Hall of Fame requirements need revisiting


airhead

 

Posted

I don't know what the magic number should be, but I do think that a 5 star average after 1000 plays is absurd. I think that x number of 5 star votes, rather than an average, would be more appropriate.

The only problem I have with 100 is that it's still low enough to be "gameable." A few popular people in a big SG could get that in a night.


50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea View Post
The only problem I have with 100 is that it's still low enough to be "gameable." A few popular people in a big SG could get that in a night.
Two points. One, the plays need to be from separate 100 accounts and two, HoF unlike DC can be lost if enough people play it and find it unworthy. Also, though I'm not from a big SG, I assume many people that are have written arcs and yet there is a grand total of two written in the last 7 months (could be longer, that's how far back I checked) with over 100 plays (excluding old farms).

WN


Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste

or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story

 

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Originally Posted by Wrong_Number View Post
Two points. One, the plays need to be from separate 100 accounts and two, HoF unlike DC can be lost if enough people play it and find it unworthy. Also, though I'm not from a big SG, I assume many people that are have written arcs and yet there is a grand total of two written in the last 7 months (could be longer, that's how far back I checked) with over 100 plays (excluding old farms).

WN
I could have sworn that way back when, the Dev's made HoF a "once there, it stays" thing to keep people for griefing the arc by downrating so it is dropped from HoF.


 

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Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
I could have sworn that way back when, the Dev's made HoF a "once there, it stays" thing to keep people for griefing the arc by downrating so it is dropped from HoF.
Yeah, when's the last time somebody actually lost their HoF status, aside from that one farm that ended up in there?


 

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Originally Posted by Redbone View Post
I have a Dev's Choice Arc, quite possibly the DC Arc with more promotion than any other arc in the game (including the Guest Author arcs) because it was not just featured by the Dev's in many places for a long period of time, but because it won two awards from them. So, let's look at what this one DC arc has going for it it terms of advantages most arcs do not:

1) Selected as a Nominee by the Devs for the 09 AE Awards.
2) Won its category at the 09 AE Awards.
3) Won the top honor at the 09 AE Awards.
4) Because of the above, was promoted on the forums and main site by the Devs.
5) Promoted to Developer's Choice and was "front page" for many many months.
6) Was nominated for the Player Choice Awards.
7) First Runner up in its Player's Choice Category.
8) Because of all the above, was featured in several off-site web articles.
9) Because of the above was mentioned in several more off-site web articles.
10) Has been live since day one of the AE system.

So, thanks to all the above, one would expect it would have a sizable number of ratings, at least enough to get to HoF status (were it not already a Dev's Choice). Nope, 724 ratings as of this moment.

If, given all those advantages an arc cannot, in the course of more than a year, reach the number of ratings (never mind the 4.5-5 stars needed) for HoF status, what chance do most arcs, even exceptional arcs, without those advantages have?
Curiously, I had almost the exact opposite experience. Two Tickets for Westerly was published in early February of this year. It was tagged for dev choice on 3/10/2010; at the time it had 30 ratings. After two months, it now has 850 ratings - over 400 plays per month.

I can't easily explain this. My arc had none of the advantages of the above arc, except #5 (being on page 1). Though of course I like my own arc, I don't think it's a qualitative difference - as one of the 724 players of Sabrina's Tale, I thought it was a fine story. I actually have promoted Two Tickets to Westerly very little; primarily, soliciting feedback on this forum during the challenge itself. Admittedly, some very nice people on Liberty server promoted my arc a lot right after it was dev choice'd. But I wouldn't think that would be nearly as much attention as the Sabrina's Tale received.

Bubbawheat put forward a theory that short arcs get played more, and this is my best guess for why Two Tickets is getting played a lot -- it's one of only two Medium length arcs on the first page, with all others being Long or Very Long.

I imagine that casual MA users must be just looking on the front page and picking the shortest looking story arc to play.


@PW - Police Woman (50 AR/dev blaster on Liberty)
TALOS - PW war journal - alternate contact tree using MA story arcs
=VICE= "Give me Liberty, or give me debt!"

 

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Originally Posted by PoliceWoman View Post
Bubbawheat put forward a theory that short arcs get played more, and this is my best guess for why Two Tickets is getting played a lot -- it's one of only two Medium length arcs on the first page, with all others being Long or Very Long.

I imagine that casual MA users must be just looking on the front page and picking the shortest looking story arc to play.
I would be willing to agree with that statement with few reservations based on the anicdotal evidence for short arcs, For instance, my "one room challenge" mission Barroom Brawl has something like 177 ratings, more than any other I've published with the exception of Sabrina.


 

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Originally Posted by PoliceWoman View Post
Curiously, I had almost the exact opposite experience. Two Tickets for Westerly was published in early February of this year. It was tagged for dev choice on 3/10/2010; at the time it had 30 ratings. After two months, it now has 850 ratings - over 400 plays per month.

I can't easily explain this. My arc had none of the advantages of the above arc, except #5 (being on page 1). Though of course I like my own arc, I don't think it's a qualitative difference - as one of the 724 players of Sabrina's Tale, I thought it was a fine story. I actually have promoted Two Tickets to Westerly very little; primarily, soliciting feedback on this forum during the challenge itself. Admittedly, some very nice people on Liberty server promoted my arc a lot right after it was dev choice'd. But I wouldn't think that would be nearly as much attention as the Sabrina's Tale received.

Bubbawheat put forward a theory that short arcs get played more, and this is my best guess for why Two Tickets is getting played a lot -- it's one of only two Medium length arcs on the first page, with all others being Long or Very Long.

I imagine that casual MA users must be just looking on the front page and picking the shortest looking story arc to play.
My experience with Night Calls the Weaver is similar to this, though on a much smaller scale and I've observed in recent weeks that its 'run' - to put it in movie terms - is winding down significantly. At the end of the contest, it had approximately 25 plays - which was in February and now it sits at about 330, which averages out to a little over 100 per month which would have made it HoF-worthy in approximately ten months, assuming it would have gotten anywhere near the same rate of play under normal conditions, which it, of course, would not have.

I think you are probably correct in your evaluation that the relative shortness of Westerly in comparison adds quite a bit to its appeal. In addition, Weaver is also clearly marked as being designed for solo play, requires a lot more reading from the player, and has a slightly narrower level range. All of these things make Westerly have a bit more appeal to teams and people interested in a more casual experience than Weaver.

But there is no doubt that being on the front page and giving normal rewards, (along with providing the option for 'standard' rewards), has contributed to Weaver getting a lot more plays than it otherwise would have during a period of time when player participation in AE is extremely low.

As far as the topic is concerned, I largely agree with loosening the standard for HoF status. I've thought for several months now that it's criminal that Teen Phalanx Forever is not a HoF arc and that at the current rate of play, it might be a year before it gets the final 150 or so plays it needs to get there.


 

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Originally Posted by Sister_Twelve View Post
As far as the topic is concerned, I largely agree with loosening the standard for HoF status. I've thought for several months now that it's criminal that Teen Phalanx Forever is not a HoF arc and that at the current rate of play, it might be a year before it gets the final 150 or so plays it needs to get there.
This. If this isn't a prime example of an arc that belongs in the Hall of Fame I don't know what is.


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
This. If this isn't a prime example of an arc that belongs in the Hall of Fame I don't know what is.
The Golden Age Secret of the Paragon Society is in the same category in my book. I have recommended it for DC in the new thread along with several other people, but I don't think anyone is monitoring that or they don't have the time to play the arcs listed there. That's another good reason to adjust Hall Of Fame down.


Jail.Bird

 

Posted

HoF and Dev's choice have done as much to destroy interest in the AE as any nerfs. The high requirements for AE and the minute chance of being lucky enough to catch a Dev's eye probably discouraged a lot of decent mission makers, thus further increasing the ratio of farms over story based missions.

At this point, the vast majority of the community has decided to give the MA a pass, and it just doesn't justify any further resources being wasted on it.

IMO they should simply remove all of the rewards, halt further development of the AE and reallocate resources to projects that would be of benefit to the entire playerbase, because the playerbase is never going to come back to the AE in any significant numbers no matter what they do.


 

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Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
From what I remember from i14 beta, the Devs expected there to be a LOT more HoFs than DCs, like several a month. However they extremely underestimated how many people would be making their own arcs rather than just playing them, originally they really underspecified the amount of storage that was going to be set aside for AE arcs.
What's odd about HoF is that, at first, I saw it the same way. That DC was supposed to the "rare" way to get a "free slot" (or, put another way, the "rare honor") and HoF, by virtue of the large payer base, was supposed to be the more common (albeit still "not common") source of a free slot ("honor") since the player base would be able to "review" a whole lot more arcs than the devs. That there are lots of DC, but HoF is the "legendary" status that never happens is ironic.

This thread has boiled down to two suggestions (well, two that are actually constructive and don't fall into the "give up on MA and shut the whole thing down" category) - lower the requirements, and get more people interested again in MA. I honestly think both solutions together are the only way HoF would ever get to "a few a month" status. If you lowered the requirements enough to get several a month in at the current rate arcs get played, it'd probably be below the threshold it could be easily gamed by a large SG. I think you'd really need to increase player interest to keep the requirement high enough to make HoF a regular occurrence, but high enough to discourage "gaming" it.

But I also think 'solving the problem' will result in a need to revisit the search window (as has been brought up so many times) - if DC and HoF are front and center, and start taking up page after page, I can see that "eating away" at players looking at non-honored arcs, which would slow down new arcs getting into HoF. In other words, the tendency of casual players to focus on honored arcs means the more honored arcs there are front and center to occupy their time the harder it will be to get the votes for an arc to be honored in the future.

All of that assumes having HoF more common than DC is the "way to go" though.


M.A. Arcs
Intended for high level play: The Primus Trilogy (Arc #s 10931, 283821, 283825), "Freakshow U" (Arc #189073), Purification (Arc #352381, Dev's Choice! )
Intended for low level play: "Learning the Ropes" (Arc #100304), "Cracking Skulls" (Arc #115935), "The Lazarus Project" (Arc #124906)

 

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Originally Posted by Jail_Bird View Post
The Golden Age Secret of the Paragon Society is in the same category in my book. I have recommended it for DC in the new thread along with several other people, but I don't think anyone is monitoring that or they don't have the time to play the arcs listed there. That's another good reason to adjust Hall Of Fame down.
"Golden Age" is newer and hasn't received as much attention. It wasn't nominated for player's choice awards, and the official contest, and isn't being recommended left right and center, because not as many people have played it. It's an excellent arc, and if it had been published in the early days of MA it might be in the same boat as "Teen Phalanx," but for the purposes of this discussion all it does it highlight the lowered interest in AE.

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Originally Posted by Coulomb2 View Post
All of that assumes having HoF more common than DC is the "way to go" though.
I'd settle for the rate of HoF approaching the rate of DC. Now that I think of it though, when was the last time we got a DC that wasn't the winner or runner-up of an Aeon's challenge?


Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper

Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World

 

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
I'd settle for the rate of HoF approaching the rate of DC. Now that I think of it though, when was the last time we got a DC that wasn't the winner or runner-up of an Aeon's challenge?
At least 4 months now. What about all those Finalists from the 1st Architect Awards? That pretty much ended up being the silver medal where nobody remembers you at all, especially since there was no special category given or actual promotion for it. There was no point in even announcing them really.


 

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
"Golden Age" is newer and hasn't received as much attention. It wasn't nominated for player's choice awards, and the official contest, and isn't being recommended left right and center, because not as many people have played it. It's an excellent arc, and if it had been published in the early days of MA it might be in the same boat as "Teen Phalanx," but for the purposes of this discussion all it does it highlight the lowered interest in AE.
I see your point. To be fair GASOTPS (wow!) was made after the official awards and I don't think it qualified to be nominated in any of the PC Awards run since it was created. Wait, just checked and I take that back. It's contact was nominated and won the PC in December. The other two, Best New Author and Short Arcs it did not quailify for nomination.

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I'd settle for the rate of HoF approaching the rate of DC. Now that I think of it though, when was the last time we got a DC that wasn't the winner or runner-up of an Aeon's challenge?
A non-challenge DC? Jeez six, seven months, maybe more?


Jail.Bird

 

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Originally Posted by Lazarus View Post
What about all those Finalists from the 1st Architect Awards? That pretty much ended up being the silver medal where nobody remembers you at all, especially since there was no special category given or actual promotion for it. There was no point in even announcing them really.
There were finalists?


Jail.Bird

 

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Originally Posted by Jail_Bird View Post
There were finalists?
Exactly.


 

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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction View Post
"Golden Age" is newer and hasn't received as much attention. It wasn't nominated for player's choice awards, and the official contest, and isn't being recommended left right and center, because not as many people have played it. It's an excellent arc, and if it had been published in the early days of MA it might be in the same boat as "Teen Phalanx," but for the purposes of this discussion all it does it highlight the lowered interest in AE.



I'd settle for the rate of HoF approaching the rate of DC. Now that I think of it though, when was the last time we got a DC that wasn't the winner or runner-up of an Aeon's challenge?
As near as I can tell, the last non-contest arc to make Dev's Choice was "A Mythos of Magical Mysteries" on 1/27/10. About 3 months then. However, as near as I can tell, it really wasn't that much longer than the three that were selected from the second challenge, which were all selected, again, as near as I can tell, in March.

Edit: This list is, I believe, all of the Dev Choices since last November. I may have missed 1 or more, but you'll notice that one of the DC's awarded for the 1st contest appears to have been given DC status before the thread announcing the winner of the contest was posted. So I may be wrong that Purification was a 1st Challenge Entry, but I don't think so. You'll also notice that the last actual Developer's Choice was awarded in the middle of March, which is a fairly long dry spell after the relative regularity with which they were being awarded for the several months prior. This probably has to do more with Dr. Aeon devoting his attention to working on the XP problem and possibly doing final testing on the arcs he wrote and developed for I17.

Pandas Versus Rikti 10/28/09
Astoria in D Minor 11/4/09
Escalation 11/25/09
Control+Alt+Reset 1/6/10
A Penny for your Thoughts 1/13/10
A Mythos of Magical Mysteries 1/27/10
Purification 2/10/10 1st contest entry
Out of Place 2/16/10 1st contest winner
Night Calls the Weaver 3/3/10 - 2nd contest winner
Two Tickets to Westerly 3/10/10 - 2nd contest entry
A Heart Breaking Story 3/17/10 - 2nd contest entry


 

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Originally Posted by Wrong_Number View Post
I have to mostly disagree and in fact I found almost the opposite to be true. For my current 5 stars 100+ plays arc at I did almost no advertising for of any type before it was at over 100 plays and then really only very select advertising. Also, I was away from CoX for an almost two month break. It was also released after I stopped doing reviews.

The no hard selling was an experiment on my part because in the past I had really "donned fur coats and twenty pounds of bling." What I found before was that by seeking reviews, plays, etc. I would often draw people to play an arc that maybe was not their cup of tea which resulted in all of my arcs settling at 4 stars. This time, beyond getting friendly MA authors and a few friends to play it (this got me to around 10 plays) I just let things happen organically.
With you being Wrong Number, that in an of itself is a certain amount of advertising, I think. As I'm not Wrong Number - and probably don't write arcs that have such cross appeal - I do have to work hard in that fur coat and bling. Or did anyways; these days nothing seems to work except....

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Originally Posted by Wrong_Number View Post
That way people who read the description and liked the idea of a Golden Age style comic book arc would play the arc before it got visible enough for the more general public to give it a shot just because it had 5 stars with a decent number of plays.
Bingo. Despite being a less-than-a-name creator, my WickerWork Khan arc was getting a couple of plays a week because it sat at five stars and because I was busting my hump to sell it on the forums here - and that was when it was still in the 20-plays or so range, not 100+. Once it hit about 67 plays it got dropped into the 4-star box of shame and literally no one's touched it since (even despite a couple of new "sells" here on the forums - guess I'll have to retire that fur coat ).

Five stars means a heck of a lot, regardless of subject matter and history of plays. So does name appeal; I can't help but think that those of you who don't have to work at adverting are few and in that spot due to "who you are" at this point, on the fourms, in your SGs, what have you.

I think the fact that it's come down to that says a lot about the state of AE, which is starting to look bleaker and bleaker to me. If the devs lose the mass of only-semi-informed players, getting them to even give the AE "another chance" gets harder by the day.


 

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The Hall of Fame requirements has two big problems.

One is that 5 stars is somewhat easy to get but almost impossible to maintain, since, as we have pointed out a billion times, a single 1-star rating for some reason carries a much greater importance than a single 5-star rating. One 1-star "weighs" as much as five 5-star ratings.

The other problem is that an arc may be extremely beloved and have very dedicated fans but if it has 999 fans who play it religiously once a week for two thousand years, it will still never get a hall of fame ranking. A farm that someone made in 30 minutes and thousand people played once, 5-starred as a "gratuity" to the author, and then forgot about can make it into HoF in an afternoon.

Every completed play of an arc should count, even from the same account. That's the only way to really know how popular an arc really is. Of course this wouldn't include the author's account. Sure, someone might sit around and play their own arcs on their second and third accounts, but unless their arcs are good enough all it takes is a few (very few) people to rate below 5 stars and it will drop out of the Hall of Fame in no time.


Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522

 

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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg View Post
The Hall of Fame requirements has two big problems.

One is that 5 stars is somewhat easy to get but almost impossible to maintain, since, as we have pointed out a billion times, a single 1-star rating for some reason carries a much greater importance than a single 5-star rating. One 1-star "weighs" as much as five 5-star ratings.
It's worse than that. It takes 7 stars just to bring the average up to 4.5 which will round to 5, but even with those 7 stars just 1 4 star at that point drops it back to a 4 star.

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The other problem is that an arc may be extremely beloved and have very dedicated fans but if it has 999 fans who play it religiously once a week for two thousand years, it will still never get a hall of fame ranking. A farm that someone made in 30 minutes and thousand people played once, 5-starred as a "gratuity" to the author, and then forgot about can make it into HoF in an afternoon.

Every completed play of an arc should count, even from the same account. That's the only way to really know how popular an arc really is. Of course this wouldn't include the author's account. Sure, someone might sit around and play their own arcs on their second and third accounts, but unless their arcs are good enough all it takes is a few (very few) people to rate below 5 stars and it will drop out of the Hall of Fame in no time.
I think this is another workable idea that should be easy to execute. I do fairly regularly get replays, though I have no idea what arc(s) are getting them. It would be nice if they counted for something.


WN


Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste

or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story

 

Posted

I agree with Airhead's suggestion, Hall of Fame shouldn't be acquired from an average vote being in the 5 star range, but the total number of 5 star votes. 100 is probably a good number, though I haven't looked at some of the high play 4 star arcs recently to know if there's anything less than stellar. Though I suppose it wouldn't be that bad of a thing if a lot of great arcs became Hall of Fame along with a couple less than stellar ones. Heck, Wild Hogs grossed over 100 million, so there's no accounting for some people's taste.


 

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Originally Posted by Bubbawheat View Post
I agree with Airhead's suggestion, Hall of Fame shouldn't be acquired from an average vote being in the 5 star range, but the total number of 5 star votes. 100 is probably a good number, though I haven't looked at some of the high play 4 star arcs recently to know if there's anything less than stellar. Though I suppose it wouldn't be that bad of a thing if a lot of great arcs became Hall of Fame along with a couple less than stellar ones. Heck, Wild Hogs grossed over 100 million, so there's no accounting for some people's taste.
The only issue with making 100 5 stars (basically ignoring anything lower) is the other part of my initial post that's gotten glossed over. Arcs published before I15 have a GIANT advantage over arcs published after. I have not researched it, but would assume that 100's if not 1000's of arcs published pre-I15 would instantly meet this requirement just because of the volume of plays then.

This is clearly illustrated by the fact that 9 of the 10 (now 9 out of 11 since another arc hit over 100 plays 5 stars last week) are all from Pre-I15 and 7 of those were published in the first 2 weeks of MA launch.

100 5 stars regardless of other ratings for arcs post I-15 I would support, but if you include pre-15 stuff I feel it would be too skewed.


WN


Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste

or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story

 

Posted

I wonder how many arcs that are sitting below the radar with an average of 4 stars would jump to HOF status if the requirement were changed to 100 five star votes?

I'm not saying it would be good or bad to have some arcs fall into that category and gain HOF status. But I have no doubt that it will make some players upset that these formally 4 star arcs leapfrogged into HOF status. Especially if one or more of those were farming arcs.


50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM

Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad

 

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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea View Post
I wonder how many arcs that are sitting below the radar with an average of 4 stars would jump to HOF status if the requirement were changed to 100 five star votes?

I'm not saying it would be good or bad to have some arcs fall into that category and gain HOF status. But I have no doubt that it will make some players upset that these formally 4 star arcs leapfrogged into HOF status. Especially if one or more of those were farming arcs.
You may have missed it earlier in the thread, but I did some research on arcs published since 11/1/09 to now. There are a grand total of 3 arcs in the last 7 months with over 100 plays and 2 of those are at 5 stars the other is at 4 currently. That's out of over 11,000 arcs. There are a couple old defunct farms with over 100 plays in there too. This I don't see as an issue since if they were exploit based they should not be in the system anyways.


WN


Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste

or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story