resist to ALL except Psionic Tier 2 (A) Kick : Buff the damage slightly AND add in alternate animations Tier 2 (B) Tough : Toggle resistance to S/L just as its current form, but with 5% E/N/F/C added to the toggle Tier 3 (A) Weave : No change from current form. This power is well balanced for the power pick investment and the amount of protection it provides. Some reasons WHY 1) By creating a different pathway for choices, players can avoid taking an attack that they dont need or want in order to get the defense toggle they actually want. Those players still seeking extra attacks can still get the attack(s) in a variety of methods. 2) Adding in a passive power at tier 1 and including a small amount of resistance beside S/L would help the pool considerably. I personally feel that the amount of survival afforded by "Tough" is not balanced to its cost. Adding the E/N/F/C will make the toggle worth the endurance cost IMO. I am sure many will not agree, but every time I take tough as a player its for only 2 reasons (slotting Steadfast IOs AND pre-requisite for Weave). Thats not the way it should be. Tough should stand on its own as a power worth taking, even if you still take Weave. 3) Adding alternate animations is something that REALLY helped me with a couple of my existing characters, and extending this to the Power Pool attacks seems a "no-brainer" to me. Personally, I dont like the animations for Boxing or Kick and would LOVE to have other options available. Unfortunately, the current animations are so short that both powers would have to be "revamped" a bit to allow for other animations as options. But its a worthy effort IMHO *** Thanks for tuning in and looking forward to constructive feedback*** EDIT: I have updated the original post based on feedback in this thread. |
1. Some characters actually use the combat options for, um, combat. Kick should be upgraded, no doubt.
2. 5% res all is tremendously powerful. Also, what's the point of a power you cannot enhance (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, SONIC)?
I'm all for increasing resistance, tho.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a *real* useful invention. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technolog...t-sarcasm.html
Quote:
You're sort of right. The 2-for-1 thing is merely a rule of thumb, not a fact. It's also more accurate starting from 0% of both, rather than adding to some existing value.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
I am sure the numbers Gurus would prove me wrong on paper, but thats my in-game "gut-feeling" on the strength of "Tough".
|
It's also true that it's generally easier to get defense; even the resistance inspirations are poor. If I had to guess (and I do), this is mostly an I9-era worry about making it too easy to reach the resistance cap (and instead they made it too easy to reach the defense softcap).
Defense also helps you avoid mezzing effects, but apart from multi-million/billion inf IO builds, the people reaching noticeable levels of defense are the melee ATs or FF characters, who already have mez protection. Additionally, resistance benefits from always functioning, while defense is always a roll of the dice. Even when you're at the softcap, your opponent has a 1 in 20 chance of hitting you regardless, and critters also benefit from the streakbreaker just like we do.
But even aside from all that, I think the biggest divergence between resistance and defense is that only Brutes and Tankers* are capable of getting the same protection via resistance as everyone can via defense.
* Masterminds who combine resistance and the effects of bodyguard mode can reach the 90% protection rate as well, and are even capable of going higher.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
I have characters that use the pool attacks as well, but I also have characters that only want tough/weave and have no use for a minor attack that they will not use at all.|
Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
This (along with Fitness) seems to be deemed a mandatory pool for most melee characters. My thoughts on your comments:
1. Some characters actually use the combat options for, um, combat. Kick should be upgraded, no doubt. 2. 5% res all is tremendously powerful. Also, what's the point of a power you cannot enhance (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, SONIC)? I'm all for increasing resistance, tho. |
What I am hoping to see is a flexible system where those people that dont want an attack can choose a non-attack to open the pool, continue on into the pool and with 3 picks, not have any attacks which they will not use. By moving kick to tier 2 and beefing it up some, I was thinking that even the melee ATs would find an attractive option (with no re-draw issues) if they desired. And of course anyone (like a controller) looking for more attacks, would still have access to 2 attacks in this pool.
As far as the resist goes, I still cannot see why 5% resist (enhanceable to 7.5% approx) would be too much. There is so little stacking resist available in the game for non-armored ATs that I really feel this would make the set attractive for something besides Weave.
If the DEVs add more resistance options or better ones (thru IOs or even Incarnates) then you could be absolutely correct. But without knowing where they (the Devs) will be taking the game in the future, I can only base this idea off the existing state of the game.
One last thing that I may have failed to indicate, but would certainly be true. The 5% resist amount is most likely where scrappers would fall, Tankers would be closer to 6%, while squishy ATs more like 3-4%. Currently Tough has variable amounts of resist, so its certain that any additional pool resist powers would have variable amounts based on ATs.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
Resistance and Damage are intrinsically linked in the powers system. I remember when beta testing Willpower, Brute's Fury was acting like resistance enhancement in HPT (and wasn't hit by ED, so with full slotting and Fury HPT would essentially be at ~250% enhancement). This also explains why -res powers can't be slotted for debuff (both debuff enhancements and damage enhancements would affect the debuff, as would any damage buffs cast on you), and why there is no means to slot damage buffs (same reason, in reverse).
|
Originally Posted by Yomo_Kimyata
2. 5% res all is tremendously powerful. Also, what's the point of a power you cannot enhance (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, SONIC)?
|
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
I have been looking at some numbers again regarding Tough and Resistance and thought I would put them out there to show what this suggested change would allow.
CURRENT
Tankers/Defenders/Controllers get 15% from Tough and 30% from an equivalent S/L toggle
Scrappers get 11.25% from Tough and 22.5% from their S/L toggles
Blasters get 10.50% from Tough and 21% from S/L toggles
3SO enhanced prior to level 45
Tanker 46.8% S/L
Defender/Controller 23.4% S/L (Tough)
Scrapper 35.1% S/L
Blaster 16.4% S/L (Tough)
End-Game 3SO slotting of Tough plus a single AT Toggle
Tanker/Controller/Defender 70.2% S/L
Scrapper 52.7% S/L
Blaster 49.2% S/L
SUGGESTED CHANGE
*** Blaster/Controller/Defender taking Tough plus Hardiness, while Tanker/Scrapper using only AT toggle***
PRE-LEVEL 45
Tanker 46.8% S/L (1 power with 3 slots)
Controller/Defender 30.9% S/L 15% E/N/F/C (2 pools powers with 3 slots)
Scrapper 35.1% S/L (1 toggle with 3 slots)
Blaster 21.7% S/L 10.5% E/N/F/C (2 powers, 3 slots each)
END GAME
*** All classes taking 2 power pools plus AT toggle (all 3-slotted)***
Tanker/Defender/Controller 77.7% S/L 15% E/N/F/C
Scrapper 58.3% S/L 11.25% E/N/F/C
Blaster 54.5% S/L 10.5% E/N/F/C
I dont think the changes are as great as some people might think and its rather surprising how high Defenders and Controllers can get CURRENTLY versus S/L damage.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Hey Biospark!
My initial thoughts were that Tough is fine as is. As a rough rule of thumb it halves the incoming S/L for elemental Tankers, ie you take just over 1/4 damage instead of just over 1/2.
Going any higher and you start to encroach on Invulnerbaility's territory (capped S/L resistance of 90%).
With your suggested changes, I'd imagine a lot of Tankers taking Hardiness, so you're pushing them up to 80% S/L on their mature builds? Electrical Armour also gets a bit more resistance than most in its AT toggles, so they'd easily be approaching Invuln level resists.
Sure, Invulnerbaility gets Defence too, but Electric Armour also has capped Energy resist, Psi resist, end drain resist, damage aura and end management tools.
I think you might be pushing things a little bit too far here.
(And yeah, Defenders can get some pretty impressive numbers, since they use the same values as tankers for resist toggles. )
Thanks for the reply Dr.Mike
I guess that I am at a loss then as to what could be added to the tier 1 level that would be a non-attack, enabling the pool to be opened without being stuck with an un-wanted attack.
If tough was left alone then, could Hardiness be simply a Passive E/N/F/C resist around 7.5%. ?
I would not want to see a third toggle in the set. Two is bad enough for endurance usage.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
*coughleadershipcough*
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Quote:
Hehehe ! Yeah and I only use 2 of those currently |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
*coughleadershipcough*
|
I have been toying with the idea of all three, but not liking the numbers in Mids so far.
Combat Jumping, Maneuvers, Assault, Tactics, and Charged Armor <--- Ouch !
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
Yeah, that would work. There aren't any sets I can think of where a small ENFC resistance would push them into another set's territory.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
Thanks for the reply Dr.Mike
I guess that I am at a loss then as to what could be added to the tier 1 level that would be a non-attack, enabling the pool to be opened without being stuck with an un-wanted attack. If tough was left alone then, could Hardiness be simply a Passive E/N/F/C resist around 7.5%. ? I would not want to see a third toggle in the set. Two is bad enough for endurance usage. |
Resists to these types tend to be either pretty average (50% slotted for tanks eg Fire/Cold for Dark Armour), capped (Fire for Fiery Armour) or nonexistant (Cold for Fire Armour). 7.5% wont push anyone between any of these regimes.
It would let a few odd Defenders cap their resistance to some types, eg Dark/*/Dark could cap Negative resistance, or Storm/*/Elec to Energy.
Quote:
Psh, CJ doesn't count, it's endurance cost is too low |
Originally Posted by Biospark
Hehehe ! Yeah and I only use 2 of those currently
I have been toying with the idea of all three, but not liking the numbers in Mids so far. Combat Jumping, Maneuvers, Assault, Tactics, and Charged Armor <--- Ouch ! |
My Fortunata has Maneuvers, Assault, Tactics, Tactical Training: Maneuvers, Tactical Training: Assault, Tactical Training: Leadership, Indomitable Will, and both Hasten and Mind Link firing as often as possible.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
Hmm. 12% (tank, slotted) ENFC would bring my DA tank up to 60% F/C, 43% E and 74% N (from 48%, 31%, and 62%.) That's not Granite-level by any means but it's a lot. (Granite would be capped, of course, but Granite's already defensive overkill in my head.) On the other hand, that's the only character I can see significantly changing with this improvement.
Invuln tanks would be able to scrape together 44% "exotic" resistance, which is respectable but probably not game changing.
I want to dislike it, but I can't really.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Thanks Fulmens
I am happy with that response from you
Something like this could be done to every primary pool set in order to help it out.
There are many pools that are just fine, but enough do need improvement in the way powers are chosen, that a 5th power could be exactly what they need.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
I take Swift on every single character I have, even ones that don't take Stamina. What's fun to you isn't necessarily fun to everyone else. I love passive powers. Substance over flash any day of the week IMO.
|
Originally Posted by The_Cheeseman
Fitness. Talk about power taxation, not a single one of the Fitness powers is "fun" they are all basically just passive stat bonuses. The only reason anybody takes them is to get Stamina, a pool power that is basically required for most builds in order to have fun and not be hitting Rest every time it refreshes.
|
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Interesting thread Biospark.
Quote:
How about just making the Fighting attacks a slight bit better? Make it more viable (and a more attractive option) to skip one of your primary or secondary attacks in lieu of a Fighting attack. I don't think it would take a lot - there was a time when Boxing was considered a good attack and Kick was considered decent, though not as good as Boxing.|
Originally Posted by Biospark
I guess that I am at a loss then as to what could be added to the tier 1 level that would be a non-attack, enabling the pool to be opened without being stuck with an un-wanted attack.
|
Quote:
| I would not want to see a third toggle in the set. Two is bad enough for endurance usage. |
As for the Fitness pool, I wouldn't change a thing there. Yeah, Stamina is probably the most 'must-have' power in the game for most builds, but I think we have all come to accept that fact, and the elegant design of the Fitness pool makes it never seem like we are being forced to take useless powers.
I would be for them going further and just dropping the tier requirements from standard power pools, and perhaps the Epic pools, and having their availability depend only on meeting the level requirement. There would still be a maximum number of four pools you could dip into as a restriction.
That would solve the problem and at first glance I don't see how it would be game breaking, at least for the standard pools.
.
Quote:
I've always thought that's the way it should work.
|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I would be for them going further and just dropping the tier requirements from standard power pools, and perhaps the Epic pools, and having their availability depend only on meeting the level requirement. There would still be a maximum number of four pools you could dip into as a restriction.
That would solve the problem and at first glance I don't see how it would be game breaking, at least for the standard pools. |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
That would have the same effect that I am seeking without needing to add more powers to each pool.
However, what would happen is that people would just pick and choose the best picks and have more overall power picks from their primaries/secondaries.
Currently if you want Stamina and Weave, you need to invest 6 powers of your 24 total and be at least level 22.
If I understand you correctly, then it would only be 2 picks of our 24 and be level 22 or higher.
That's quite a drastic change, since you would get 4 powers back to invest in other picks.
I am not saying that I dont like the idea however. We can all use a few more power picks
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
I get the idea that a lot of power pool powers are balanced based on wasted power selections.
When I started playing and stuck to Blasters, it seemed like Aid Self was deliberately placed out of reach, because self-heals were the province of the other less offensively balanced archetypes. If I wanted one I had to "waste" a power on Aid Other. As a solo Fire/Fire Blaster, I really found Aid Self to be worth its weight in gold.
Ditto for the Fear powers in Presence, or Tough and Weave, they all have dubious filler powers between you and them.
Then again, some pools seem to have it backwards, specifically Superspeed and Flight. Hasten and Air Superiority are five-star powers, while Whirlwind and Group Fly are novelties at best.
I'd personally love it if Stamina didn't have two pre-requisites. I have a few characters who couldn't squeeze in one particular power because of it. Too many of my melee characters have dropped a melee set power for Kick or Boxing to get Tough, and consequently do a bit less damage or go with one less Gauntlet attack.
I'm having a really hard time thinking of any reasons why this wouldn't work, or cases where it would clearly overpower a character to get rid of these filler powers.
What I will say is I doubt the passive +resist to all but Psi would be at 5%.
I'd say more likely 2% - 3%. This is basing Pool Powers against a close Defense Powers (High Pain Tolerance)
Air Superiority for example is as good or better than Thunder Kick. That's comparing a primary to a tertiary. Not a good enough example; how do you explain Hasten.
2-3% resist would be total craptastic. It would be better than an attack you would never use, but still not a decent power at all. A better progression of strength would be something like this: 130% effective if Primary, 100% if secondary, 70% is Tertiary.
So if a Tanker passive resist were around 12%, Scrapper level would be 9%, and making Tertiary around 6%. Any other progression, especially on something like resist would be cruel and unusual IMO.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF