Hall of Fame requirements need revisiting
By
airhead,
Posted on: 2010-05-13 08:24 in Mission Architect
I just want to throw my voice in this thread too.
MA is such a wonderful tool. A tool NCsoft should be using and promoting vigorously. The things that could be offered through MA beyond story telling.
Example:
I got the Origins pack early and put together a fashion show displaying all the new capes and auras. This thing has been so well recieved. Already up to like 25 five star votes. If the servers were up I'd post some of the comments. To sum them up. Most people were like THANKS the COX devs should be doing this!
Anyway you see my point I hope. You devs are missing out on a free tool right at your disposal. Could you imagine how much heat MA would get if the devs started putting the player packs in there?
Some people who went to look at the Origins pack told me that was the first AE mission they'd ever ran. Think of all the people you could bring into the AE building devs by just putting out something like I made.
Back to the topic. I am all about good story telling. It's predictable but kind of sucks that Arcs I put my heart and soul into don't get played. While something I put together in a few hours gets 25 five star votes in a day.
Despite all the bugs and very minimalistic options offered. There's lots of people out there who WANT to make missions. I'm running out of slots fast and have only just began my AE journey.
People like Wrong Number who'd LOVE to have some damn freedom. She can't even participate in contests anymore without deleting one of her stories she's labored over for years.
The rush is over. NCsoft could make some money off those of us interested in buying more Arc slots. Take off the 8 cap already! The few of us left interested in creating good stories should be allowed to do so.
I totally understand WHY the 8 cap was there in the beginning. But now it's just pointless. NCsoft would make money and the writers could write again! Both parties win if the cap was lifted.
Completely off-topic, but...
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You're not the first person I've seen mention this. How are people getting it early?
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Originally Posted by Ramification TM
... I got the Origins pack early...
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Where do we go from here?
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I won it at the Halloween event.|
Originally Posted by Hero Prime
Completely off-topic, but...
You're not the first person I've seen mention this. How are people getting it early? |
But seems like it's been around. Saw something on the testing forum it was leaked a while back. Don't know much about that.
I was thinking about something slightly off-topic, but still slightly relevant to this. I think it would be helpful to change the ratings into a like/dislike system, but leave the star ratings. 1 and 2 stars would convert to dislike, and 3-5 stars would convert to like. Then the star rating would be based on the percentage of likes to dislikes. Something like 90% like for a 5 star, I was thinking about figuring out some calculations before posting it on its own though.
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That idea has been brought forward many times but the Devs never want to even comment on it. I also think that a simple Like/Dislike system like that used on YouTube would be much better. They also originally had star ratings but it was heavily abused and became quite inaccurate as, like with AE here, no two people use the same criteria for 5-star, 4-star, and so on.|
Originally Posted by Bubbawheat
I was thinking about something slightly off-topic, but still slightly relevant to this. I think it would be helpful to change the ratings into a like/dislike system, but leave the star ratings. 1 and 2 stars would convert to dislike, and 3-5 stars would convert to like. Then the star rating would be based on the percentage of likes to dislikes. Something like 90% like for a 5 star, I was thinking about figuring out some calculations before posting it on its own though.
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Another site that uses a similar system is places like Fallout Nexus and such, which are websites for hosting game mods. There ratings come in the form of "I Endorse This Mod" or "I Do Not Endorse This Mod". It's very simple and works very well, especially as not everyone will like everything about a mod and a 5-star system would quickly degenerate into nitpicking like it does with AE arcs.
I also believe that you should be required to at least finish the first mission of the arc before being able to rate it. That would cut down on much of the Run By Griefing. If an arc is so horrible that no one even wants to finish the first mission then the lack of ratings will cause it to sink to the bottom. Also the author of a horrible arc can't as easily have their friends just 5-star it if they have to actually play it first.
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Quick thoughts on this.|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
That idea has been brought forward many times but the Devs never want to even comment on it. I also think that a simple Like/Dislike system like that used on YouTube would be much better. They also originally had star ratings but it was heavily abused and became quite inaccurate as, like with AE here, no two people use the same criteria for 5-star, 4-star, and so on.
Another site that uses a similar system is places like Fallout Nexus and such, which are websites for hosting game mods. There ratings come in the form of "I Endorse This Mod" or "I Do Not Endorse This Mod". It's very simple and works very well, especially as not everyone will like everything about a mod and a 5-star system would quickly degenerate into nitpicking like it does with AE arcs. I also believe that you should be required to at least finish the first mission of the arc before being able to rate it. That would cut down on much of the Run By Griefing. If an arc is so horrible that no one even wants to finish the first mission then the lack of ratings will cause it to sink to the bottom. Also the author of a horrible arc can't as easily have their friends just 5-star it if they have to actually play it first. |
Amazon shows that star ratings can work. However, they aren't anonymous either. I worry that a wholesale like/dislike system may support farm missions more. Likewise, finishing the first mission before you rate is sorely needed yet may have some of the same problems.
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How so? I'm honestly curious why you think so. It seems to me that finishing the first mission would put farms and actual arcs on a somewhat equal footing...but it would still be easier to "dislike" a farm, due to the fact that farms are designed to be easy to complete. On the other hand, it wouldn't make it any easier to "like" a farm than it is now.|
Originally Posted by Zamuel
I worry that a wholesale like/dislike system may support farm missions more. Likewise, finishing the first mission before you rate is sorely needed yet may have some of the same problems.
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The problem with simply moving away from stars and to another rating system is that it accomplishes nothing when drive-by griefing is so easy. You can just as easily drive down an arc's like/dislike percentage as you can its star average. It honestly ticks me off quite a bit that there has been no dev comment on this whatsoever. They were wrong. We have absolutely no need to be able to 1-star anything so horrible we can't finish it. It can sit there in 0-rating obscurity forever.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Didn't think of it that way. Forgot about the whole clickie business and was thinking of having to finish the entire farm. Bah, I'm too innocent minded.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
How so? I'm honestly curious why you think so. It seems to me that finishing the first mission would put farms and actual arcs on a somewhat equal footing...but it would still be easier to "dislike" a farm, due to the fact that farms are designed to be easy to complete. On the other hand, it wouldn't make it any easier to "like" a farm than it is now.
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Ok, let's do some calculations:
First, an arc that is pretty much 5 star quality, but has had a few griefers, and some people that don't give 5 stars to anything.
4 x 1 star
0 x 2 star
7 x 3 star
15 x 4 star
50 x 5 star
in game star rating: 3 stars
like/dislike star rating: 5 stars (94% like)
Another arc that has early 5 star potential, but gets hit by a couple 1-star griefers.
2 x 1 star
5 x 4 star
18 x 5 star
in game star rating: 4 stars
like/dislike star rating: 5 stars (92% like)
And a mildly popular, middle of the road 4 star arc that some people just genuinely don't like.
10 x 1 star
5 x 2 star
14 x 3 star
37 x 4 star
19 x 5 star
in game star rating: 4 stars (3.58)
like/dislike star rating: 4 stars (82%)
Not to mention that the 1-star griefing will be much more difficult when a single dislike-vote doesn't cancel out 7 like-votes, or whatever the rate is. With a like/dislike system each vote carries the same weight. It's a whole lot more fair than the current system.
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
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That as well! Let's say you have a new arc and it's gotten 10 ratings and sitting at 5-stars. A single 1-star rating can totally nuke that and since each subsequent rating of less than 5-stars makes the average worse over time the climb back up to 5-stars becomes increasingly difficult. This is why we have such a huge percentage of arcs stuck in the 4-star range, plus the sorting does not take the number of votes into account either so arcs with 3 votes and a 5-star average are listed dozens of pages ahead of arcs with hundreds of votes and a 4-star average. Like/Dislike would put them on a much more even footing.
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Originally Posted by FredrikSvanberg
Not to mention that the 1-star griefing will be much more difficult when a single dislike-vote doesn't cancel out 7 like-votes, or whatever the rate is. With a like/dislike system each vote carries the same weight. It's a whole lot more fair than the current system.
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The rating system and the Hall of Fame we currently have is about as fair as the mafia supervising election results. This is only my opinion, but I feel that the only way to re-focus on quality in AE would be to scrap the entire Hall of Fame idea along with the current rating system. A) it's not working as intended and b) it can and has been abused for or against arcs or players by other players and c) it has almost nothing to do with quality. The Devs Choice can stay, that is not being run unfairly.
- What we need is to have the devs play more arcs and while we don't necessarily need monthly additions to DC, what we could use is a "Featured" category. They randomly select missions marked as "final" and if they liked it, it goes to featured for a month. If they really, really like it, then it goes to Devs Choice and stays there.
- If that happens, then there should be tabs created like "Devs Choice" and "Featured" and "Past Favorites" (where past featured arcs go).
Featured = non-crap, non-farm, worth playing
Past Featured = a ton of arcs for you to play that are decent and non-farms
Dev's Choice = great!
- The main list of arcs shouldn't be cluttered by the first few pages being all HoF and DC arcs like we have now. The code should track the average number of monthly (or weekly) plays. It might be a good way to do the default sort of the current list of arcs: Avg # of plays + "final" setting.
This way a more or less dynamic "hot list" is always on top when you log in. You made a new arc and a bunch of friends tried it out? Expect it to make the front page next month. You have an arc from a year ago with a ton of plays, it may be on the front page for quite a while. So while it may be easy to get on the front page for a month, it should also take considerable effort to keep it there, the good ones should end up with more plays. And this dynamic list should present you with different choices each time you visit.
- It would be nice if the first page could be dev monitored and if they aren't going to penalize an obvious farm mission that shows up on the list, then at least they should be flagged so they won't show up. Or better yet farmers themselves should just not flag their farms as "final".
Anyway, if the way arcs are presented is more dynamic, there might actually be a reason to frequent AE. In any case, I just thought I'd throw my idea out there for discussion.
I find your ideas intriguing and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
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Arcs on the "featured" list should be examined immediately if they're reported as farms. There wouldn't be as many, so they'd be much easier to monitor than the hundreds of thousands of arcs in the entire system. Smart farmers try to keep their farms off the radar anyway. The dumb ones can just lose arcs slots and come here and cry about it. To steal a line from the market forum, their tears will be delicious.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
Anyway, if the way arcs are presented is more dynamic, there might actually be a reason to frequent AE. In any case, I just thought I'd throw my idea out there for discussion.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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I think this is a fantastic idea. One thing that always bugs me about AE is that the same arcs that were on the first page on day one are still there. Nothing against them, but there are many other arcs that are just as good if not better and deserve to have some time in the spotlight.
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Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
This way a more or less dynamic "hot list" is always on top when you log in. You made a new arc and a bunch of friends tried it out? Expect it to make the front page next month. You have an arc from a year ago with a ton of plays, it may be on the front page for quite a while. So while it may be easy to get on the front page for a month, it should also take considerable effort to keep it there, the good ones should end up with more plays. And this dynamic list should present you with different choices each time you visit.
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50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
On a not entirely related note, can we do something about getting the obvious farms cleaned out? Hit a normal 4-star search some time. The first page or two is almost exclusively farms. I'm not trying to say this just to get one of my arcs onto page 1 of the 4-star list. . . but sheesh.
And, yes, revisiting Hall of Fame would be nice. I had a tough time keeping "Hammer and Sickle of Paragon City" at 5 stars for about 110 ratings. After that, it fluctuated up and down until it hit around 135-140. Now that it's dipped to 4 stars and is sitting around 140 ratings, it's not gotten a single new play outside SG members in MONTHS. How do they expect arcs to stay at a 5-star average for, what, 1000 plays to get Hall of Fame status? 
I'm out of signature space! Arcs by Tubbius of Justice are HERE: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=218177
Since my second arc, Casualties of War, just got griefed, you're down to one less five star with over 100 plays.
HoF needs revisiting, rating system needs to be revised, farms and dead wood need to be cleared out, DCs need to be more active, content choices that the devs can use need to be made available... Sometimes I'm not sure why they even bother with the MA.
Don't mind me, just ticked off and ranting.
The SOLUS Foundation - a Liberty and Pinnacle SG
"The Consequences of War" - Arcs # 227331 and 241496
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Originally Posted by Dalghryn
Since my second arc, Casualties of War, just got griefed, your down to one less five star with over 100 plays.
HoF needs revisiting, rating system needs to be revised, farms and dead wood need to be cleared out, DCs need to be more active, content choices that the devs can use need to be made available... Sometimes I'm not sure why they even bother with the MA. Don't mind me, just ticked off and ranting. |
It's perfectly OK to be ticked off and I totally sympathize. I also agree, as I have said time and time again with all of those suggested changes.
WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
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Why is it griefing if someone doesn't like your arc? Do you know that someone intentionally gave it a low score for the purpose of knocking it down or are you assuming that?|
Originally Posted by Dalghryn
Since my second arc, Casualties of War, just got griefed, you're down to one less five star with over 100 plays.
Don't mind me, just ticked off and ranting. |
I can sympathize with your frustration. But I have read others also say that they were "griefed" when they did not get a perfect score of 5 stars and I am wondering if I am missing info.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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When people get a bunch of four- and five-star ratings with positive comments on their four-star arcs, then one of those five-star ratings puts it at five stars and on the first few pages, and within hours of being at five stars it's gotten another vote with no tickets or comments that knocks it back down to four stars, and this happens EVERY TIME the arc gets to five stars, it's hard not to assume that people are being jerkwads. Note that my arc that has had this happen at least three times has not received a single no-ticket rating when it's been at four stars. And it has Malta ambushes in it.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Why is it griefing if someone doesn't like your arc? Do you know that someone intentionally gave it a low score for the purpose of knocking it down or are you assuming that?
I can sympathize with your frustration. But I have read others also say that they were "griefed" when they did not get a perfect score of 5 stars and I am wondering if I am missing info. |
Also adding to the evidence is that when 0-star ratings were removed, a whole lot of four-star arcs lost a few "plays" and went up to five stars.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
"When 0-star ratings were removed?" Come again? 
I'm out of signature space! Arcs by Tubbius of Justice are HERE: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=218177
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Could it be that getting to the first few pages gets you more plays? I assume that to be true, although I don't know for a fact. I know that most authors covet being as close to the top as possible. And by getting more plays, you are bound to run into someone who has different tastes than the author.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
When people get a bunch of four- and five-star ratings with positive comments on their four-star arcs, then one of those five-star ratings puts it at five stars and on the first few pages, and within hours of being at five stars it's gotten another vote with no tickets or comments that knocks it back down to four stars, and this happens EVERY TIME the arc gets to five stars, it's hard not to assume that people are being jerkwads. Note that my arc that has had this happen at least three times has not received a single no-ticket rating when it's been at four stars. And it has Malta ambushes in it.
Also adding to the evidence is that when 0-star ratings were removed, a whole lot of four-star arcs lost a few "plays" and went up to five stars. |
I do not doubt that there may be "One Star Bandits" that have a beef with one author or another, or perhaps that just enjoy being jerks. But I highly doubt that every, single vote of a generally well received arc that is not a 4 or 5 is due to said bandits.
Frankly, thinking that the only reason an arc would get three or less stars is "griefing" is the height of arrogance.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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I am lucky enough to have a Dev Choice arc, and for some reason it switches between the first and second page every so often. I can tell a big difference in tickets aka plays when it's on the first page versus being on the second page. The front page is a very powerful tool for getting plays, and I really wish it was utilized better.
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Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Could it be that getting to the first few pages gets you more plays? I assume that to be true, although I don't know for a fact. I know that most authors covet being as close to the top as possible. And by getting more plays, you are bound to run into someone who has different tastes than the author.
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It's always suspicious when your arc get bumped up from page 400-something to page 3, only for the very next rating to give no tickets, no comment, and send you all the way back down to the where you were before, if not even lower.
Um, I think you're viewing viewing the situation with the wrong lens. While some users may benefit faster than others, a more achievable goal helps the MA in the long run. While I still feel that more needs to be done to improve AE's standing within the game, it's simply not realistic at this stage of things to think that HoF's current format works. Sadly, while people may play good arcs, they won't seek them out. Part of that is the subpar search engine but we've had a sizable drought of dev promotion. If DCs aren't being handed out then the only option is the players promoting things. What better way than improving MA?
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