See, the CoH-verse is like a 'real' comic book hero universe. A big, convoluted mess of lore and add-ons shoehorned in without any sense of coherency sometimes even with different sources contradicting eachother. I just hope the Praetorian retcon coming with GR makes some of it better instead of worse.
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Would the Pocket D count as another World in itself?
It may look like the shadow shard but we are told it not part of that so...
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No. "Gods" in CoHverse are not just Humans with magical Powers. Statesman is an Incarnate of Zeus. In mythology an Incarnate is a being that is a human born aspect of a god. This is an inaccurate term for Statesman because he was not born the way he was... He is really an Avatar which is a being that is a Human that represents an aspect of a god.... which is similar to an Incarnate, but different. Zeus in either case is a separate entity to Statesman and all Zeus' Avatars.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
The gods were just Pandora-box endowed humans augmented by legend which means that for the Rikti, they killed off all their super-powered (and magical) beings leaving only psy-users, except in the comic book story where Recluse blocked all the Pandora-box powers in Paragon and States had to go an alternate dimension where the gods really did exist because they met Prometheus who thought States was Zeus because States had the Zues-power, though he wasn't Zeus because there really were no gods, except for the gods that warred over giving magic to the humans which is what Prometheus did but in the war of the gods story it was Ermeeth who did it sometime after the first war of the gods who pre-existed humans who are the real gods only empowered with the Pandora-box powers and in that first war the evil gods were banished to some other dimension and became the Banished Pantheon.
See? Logical. |
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Originally Posted by Lazarus
That would imply that Infernal is from one of the Shadow Worlds and not the Netherworld, since there are two Infernals.
That would also mean that there would have to be two of Lillitu as well. |
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Originally Posted by RottenLuck
Would the Pocket D count as another World in itself?
It may look like the shadow shard but we are told it not part of that so... |
The only way I can think to explain it is is like when you have a whole bunch of bubbles... Individual bubbles are alternate worlds, but small bubbles connected to a bigger bubble is a pocket dimension.
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No, there are competing and contradicting mythologies in the CoH universe if you include the comics and novels to be canon.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
No. "Gods" in CoHverse are not just Humans with magical Powers. Statesman is an Incarnate of Zeus. In mythology an Incarnate is a being that is a human born aspect of a god. This is an inaccurate term for Statesman because he was not born the way he was... He is really an Avatar which is a being that is a Human that represents an aspect of a god.... which is similar to an Incarnate, but different. Zeus in either case is a separate entity to Statesman and all Zeus' Avatars.
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The novels make it clear that the gods were humans empowered by Pandora's box. The age of the Greek gods was simply a previous era of superheroes who were thought of and worshipped as gods. The Three Sisters were the only ones who remained to the present day, but their origin is that they were empowered humans.
It's not that Cole received the 'spirit' of Zeus, but Zeus, Imperious, and Cole all received the same form of empowerment which is named after the first or most famous guy to receive it, Zeus.
If the Greek gods really were gods... where are they now?
And all that from the novel clearly contradicts the in-game mythology that there are supernatural entities called gods.
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Game take precedence over all other sources of information. |
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
No, there are competing and contradicting mythologies in the CoH universe if you include the comics and novels to be canon.
The novels make it clear that the gods were humans empowered by Pandora's box. The age of the Greek gods was simply a previous era of superheroes who were thought of and worshipped as gods. The Three Sisters were the only ones who remained to the present day, but their origin is that they were empowered humans. It's not that Cole received the 'spirit' of Zeus, but Zeus, Imperious, and Cole all received the same form of empowerment which is named after the first or most famous guy to receive it, Zeus. If the Greek gods really were gods... where are they now? And all that from the novel clearly contradicts the in-game mythology that there are supernatural entities called gods. |
Also, It is possible that Zeus was a human that was an incarnate of those powers, but that does not mean that the Zeus powers are not part of some other actual god from which those are derived. Especially since it is clear in muiltiple sources that Marcus Cole has different personalities... He speaks sometimes as Statesman/Marcus Cole and sometimes he speaks as Zeus... which means that the Zeus source is a sentient being.
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Um... the Big C is not so much a god as just a really really powerful priest. That would be like saying 'if you thought one Pope was bad...' Cthulhu and his buddies the star spawn and to a lesser extent (and mostly indirectly through the Big C) Hydra, Dagon, and the deep ones all worship Azathoth and the Outter Gods. |
Originally Posted by Obsidius
That's right... if you thought one Cthuluh was bad...
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Just saying might want to read up on the old Lovecraft.
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Actually only one of the novels (Web of Arachnos) makes the claim that the gods were only empowered mortals, Freedom Phalanx has Statesman making the claim that the spirit of Zeus is in fact living in him.|
Originally Posted by Zombie Man
No, there are competing and contradicting mythologies in the CoH universe if you include the comics and novels to be canon.
The novels make it clear that the gods were humans empowered by Pandora's box. The age of the Greek gods was simply a previous era of superheroes who were thought of and worshipped as gods. The Three Sisters were the only ones who remained to the present day, but their origin is that they were empowered humans. It's not that Cole received the 'spirit' of Zeus, but Zeus, Imperious, and Cole all received the same form of empowerment which is named after the first or most famous guy to receive it, Zeus. |
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| If the Greek gods really were gods... where are they now? |
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Question: What happened to the Greek gods in the CoH lore? Were they real beings of supernatural power or people who were lucky enough to find the well and gain powers and were immortal for a few centuries until they just faded away? And if that be the case does that mean Statesman's power is temporary as well? Answer: In the CoH universe the gods of the Greek and other pantheons are real beings of great power. In ancient times they took a much more active role in mortal affairs until their actions and conflicts threatened to destroy the world itself. Pacts were made, oaths were given, and accords were reached. Statesman and other Incarnates are one representation of these agreements and serve as the avatars of the gods. Their powers are not temporary and in most cases are no longer even directly dependent on the gods themselves. Although what would happen to something like Statesmans Lightning of Zeus power if Zeus were to somehow be eliminated thankfully remains an unanswered question. Most of the gods agreed to operate through chosen champions instead of manifesting directly. Of course some of the gods are unwilling to be bound by any such agreements and threaten this delicate balance. Even some mortals refuse to abide by the ancient covenants as is in evidence with the servants of the Banished Pantheon. |
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| And all that from the novel clearly contradicts the in-game mythology that there are supernatural entities called gods. |
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Question Every franchise has its rules of canon and I'm assuming that City of Heroes is no exception. While I'm very interested in the lore of the City, I'd first like to know what sources are considered canon. The game itself is a given but are both volumes of the comic canon? The novel(s)? Heroclix info? Trading cards? Are any licensed products so far off the mark that they have to be ignored? Also, if a player asks a question that has no real definitive answer but you decide to speculate, is that speculation canon? Will you be deciding certain details of the lore on the spot or are you limiting yourself solely to sourced material, even if it is unpublished developer's notes? Answer: These types of questions come up a lot and although weve answered them in various incarnations it seems to bear repeating. The game itself is always the primary source of canon. Official posts on our website such as the timeline of the game are also canon. Our ancillary products (books, comics, games) can be considered canon but due to the fact that they are oft times created by people outside our studio and need to bend to accommodate their own needs they are a secondary source. We do our best to make certain everything meshes but if contradictions come up, this thread is the perfect place for you to point it out and get clarification. Finally, it is important to note that if there is speculation in one of these answers it comes out of a discussion between many of the devs but is not necessarily instant canon. Its safer to treat a comment like no one is certain or it is theoretically possible as a teaser rather than canon. We will definitely define and add to the canon in these answers, just not every time. |
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A little Budd Dwyer there?|
Originally Posted by Ironik
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Also, may have missed it. But nobody seems to have mentioned Pocket D yet. While it APPEARS to be in the Shard, this isn't for certain, as it's been clearly stated the club IS in it's own little pocket dimension.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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And he's still a jerk either way.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
Especially since it is clear in muiltiple sources that Marcus Cole has different personalities... He speaks sometimes as Statesman/Marcus Cole and sometimes he speaks as Zeus... which means that the Zeus source is a sentient being.
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I gave an answer for what I would say Pocket D is when I quoted multiple people in this thread...
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
A little Budd Dwyer there?
Also, may have missed it. But nobody seems to have mentioned Pocket D yet. While it APPEARS to be in the Shard, this isn't for certain, as it's been clearly stated the club IS in it's own little pocket dimension. |
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Yeah, saw it later reading down the thread.
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Originally Posted by Durakken
I gave an answer for what I would say Pocket D is when I quoted multiple people in this thread...
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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I think Statesman was speaking in hyperbole, as he is known to. It does seem that the gods of CoH-verse follow similar lines as those of the Marvel Universe. Every pantheon put a little into the pot (Pandora's Box) and when it was opened, no single pantheon could claim more influence than another, although the Greeks seems to have gotten the lions share when you look at Statesman and Recluse, but hopefully the new Incarnate system will remedy that.
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Originally Posted by Shadow State
Actually only one of the novels (Web of Arachnos) makes the claim that the gods were only empowered mortals, Freedom Phalanx has Statesman making the claim that the spirit of Zeus is in fact living in him.
From the Canon Fodder thread: The Greek gods aren't active anymore because they made treaties with other gods. Again from the Canon Fodder thread: The game takes precedence when a conflict arises between sources. |
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
No because if it was meant in a hyperbolic way it would mean that Statemen was using his power to get laid.
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That's a clever way of doing it but I think I disagree with the use of the word "entropy" for the concept I think you're trying to get across here.|
Originally Posted by Obsidius
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Going with the definition of entropy used in thermodynamics, maximum entropy would be extremely boring indeed. By definition, maximum entropy would allow for no activity of any kind at all. (For a good understanding of what universal, maximum entropy would be like, I suggest reading Paul Davies' The Last Three Minutes.)
I think maybe what you want here is something more vague like "purity" and "corruption" or maybe something like the Chinese idea of yin and yang.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
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Who, Zeus or Cole? Wait, it doesn't matter, as they're both pretty jerkalicious. |
DLancer points fingers: And he's still a jerk either way. |
Dec out.
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Yeah, pretty much. Niether one is what we might call modest... and one is having some action from any dang woman that can still move.
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Originally Posted by Decorum
Who, Zeus or Cole? Wait, it doesn't matter, as they're both pretty jerkalicious.
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I'm a lore junky. I've got a list as long as my arm of stuff in the game that contradicts facts as given by Hero 1 and Manticore. I've got an even longer list of stuff in the game that contradicts the novels and the comic series. If there's nothing in game about it, I defer to the comic series then the novel because they are the most recent. When something is added to the game that contracts those sources, the game takes precedence.|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
See, the CoH-verse is like a 'real' comic book hero universe. A big, convoluted mess of lore and add-ons shoehorned in without any sense of coherency sometimes even with different sources contradicting eachother. I just hope the Praetorian retcon coming with GR makes some of it better instead of worse.
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The only way to rationalize it at all is to just accept that when new stuff comes out that contradicts facts that were established before, the retcon becomes the real lore, even when that goes against the devs' lore bible. Whatever makes it into the game simply wipes over anything said before, even if they maintain it's supposed to be otherwise after the fact.
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Post your arm-length list, please.
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Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I'm a lore junky. I've got a list as long as my arm of stuff in the game that contradicts facts as given by Hero 1 and Manticore. I've got an even longer list of stuff in the game that contradicts the novels and the comic series. If there's nothing in game about it, I defer to the comic series then the novel because they are the most recent. When something is added to the game that contracts those sources, the game takes precedence.
The only way to rationalize it at all is to just accept that when new stuff comes out that contradicts facts that were established before, the retcon becomes the real lore, even when that goes against the devs' lore bible. Whatever makes it into the game simply wipes over anything said before, even if they maintain it's supposed to be otherwise after the fact. . |
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Johnny... you are going about it the wrong way. The game is ALWAYS the primary source of lore, and therefore it takes precedence regardless. In case of a contradiction, whatever the game says is accurate is, well... accurate. The books and comics only can be seen as a SECONDARY source, and therefore their information is more or less a "guesstimate" and not to be taken as authortity. This is based off of comments from Manticore/Hero 1 themselves.
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That is exactly what I said in the post. The game is the only true canonical source. It even supersedes the devs' internal lore docs (or what's in their heads) because those don't always match up with what's in game. In cases where the game doesn't cover something yet, it's safe to defer to the comic or novels until it does appear in game.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
Johnny... you are going about it the wrong way. The game is ALWAYS the primary source of lore
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Because of the ways games work I'd say... games all have Soft cannon, and follow Dr who lore rules which is whatever is newest is the official canon... I'd also place the site and game itself on equal footing as the site has been approved and gone through multiple channels and it's a lot harder to get things on the site than it is to get an easter egg in the game or just something that was over looked.
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*turns radio on*|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Hrmmm I wonder if there is a system for the names that they have thought of for what each piece means... It's got to be a coordinate system or a registry number...
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"How do you know you are on the side of good?" a Paragon citizen asked him. "How can we even know what is 'good'?"
"The Most High has spoken, even with His own blood," Melancton replied. "Surely we know."
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Yep, assuming a countably infinite number of parallel universes, they'll run out of names soon.|
Originally Posted by Durakken
Hrmmm I wonder if there is a system for the names that they have thought of for what each piece means... It's got to be a coordinate system or a registry number...
If it's a Registry then they have found a lot of earths and need to revamp the system as they are going to run of numbers soon... |
maybe it's not a coordinate system at all. It may be that the Greek letters refer to specific variations on Earth Prime's history. All Nazi Earths get the rho designation and the universes where John Lennon isn't shot start with the letter xi or something. And so on.
I coined a word for this stuff: Cosmonymics, the system of naming universes.
"Civilization advances by extending the number of important operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
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That presumes two things:|
Originally Posted by synthozoic
Yep, assuming a countably infinite number of parallel universes, they'll run out of names soon.
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The current coordinate system is not expandable to use more complex sigils, such as LambdaMuNu - DeltaBeta 94432-908.
The infinity of universes is a 'small infinity' that is made of a set of universes that can be mapped to the whole number counting system. If, OTOH, it's a 'large infinity' such as the set of real numbers, then, yes, we will run out of names.
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**Zombie make head hurt**
Here, you forgot these.
. . . . . . . .
As I was reading that sentence, I imagined a huge gasp in the middle to refill lungs.
Dec out.
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