CoH Cosmology

Thirty-Seven · 05-24-2010 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane

That is exactly what I said in the post. The game is the only true canonical source. It even supersedes the devs' internal lore docs (or what's in their heads) because those don't always match up with what's in game. In cases where the game doesn't cover something yet, it's safe to defer to the comic or novels until it does appear in game.

I think I missed a couple "not"s and "don't"s and things with my initial reading. Guess I was pretty tired.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane

I've got an even longer list of stuff in the game that contradicts the novels and the comic series.

And that line, being phrased the way it was, made me think you were taking issue with the game disagreeing with the novels/comics. Maybe that is where I was coming from?

synthozoic · 05-25-2010 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombie Man

The current coordinate system is not expandable to use more complex sigils, such as LambdaMuNu - DeltaBeta 94432-908.

Well, right, the moment we allow for longer strings of characters then, yes, each universe in an infinity of universes can be labeled--I think this even works for uncountable infinities as well.

But if it's just a numbering system, that's kind of disappointing because, a label, Xi Pi 99-32, doesn't really tell us anything about the parallel world we're linking to. I'd like a classification scheme built into this labeling system as well. So we can say, "All universes that start with 'omicron' are Earths that have been conquered by the Rikti. We'll want to avoid those."

But this gets me to thinking about one of the assumptions behind intercosmic portals. Why do they always seem to open onto a parallel Earth? I'd figure that if the Portal Corporation is just testing the equipment and pointing the machine at random, the portal would most likely open into the space between the galaxies in some other universe. I'd assume this was true because of the huge ratio in favor of empty space to planets in a given universe.

Why does the door so conveniently open onto some largely undisturbed patch of land on a parallel Earth?

"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."

Thirty-Seven · 05-25-2010 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synthozoic

Why does the door so conveniently open onto some largely undisturbed patch of land on a parallel Earth?

Maybe the portal has a "range." It is based on Earth in a given building, perhaps the other end has to dump off a certain finite distance from the "source"... but measured from the same location in the new universe. If this distance is small enough, than all Portal Corp portals would dump out on Earth.

Which, brings up the question of places like the Shadow Shard. Perhaps if you layed out that particular "universe" over ours, you'd find that Firebase Zulu happens to land where Earth is in our universe.

It makes a certain kinda sense that the portal would have a sort of tether like that.

Quasadu · 05-25-2010 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zombie Man

That presumes two things:

The current coordinate system is not expandable to use more complex sigils, such as LambdaMuNu - DeltaBeta 94432-908.

The infinity of universes is a 'small infinity' that is made of a set of universes that can be mapped to the whole number counting system. If, OTOH, it's a 'large infinity' such as the set of real numbers, then, yes, we will run out of names.

Well the post you quoted did say "assuming a countably infinite..." so your second paragraph is stated upfront.

@Quasadu

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Johnny_Butane · 05-25-2010 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven

I think I missed a couple "not"s and "don't"s and things with my initial reading. Guess I was pretty tired.

No harm done.

Quote:

And that line, being phrased the way it was, made me think you were taking issue with the game disagreeing with the novels/comics. Maybe that is where I was coming from?

It wasn't intended to be read as taking issue with it. On a personal level, I prefer the lore of the comics or novels to what ended up in game in a faw cases, but on the whole I like the game's lore very much, even the stuff I like the least.

The only thing I'm critical of is canonical dissonance because of what I perceive as a bits of sloppiness. Example:

What color is Marcus Cole's hair?

Recently, Hero 1 gives it as blonde. We don't know if he got that from the lore docs or pulled it out of his head that day.

But:

-The old cinematic depicts him as dark haired.
-The screen shots of his 1930's look are dark haired.
-The cover of the Web of Arachnos novel has him dark haired as well.

However, these are old and could easily have been based on lore that was rewritten since. What around newer stuff?

-The CoH comic series from Top Cow is relatively newer. In it, he's shown to be either blonde or with light brown hair, the lighting and coloring leaves it questionable.

-Even more recent than that however, is the Going Rogue web site which states clearly in his bio that Tyrant, who is the Marcus Cole of Praetoria, has brown hair. The concept art for Tyrant also shows him with brown hair.

There's no reason to presume at this point he would have a different hair color than the main universe's Marcus Cole. He could, and there may be a story-driven reason for that difference, but there's no reason to presume at this point.

So we're left with Hero 1 who's in charge of the story and lore saying one thing, and (assuming Tyrant goes into game matching that concept art) the game contradicting him for maybe no reason other than confusion.

That is the only kind of thing I'm critical of; canonical dissonance because somewhere along the line, someone didn't check a simple fact. I'm more than willing cut some slack because I know the sheer amount of writing that must have been done for GR, but it doesn't make it any less annoying.

[EDIT] I just thought of checking Reichsman in game, who is also Marcus Cole. He too has brown hair.

.

Durakken · 05-25-2010 09:29 AM

You're making a mountain out of a molehill, Johnny. When you get asked a question like that you generally go off memory and depending on where your memory of that detail comes from you can easily get it wrong or you could just forget. That's why you can not take what is said on the forums and in comics and such as canon. On the other hand you can take game lore as canon more often because it often has to go through several check points asking "is that right?"

Johnny_Butane · 05-25-2010 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Durakken

You're making a mountain out of a molehill, Johnny. When you get asked a question like that you generally go off memory and depending on where your memory of that detail comes from you can easily get it wrong or you could just forget.

It's not an important detail, but it's a simple one. If an editor overlooked Bruce Wayne being blonde in an issue, he'd be in hot water. It's a question of consistency and polish.

Quote:

That's why you can not take what is said on the forums and in comics and such as canon.

No. When it's in a thread created for players to ask canon questions and the writers of said canon to answer them, you should be able to take the responses as canon.

Quote:

On the other hand you can take game lore as canon more often because it often has to go through several check points asking "is that right?"

See, that's my point. It's clearly not getting that quality control if it's deviating from what Hero 1 or Manticore had set down as canon. Like I said, it's understandable but that still doesn't make it a good thing.

.

Durakken · 05-25-2010 09:54 AM

First, I don't think Manticore is the one who wrote the bible...

Second, Even if it was him who did write the bible I have to say from experience in creating large amounts of characters and ideas and lore for various worlds it's near impossible to garentee you are gonig to keep those things straight especially as time goes on and you have different views of those characters.

Johnny_Butane · 05-25-2010 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Durakken

First, I don't think Manticore is the one who wrote the bible...

From Paragonwiki

Quote:

Name: Sean Michael Fish
Position: Design Dept. (story and characters)

Sean Fish was part of the City of Heroes development team for a long time, wrangling story and design since about a year before launch.

Mantore and lead writer Joe "Hero 1" Morrissey both know the lore. Wrote all of it? No. Contributed a lot and was responsible for it? Yes. Manticore set up many threads to answer canon questions, including a sticky'd one called Fodder for the Canon in the Developer's Corner that AFAIK is sadly on hiatus.

.

Durakken · 05-25-2010 10:21 AM

Congratulations on not paying attention Johnny.

synthozoic · 05-25-2010 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven

Maybe the portal has a "range." It is based on Earth in a given building, perhaps the other end has to dump off a certain finite distance from the "source"... but measured from the same location in the new universe. If this distance is small enough, than all Portal Corp portals would dump out on Earth.

Perhaps, but that makes a lot of assumptions on how the geometry works.

If we were go with speculations in current, real physics then the situation is a lot more complicated.

Forexample, if we go with Ekpyrosis and Brane Theory, then the universe next door is, at some points, barely the width of an atom away from us in along the 5th or whatever dimensional axis. The problem of course is how to point our portal generator at right angles to reality, the four dimensions we know about.

If we go with classical, isotropic but widely separated Hubble Volumes, the distances these portals would have to jump are staggering--many hundreds of thousands of undecillions of lightyears. At those distances the odds of hitting a parallel Earth at random are vanishingly small.

If we go with Linde and Bousso's Eternal Chaotic Inflation, the distances between separate space-time manifolds is just mind melting. But it's even worse than the Hubble Volumes because these bubbles of space-time would only be reachable by traveling huge distances through hyperspace. There may be a 5 dimensional speed limit that we don't know about yet.

But of course this is a game about comic book physics so we can just make something up and then stay consistent to it.

Maybe it's just a tuning situation where the more dissimilar the universe's history is the harder it is to "tune it in" and open a portal into it. And this is why portals so often open so conveniently into parallel Earths instead of empty space.

As long as we are consistent about our hand waving, I'm cool with it.

"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."

synthozoic · 05-25-2010 01:08 PM

Full disclosure: I have a toon, Quark Zombie, whose powers are based on this stuff so I've been thinking a lot about it this last year or so.

"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."

Miuramir · 05-25-2010 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synthozoic

Forexample, if we go with Ekpyrosis and Brane Theory, then the universe next door is, at some points, barely the width of an atom away from us in along the 5th or whatever dimensional axis. The problem of course is how to point our portal generator at right angles to reality, the four dimensions we know about.

Some variant of this seems the closest to me. By default, the portal doesn't transit you in space by much if at all, but merely shifts dimensional frequencies. Some SF has the concept that in the general case, the more divergent the alternate universe, the greater the energy required.

As for the naming / coordinate system and structure generally, it seems influenced by a mix of Stargate and Heinlein's The Number of the Beast.

An interesting and important question is whether the universes are quantized, and therefore probably either finite or a low-aleph infinity (with some possible bias toward "countably infinite" as likely); or whether there are real-number-like parameters involved and a much higher order of infinities, although we may not be technically capable of reaching or describing them yet.

One simplistic assumption might be that since the structure of the universes is quantized, if time is also quantized and spacetime is ultimately closed one could arrive at a very large but technically finite number of possible universes; one for each possible value of each possible quanta at each possible time. The difficulty here is that ending up with destination universes that are interestingly different for story purposes, yet on a broader scale astoundingly similar enough to permit travel and survival (let alone alternate selves) is pretty tricky. One handwave might be that the power to go to significantly different universes is considerable, so that the reachable space with current technology is a very near neighborhood; yet that because the equipment used is (comparatively) crude given the forces involved, sufficiently fine adjustments to travel to Heinlein's "World without a J" or even to the one where one of your hydrogen atoms is spinning the other way is not (yet) practical.

Another approach which could be argued is closer to Heinlein's literary perspective, where it's less about the motion of atoms and more about choices. One could handwave that most of the universes we can reach are similar because most of the divergence is recent, with the advent and subsequent spread of sapient creatures that make more explicit choices. Some "river of time" arguments would normally go here, so that "world where I chose to have the blueberry breakfast bar out of the box in my drawer this morning instead of the strawberry one" merges back pretty smoothly into the general "river" of this current narrative universe unless it causes some major change later. The portal technology as we currently know it can then be said to only pick up major "rivers", leading to the desired observed result.

It's not clear whether the devs themselves, whether individually, collectively, or through the device of the story bible, have done much serious thinking about the fundamental structure of the multiverse; it's even less clear whether any such thinking that has occurred is/was either well-informed or well-documented.

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Mikki · 05-25-2010 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Obsidius

Let's say you have an onion. You clone that onion X amount of times, so you have X amount of the same identical onion.

Each onion represents a copy of Earth. You can call one onion Earth Prime, another can be called Preatorian Earth, etc. etc. So you have all of these identical onions with different names. We'll disregard the differences in people on these worlds for the time being.

Now, each identical onion has layers. You can call one layer the Physical Realm, another layer is the Psychic Plain, another layer is the Netherworld, another the Spirity Realm*, etc., etc. So each onion has these different layers, realms, quantum states, whatever you want to call them.

So yes, even though you have all of these alternate Earths, each one has different plains of existence, so to speak. So the Spirit Realm of Praetorian Earth or Warwolf Earth may be completely different than the Spirit Realm on Prime Earth. Sure, not seeing a ghost of a Praetorian PD cop in our spirit world could just be chalked up to programming, but more likely it's because his spirit resides in the Spirit Realm of Praetorian Earth.

But just like the Physical Plain, there may be ways to connect the other layers of each onion to the same layer of other onions, and travel between the the different plains of existence between each world.

* Technically Croaotoa is in the Spirit Realm (AFAIR)

Ogre's have layers too

Arcanaville · 05-25-2010 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Durakken

Hrmmm I wonder if there is a system for the names that they have thought of for what each piece means... It's got to be a coordinate system or a registry number...

If it's a Registry then they have found a lot of earths and need to revamp the system as they are going to run of numbers soon...

So... the only thing it makes sense as is some sort of cordinate system...

Alpha Upsilon 24-2 - World Destroyed by your alternate
Gamma Upsilon 28-3 - Nemesis controled world (destroyed large cities)
Delta Zeta 24-10 (Axis America/Axis Earth)
Epsilon Tau 27-2 "Clockwork Earth"
Zeta Tao 7-63 (Shadow World)
Lamda Rho 57-20 - "Werewolf World"
Nu Beta 9-7 - Council War ravaged world
Sigma Psi 20-7 - Revenant Hero dimension
Tau Delta 8-7 - Nemesis Automaton dimension
Tau Gamma 9-24 - OranBegan Earth
Upsilon Beta 9-6 - "Praetorian-Earth"
Omega Omicron 26-20 - "Council Empire"

This tells us that we are working with 24 by 24 by 57 by 63 variable number

This likely doesn't tell coordinates in time or space so there is no reason to consider 3D space in the system. Why do I say that? look at the numbers and think of the missions... You almost always portal in at exactly the same place when portal corp is there on the other end and the numbers just don't line up so the probability is that time nor space is adressed with this system.

So this to me can only be 1 of 2 things...

A coordinate system within a defined area or some sort of "wavelength" or "phase" settings for each world...

The phase setting is stupid as it would suggest only a poorly thought out system that would be self limiting with no real benefit

Thus I would argue that it is a grid type coordinate system

Alpha Beta X-Y

Alpha = horizontal on the grid
Beta = Vertical on the grid
X = horizontal within the previously selected cell
Y = Vertical within the previously selected cell

or something akin to this.

I don't think the dimensional names are actually specific location information for the dimension they refer to. Contacts often mention the names as something somewhat arbitrary: "...a dimension we designate..." or "...a dimension called..." I've always assumed that the names were probably derived somehow from more specific technical information about the dimension, like a "nickname."

Consider that dimensions are "discovered." If there is a coordinate or frequency system of some kind that tells a dimensional portal what dimension to connect to, its clear not all combinations of settings actually lead somewhere interesting. Some - most - may not lead anywhere at all. If that's the case, its entirely possible that "Epsilon Tau 27-2" is like the last four elements of the dimensional "signature" and Portal researchers have gotten in the habit of naming dimensions after those four which tend to be unique among all discovered dimensions, like a credit card receipt printing the last four digits of your credit card number as verification (by the way, if you see your entire credit card number printed on a receipt or bill, that's generally a no-no these days).

At least, that is how I've always pictured those names: as "dimensional nicknames" of the dimensions derived from their actual Portal settings or coordinates.

Initially, when I first starting running Tina, I had an alternate fanciful theory in my head. I thought it was possible that the dimensional name referred to a pair of exploratory teams and a serial number. In other words, "Epsilon Tau 27-2" was first explored or discovered by team Epsilon and then confirmed by team Tau as a double-check. The 27-2 was a serial number initially assigned to the dimension by the Epsilon team. And it wasn't a totally crazy theory: some dimensions don't have that nomenclature, like the Hydra dimension, and that dimension was not apparently explored by any portal exploration teams: in the multidimensional mission you're tasked with being the first to explore it. But I'm not sure if all of the portal dimensions and missions hold up to this theory really: I kinda forgot about it after a while..

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Thirty-Seven · 05-25-2010 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanaville

Epsilon Tau 27-2

Hmmm... did anyone else notice how similar the dimensional naming scheme is to the naming of various Malta personnell?

Helix Black 08-08, for instance? Name Name #-# sure seems like a consistant formula to me. I am certain it is due to a similar (perhaps the same) mind on the development team at the time coming up with it... but that ruins a lot of the fun.

As for why Portal Corp. portals continue to only place people back onto Earth? I really think you folks are getting waaaaaay too complicated with this variety of comic book physics.

____________________
(Back to the fun stuff.)

What if all of the various "realities" or dimensions occupy the same space? We are unable to see them, because we (and everything else) are out of phase with the other dimension. They "vibrate" or oscilate or do the macarena in a different way, and therefore are invisible. Perhaps, the Portals don't "move" you at all... but instead simply change your "phase" so that you can react to the new dimension properly. Could it be, then, that the designation, is instead a "modulation" that tunes one to a universe's frequnency?

Then, Alpha Gamma 00-89 would adjust one dial to 01 another to 04 another to 00 and a final one to 89? This would mean that it could be a sort of notation for a decimal number... one that is apt to be used as a name, and is easier to keep track of then 1.000042342123299 Hz, or whatever.

Thirty-Seven · 05-25-2010 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikki

Ogre's have layers too

"Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh!" screams the Grammar Nazi within me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikki

Ogres have layers too.

There, much better. Crisis averted.

Arcanaville · 05-26-2010 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven

What if all of the various "realities" or dimensions occupy the same space? We are unable to see them, because we (and everything else) are out of phase with the other dimension. They "vibrate" or oscilate or do the macarena in a different way, and therefore are invisible. Perhaps, the Portals don't "move" you at all... but instead simply change your "phase" so that you can react to the new dimension properly. Could it be, then, that the designation, is instead a "modulation" that tunes one to a universe's frequnency?

Then, Alpha Gamma 00-89 would adjust one dial to 01 another to 04 another to 00 and a final one to 89? This would mean that it could be a sort of notation for a decimal number... one that is apt to be used as a name, and is easier to keep track of then 1.000042342123299 Hz, or whatever.

Anything is possible, but I think that if that were true "portals" would more likely be rooms you entered and then had some process applied to you while you waited, as opposed to gateways you passed through. The portal mechanism itself suggests that the process of traveling from one universe to another is an actual traversal, and not a transformation.

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synthozoic · 05-26-2010 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven

As for why Portal Corp. portals continue to only place people back onto Earth? I really think you folks are getting waaaaaay too complicated with this variety of comic book physics.

Ah, but Durraken brought it up and encouraged us to speculate, right? Thus our descent in madness is precipitated!

But as I said before, I'm cool with a handwavium explanation as long as it's consistent. The game background is canon, I dig.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven

What if all of the various "realities" or dimensions occupy the same space? We are unable to see them, because we (and everything else) are out of phase with the other dimension. They "vibrate" or oscilate or do the macarena in a different way, and therefore are invisible. Perhaps, the Portals don't "move" you at all... but instead simply change your "phase" so that you can react to the new dimension properly. Could it be, then, that the designation, is instead a "modulation" that tunes one to a universe's frequnency?

Right, that's the "tuning" method I alluded to before. That's probably the simplest way. As you say this could also explain the naming scheme. The names are a bit like channels on a cable box.

But it's possible that some of the universes or planes of different realities mentioned in the game, and by Durraken earlier, might not be the same as the alternate histories and parallel earths. The physics here might be different and they can't be reachable by "tuning" via a portal machine.

So I think we need to make clear which planes are just parallel Earths and which are something else entirely.

"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."

Felderburg · 06-01-2010 10:10 PM

I think I read the thread reasonably carefully enough that this hasn't been addressed fully:

Lilitu and Infernal throw an interesting wrench into things, in that he is from another dimension, and she is his mother, which implies that demons have a pan-dimensional realm or abilities. This was addressed a little bit earlier, but it gets fun when you consider the "meta" metaverse... i.e., the servers. It's one thing to think about a server's universe, with one Lilitu who is able to access many dimensions within it, but then you have to begin to consider: what if, even in one server-verse, there is an infinite amount of Lilitus? Could there be parallel metaverses within a server, each with their own pan-dimensional demon realm? Or is each server its own metaverse, with only one demon realm?

Say, bedtime already? Hmm... maybe that has something to do with this post...

Kyasubaru · 06-02-2010 05:13 AM

In one of the older site updates concerning villain groups, there were "testimonials" sent in by players about the villain group, and each player's server was listed in such a way as to imply that each server is considered to be a separate but "real" dimension. I'm not sure it's exactly canon, but ever since then I've taken this to be the case. (I think the article in question might be the Warriors dossier... Or possibly the Tsoo.)

Which sort of puts the whole "Primal Earth" thing out of whack... If all servers are Primal Earth, can the implication of that name really apply? Perhaps the "real" Primal Earth is the test server, or whatever server was the very first one to be brought online. (I never liked the idea of a "first" dimension, though I guess if the theory about alternate dimensions being created from branching decisions is what's being used, then a first earth is inevitable.)

Anyway, if each server is a parallel dimension, a version of Primal Earth, then each one has its own version of Praetoria, and its own Council Empire, and its own Shadow Shard. Of course that gets into a naming problem. Would you call the version of Praetoria that spawned from Virtue "Virtue Praetoria?" Certainly the Praetoria of one Primal Earth is different than the Praetoria of another. Pinnacle Praetoria wouldn't have the same heroes/villains(PCs) as Freedom Praetoria.

Sorry, I'm sort of rambling now because it's late and I'm typing this on a phone. I guess I don't really have much of a point, just adding my own ideas to the mix.

DKellis · 06-02-2010 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven

Hmmm... did anyone else notice how similar the dimensional naming scheme is to the naming of various Malta personnell?

Helix Black 08-08, for instance? Name Name #-# sure seems like a consistant formula to me. I am certain it is due to a similar (perhaps the same) mind on the development team at the time coming up with it... but that ruins a lot of the fun.

I figure that the dimensional naming scheme is basically Greek Greek Number-Number, which for some reason gets used a lot in pop science/pseudo-science, as well as military/spy thriller codenames and book titles. I know the Greek letter naming gets used often in actual science (but probably not as much as fiction would have us believe); I have absolutely no idea if this is also the case in the spy business.

Malta names tend to be Codename Codename Number-Number, or even just Codename Codename (I think happens a few times). It probably draws on the military/spy thriller stuff more than anything.

So I do think it's a coincidence.

Quote:

As for why Portal Corp. portals continue to only place people back onto Earth? I really think you folks are getting waaaaaay too complicated with this variety of comic book physics.

I always assumed that it's because we don't see the stories where the portals place people elsewhere. I know the meta-reason is limited storytelling tools, but... actually, I've kind of lost track of how meta we are now.

Quote:

What if all of the various "realities" or dimensions occupy the same space? We are unable to see them, because we (and everything else) are out of phase with the other dimension. They "vibrate" or oscilate or do the macarena in a different way, and therefore are invisible. Perhaps, the Portals don't "move" you at all... but instead simply change your "phase" so that you can react to the new dimension properly. Could it be, then, that the designation, is instead a "modulation" that tunes one to a universe's frequnency?

In which case we may or may not have to bring up how Phase Shift works in the game, since I think the handwavey explanation is that it shifts us just out of phase like how you mention, and apparently all Phase Shifts shift us out of phase in the same way, or at least to the same frequency.

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synthozoic · 06-02-2010 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyasubaru

Anyway, if each server is a parallel dimension, a version of Primal Earth, then each one has its own version of Praetoria, and its own Council Empire, and its own Shadow Shard. Of course that gets into a naming problem. Would you call the version of Praetoria that spawned from Virtue "Virtue Praetoria?" Certainly the Praetoria of one Primal Earth is different than the Praetoria of another. Pinnacle Praetoria wouldn't have the same heroes/villains(PCs) as Freedom Praetoria.

We could view things that way. Each server could be a very slight variation on Prime Earth, just different enough to have heroes and villains with the same name but very different backgrounds but not different enough to have the Axis win World War II or to have Kennedy survive assassination but Reagan not.

But it might just be simpler to ignore the server stuff and name-space restrictions as artificial since a multiverse with time travel, magic and superpowers is complicated enough!

By the way, I don't see it mentioned anywhere, but am I correct to assume that the Prime Earth universe is named "Alpha Alpha 0-0?"

And I think a distinction should be made between universes that just have contrafactual histories and universes that have different physics entirely. I mean is the realm that all these demons come from really just a parallel universe or is it something else entirely? I'd argue that it's something different.

I think we should be clear about our definitions and concepts so we can carry this discussion forward.

For example, I think people in this thread have misused the term "dimension." I think we should stick with the way physics and mathematics define "dimension." To call an entire realm of existence or space-time a dimension is not accurate. The space-time of our universe has four dimensions (Possibly more if we go with string theory.). If we bring in other universes with contrafactual histories--Praetorian Earth, Axis America, etc.--that requires at least a fifth, hyperspatial, dimension.

But it sticks in my craw to call any of these universes or planes of existence a "dimension."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyasubaru

Sorry, I'm sort of rambling now because it's late and I'm typing this on a phone. I guess I don't really have much of a point, just adding my own ideas to the mix.

Typing this on a mobile? <shudder!> I feel for you dude!

"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."

Durakken · 06-02-2010 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felderburg

I think I read the thread reasonably carefully enough that this hasn't been addressed fully:

Lilitu and Infernal throw an interesting wrench into things, in that he is from another dimension, and she is his mother, which implies that demons have a pan-dimensional realm or abilities. This was addressed a little bit earlier, but it gets fun when you consider the "meta" metaverse... i.e., the servers. It's one thing to think about a server's universe, with one Lilitu who is able to access many dimensions within it, but then you have to begin to consider: what if, even in one server-verse, there is an infinite amount of Lilitus? Could there be parallel metaverses within a server, each with their own pan-dimensional demon realm? Or is each server its own metaverse, with only one demon realm?

Say, bedtime already? Hmm... maybe that has something to do with this post...

Thinking it through with all the information I can find and knowledge of how characters often work... I think it's a bit of mistaken understanding... Llitu IS Infernal's mother, but not Primal Earth's Infernal.

Felderburg · 06-02-2010 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Durakken

Thinking it through with all the information I can find and knowledge of how characters often work... I think it's a bit of mistaken understanding... Llitu IS Infernal's mother, but not Primal Earth's Infernal.

From http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Infernal

"A master of demon binding and summoning from another dimension..."

"During Defeat Infernal:
Before combat: As I suspected, the inscriptions match. She was here, all those lost ages ago. Mother..."

"During Defeat and Capture Lilitu:
Before combat: Lilitu! Mother! I'm coming for you!"

I'd say that's pretty conclusive.