Hall of Fame requirements need revisiting
The only problem I have with 100 is that it's still low enough to be "gameable." A few popular people in a big SG could get that in a night.
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WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
Two points. One, the plays need to be from separate 100 accounts and two, HoF unlike DC can be lost if enough people play it and find it unworthy. Also, though I'm not from a big SG, I assume many people that are have written arcs and yet there is a grand total of two written in the last 7 months (could be longer, that's how far back I checked) with over 100 plays (excluding old farms).
WN |
I have a Dev's Choice Arc, quite possibly the DC Arc with more promotion than any other arc in the game (including the Guest Author arcs) because it was not just featured by the Dev's in many places for a long period of time, but because it won two awards from them. So, let's look at what this one DC arc has going for it it terms of advantages most arcs do not:
1) Selected as a Nominee by the Devs for the 09 AE Awards. 2) Won its category at the 09 AE Awards. 3) Won the top honor at the 09 AE Awards. 4) Because of the above, was promoted on the forums and main site by the Devs. 5) Promoted to Developer's Choice and was "front page" for many many months. 6) Was nominated for the Player Choice Awards. 7) First Runner up in its Player's Choice Category. 8) Because of all the above, was featured in several off-site web articles. 9) Because of the above was mentioned in several more off-site web articles. 10) Has been live since day one of the AE system. So, thanks to all the above, one would expect it would have a sizable number of ratings, at least enough to get to HoF status (were it not already a Dev's Choice). Nope, 724 ratings as of this moment. If, given all those advantages an arc cannot, in the course of more than a year, reach the number of ratings (never mind the 4.5-5 stars needed) for HoF status, what chance do most arcs, even exceptional arcs, without those advantages have? |
I can't easily explain this. My arc had none of the advantages of the above arc, except #5 (being on page 1). Though of course I like my own arc, I don't think it's a qualitative difference - as one of the 724 players of Sabrina's Tale, I thought it was a fine story. I actually have promoted Two Tickets to Westerly very little; primarily, soliciting feedback on this forum during the challenge itself. Admittedly, some very nice people on Liberty server promoted my arc a lot right after it was dev choice'd. But I wouldn't think that would be nearly as much attention as the Sabrina's Tale received.
Bubbawheat put forward a theory that short arcs get played more, and this is my best guess for why Two Tickets is getting played a lot -- it's one of only two Medium length arcs on the first page, with all others being Long or Very Long.
I imagine that casual MA users must be just looking on the front page and picking the shortest looking story arc to play.
@PW - Police Woman (50 AR/dev blaster on Liberty)
TALOS - PW war journal - alternate contact tree using MA story arcs
=VICE= "Give me Liberty, or give me debt!"
Bubbawheat put forward a theory that short arcs get played more, and this is my best guess for why Two Tickets is getting played a lot -- it's one of only two Medium length arcs on the first page, with all others being Long or Very Long.
I imagine that casual MA users must be just looking on the front page and picking the shortest looking story arc to play. |
Curiously, I had almost the exact opposite experience. Two Tickets for Westerly was published in early February of this year. It was tagged for dev choice on 3/10/2010; at the time it had 30 ratings. After two months, it now has 850 ratings - over 400 plays per month.
I can't easily explain this. My arc had none of the advantages of the above arc, except #5 (being on page 1). Though of course I like my own arc, I don't think it's a qualitative difference - as one of the 724 players of Sabrina's Tale, I thought it was a fine story. I actually have promoted Two Tickets to Westerly very little; primarily, soliciting feedback on this forum during the challenge itself. Admittedly, some very nice people on Liberty server promoted my arc a lot right after it was dev choice'd. But I wouldn't think that would be nearly as much attention as the Sabrina's Tale received. Bubbawheat put forward a theory that short arcs get played more, and this is my best guess for why Two Tickets is getting played a lot -- it's one of only two Medium length arcs on the first page, with all others being Long or Very Long. I imagine that casual MA users must be just looking on the front page and picking the shortest looking story arc to play. |
I think you are probably correct in your evaluation that the relative shortness of Westerly in comparison adds quite a bit to its appeal. In addition, Weaver is also clearly marked as being designed for solo play, requires a lot more reading from the player, and has a slightly narrower level range. All of these things make Westerly have a bit more appeal to teams and people interested in a more casual experience than Weaver.
But there is no doubt that being on the front page and giving normal rewards, (along with providing the option for 'standard' rewards), has contributed to Weaver getting a lot more plays than it otherwise would have during a period of time when player participation in AE is extremely low.
As far as the topic is concerned, I largely agree with loosening the standard for HoF status. I've thought for several months now that it's criminal that Teen Phalanx Forever is not a HoF arc and that at the current rate of play, it might be a year before it gets the final 150 or so plays it needs to get there.
As far as the topic is concerned, I largely agree with loosening the standard for HoF status. I've thought for several months now that it's criminal that Teen Phalanx Forever is not a HoF arc and that at the current rate of play, it might be a year before it gets the final 150 or so plays it needs to get there.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
Jail.Bird
HoF and Dev's choice have done as much to destroy interest in the AE as any nerfs. The high requirements for AE and the minute chance of being lucky enough to catch a Dev's eye probably discouraged a lot of decent mission makers, thus further increasing the ratio of farms over story based missions.
At this point, the vast majority of the community has decided to give the MA a pass, and it just doesn't justify any further resources being wasted on it.
IMO they should simply remove all of the rewards, halt further development of the AE and reallocate resources to projects that would be of benefit to the entire playerbase, because the playerbase is never going to come back to the AE in any significant numbers no matter what they do.
From what I remember from i14 beta, the Devs expected there to be a LOT more HoFs than DCs, like several a month. However they extremely underestimated how many people would be making their own arcs rather than just playing them, originally they really underspecified the amount of storage that was going to be set aside for AE arcs.
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This thread has boiled down to two suggestions (well, two that are actually constructive and don't fall into the "give up on MA and shut the whole thing down" category) - lower the requirements, and get more people interested again in MA. I honestly think both solutions together are the only way HoF would ever get to "a few a month" status. If you lowered the requirements enough to get several a month in at the current rate arcs get played, it'd probably be below the threshold it could be easily gamed by a large SG. I think you'd really need to increase player interest to keep the requirement high enough to make HoF a regular occurrence, but high enough to discourage "gaming" it.
But I also think 'solving the problem' will result in a need to revisit the search window (as has been brought up so many times) - if DC and HoF are front and center, and start taking up page after page, I can see that "eating away" at players looking at non-honored arcs, which would slow down new arcs getting into HoF. In other words, the tendency of casual players to focus on honored arcs means the more honored arcs there are front and center to occupy their time the harder it will be to get the votes for an arc to be honored in the future.
All of that assumes having HoF more common than DC is the "way to go" though.
M.A. Arcs
Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice! )
Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)
The Golden Age Secret of the Paragon Society is in the same category in my book. I have recommended it for DC in the new thread along with several other people, but I don't think anyone is monitoring that or they don't have the time to play the arcs listed there. That's another good reason to adjust Hall Of Fame down.
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I'd settle for the rate of HoF approaching the rate of DC. Now that I think of it though, when was the last time we got a DC that wasn't the winner or runner-up of an Aeon's challenge?
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
"Golden Age" is newer and hasn't received as much attention. It wasn't nominated for player's choice awards, and the official contest, and isn't being recommended left right and center, because not as many people have played it. It's an excellent arc, and if it had been published in the early days of MA it might be in the same boat as "Teen Phalanx," but for the purposes of this discussion all it does it highlight the lowered interest in AE.
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I'd settle for the rate of HoF approaching the rate of DC. Now that I think of it though, when was the last time we got a DC that wasn't the winner or runner-up of an Aeon's challenge? |
Jail.Bird
What about all those Finalists from the 1st Architect Awards? That pretty much ended up being the silver medal where nobody remembers you at all, especially since there was no special category given or actual promotion for it. There was no point in even announcing them really.
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Jail.Bird
"Golden Age" is newer and hasn't received as much attention. It wasn't nominated for player's choice awards, and the official contest, and isn't being recommended left right and center, because not as many people have played it. It's an excellent arc, and if it had been published in the early days of MA it might be in the same boat as "Teen Phalanx," but for the purposes of this discussion all it does it highlight the lowered interest in AE.
I'd settle for the rate of HoF approaching the rate of DC. Now that I think of it though, when was the last time we got a DC that wasn't the winner or runner-up of an Aeon's challenge? |
Edit: This list is, I believe, all of the Dev Choices since last November. I may have missed 1 or more, but you'll notice that one of the DC's awarded for the 1st contest appears to have been given DC status before the thread announcing the winner of the contest was posted. So I may be wrong that Purification was a 1st Challenge Entry, but I don't think so. You'll also notice that the last actual Developer's Choice was awarded in the middle of March, which is a fairly long dry spell after the relative regularity with which they were being awarded for the several months prior. This probably has to do more with Dr. Aeon devoting his attention to working on the XP problem and possibly doing final testing on the arcs he wrote and developed for I17.
Pandas Versus Rikti 10/28/09
Astoria in D Minor 11/4/09
Escalation 11/25/09
Control+Alt+Reset 1/6/10
A Penny for your Thoughts 1/13/10
A Mythos of Magical Mysteries 1/27/10
Purification 2/10/10 1st contest entry
Out of Place 2/16/10 1st contest winner
Night Calls the Weaver 3/3/10 - 2nd contest winner
Two Tickets to Westerly 3/10/10 - 2nd contest entry
A Heart Breaking Story 3/17/10 - 2nd contest entry
I have to mostly disagree and in fact I found almost the opposite to be true. For my current 5 stars 100+ plays arc at I did almost no advertising for of any type before it was at over 100 plays and then really only very select advertising. Also, I was away from CoX for an almost two month break. It was also released after I stopped doing reviews.
The no hard selling was an experiment on my part because in the past I had really "donned fur coats and twenty pounds of bling." What I found before was that by seeking reviews, plays, etc. I would often draw people to play an arc that maybe was not their cup of tea which resulted in all of my arcs settling at 4 stars. This time, beyond getting friendly MA authors and a few friends to play it (this got me to around 10 plays) I just let things happen organically. |
That way people who read the description and liked the idea of a Golden Age style comic book arc would play the arc before it got visible enough for the more general public to give it a shot just because it had 5 stars with a decent number of plays.
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Five stars means a heck of a lot, regardless of subject matter and history of plays. So does name appeal; I can't help but think that those of you who don't have to work at adverting are few and in that spot due to "who you are" at this point, on the fourms, in your SGs, what have you.
I think the fact that it's come down to that says a lot about the state of AE, which is starting to look bleaker and bleaker to me. If the devs lose the mass of only-semi-informed players, getting them to even give the AE "another chance" gets harder by the day.
The Hall of Fame requirements has two big problems.
One is that 5 stars is somewhat easy to get but almost impossible to maintain, since, as we have pointed out a billion times, a single 1-star rating for some reason carries a much greater importance than a single 5-star rating. One 1-star "weighs" as much as five 5-star ratings.
The other problem is that an arc may be extremely beloved and have very dedicated fans but if it has 999 fans who play it religiously once a week for two thousand years, it will still never get a hall of fame ranking. A farm that someone made in 30 minutes and thousand people played once, 5-starred as a "gratuity" to the author, and then forgot about can make it into HoF in an afternoon.
Every completed play of an arc should count, even from the same account. That's the only way to really know how popular an arc really is. Of course this wouldn't include the author's account. Sure, someone might sit around and play their own arcs on their second and third accounts, but unless their arcs are good enough all it takes is a few (very few) people to rate below 5 stars and it will drop out of the Hall of Fame in no time.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
The Hall of Fame requirements has two big problems.
One is that 5 stars is somewhat easy to get but almost impossible to maintain, since, as we have pointed out a billion times, a single 1-star rating for some reason carries a much greater importance than a single 5-star rating. One 1-star "weighs" as much as five 5-star ratings. |
The other problem is that an arc may be extremely beloved and have very dedicated fans but if it has 999 fans who play it religiously once a week for two thousand years, it will still never get a hall of fame ranking. A farm that someone made in 30 minutes and thousand people played once, 5-starred as a "gratuity" to the author, and then forgot about can make it into HoF in an afternoon. Every completed play of an arc should count, even from the same account. That's the only way to really know how popular an arc really is. Of course this wouldn't include the author's account. Sure, someone might sit around and play their own arcs on their second and third accounts, but unless their arcs are good enough all it takes is a few (very few) people to rate below 5 stars and it will drop out of the Hall of Fame in no time. |
WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
I agree with Airhead's suggestion, Hall of Fame shouldn't be acquired from an average vote being in the 5 star range, but the total number of 5 star votes. 100 is probably a good number, though I haven't looked at some of the high play 4 star arcs recently to know if there's anything less than stellar. Though I suppose it wouldn't be that bad of a thing if a lot of great arcs became Hall of Fame along with a couple less than stellar ones. Heck, Wild Hogs grossed over 100 million, so there's no accounting for some people's taste.
I agree with Airhead's suggestion, Hall of Fame shouldn't be acquired from an average vote being in the 5 star range, but the total number of 5 star votes. 100 is probably a good number, though I haven't looked at some of the high play 4 star arcs recently to know if there's anything less than stellar. Though I suppose it wouldn't be that bad of a thing if a lot of great arcs became Hall of Fame along with a couple less than stellar ones. Heck, Wild Hogs grossed over 100 million, so there's no accounting for some people's taste.
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This is clearly illustrated by the fact that 9 of the 10 (now 9 out of 11 since another arc hit over 100 plays 5 stars last week) are all from Pre-I15 and 7 of those were published in the first 2 weeks of MA launch.
100 5 stars regardless of other ratings for arcs post I-15 I would support, but if you include pre-15 stuff I feel it would be too skewed.
WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
I wonder how many arcs that are sitting below the radar with an average of 4 stars would jump to HOF status if the requirement were changed to 100 five star votes?
I'm not saying it would be good or bad to have some arcs fall into that category and gain HOF status. But I have no doubt that it will make some players upset that these formally 4 star arcs leapfrogged into HOF status. Especially if one or more of those were farming arcs.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
I wonder how many arcs that are sitting below the radar with an average of 4 stars would jump to HOF status if the requirement were changed to 100 five star votes?
I'm not saying it would be good or bad to have some arcs fall into that category and gain HOF status. But I have no doubt that it will make some players upset that these formally 4 star arcs leapfrogged into HOF status. Especially if one or more of those were farming arcs. |
WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
If anything, dragging old farms into the light might be the only way to get the devs to remove them.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
I don't know what the magic number should be, but I do think that a 5 star average after 1000 plays is absurd. I think that x number of 5 star votes, rather than an average, would be more appropriate.
The only problem I have with 100 is that it's still low enough to be "gameable." A few popular people in a big SG could get that in a night.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad