Hall of Fame requirements need revisiting
By
airhead,
Posted on: 2010-05-13 08:24 in Mission Architect
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I agree that both DC and HoF have become pretty meaningless in some ways, but in one critical way they are a key to many of our continuing participation in MA. They are currently the only way to get an additional arc slot. For me this is a deal breaker and I know I'm not alone. |
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
It's not like DC or HOF even mean anything any more. |
Speaking strictly from my personal experience, I have been out arc slots for over five months now. This is despite having an arc with about a dozen recommendations for DC, that has been at 5 stars and stayed there since it's publish day making it the highest rated/most played arc in that time (of course excluding DCs).
It's been a year now since that arc was published, so we can clearly see the maximum number of plays an arc could expect in that time which was 257. In my mind this far exceeds what any existing HoF arc did. All arcs published pre-15 had a giant leg up. To put in perspective what a great advantage this is, there is an arc published during that time pre-15 time that is currently rated 2 STARS and has 199 plays. That's more plays than 99.9% of the arcs published in the last year on an arc rated only 2 stars.
DC has it's own issue which really boils down to the fact that it has been stuck on one person alone to select them. It's not fair to that person, it's not fair to the MA community and it's not how DC was advertised as working.
The lack of arc slots should be addressed. Setting the HoF to a more reasonable number would be easy to do and, at least in my opinion, writing arcs enjoyed by a large portion of the MA player base should be rewarded with more slots. At least it seems to makes sense to me allow people who write arcs players enjoy to write more.
WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
I am aware, first hand knowledge, that there is at least one group that is manipulating the votes in AE. I was asked to join an AE group and the basic purpose was for members of this group to play 5 star arcs and rate them 1 stars, and the flip side was for members to play members arcs and rate them 5 stars. I declined participation, as my arcs would reflect, I have 5 decent arcs with a grand total of about 30 votes or so combined since AE's launch. :P
The problem is the whole ratings system is a joke. People know the ratings don't really mean anything. Number of plays and quality of votings is relational to what you do outside AE and what ratings snipers do to your rating. No offense to you Wrong_Number, your arc may indeed be awesome, but the number of plays and number of 5-star ratings do not equal quality.
If you have alot of friends, sg members, you'll have a lot of 5-star votesI don't want them to add anything else to Hall of Fame, Dev's Choice or Guest Authors, they are taking up way too many pages as it is when you launch the interface. Those three need to be deleted or moved from the main page. It would be far more beneficial to get a new system implemented in hopes we might see people interested in creating arcs again. We certainly don't need potentially dozens more HoF pages because the bar got lowered.
If you are good at persuading non-friends to play your arc or use the forums to advertise, you'll have a lot of plays
If you aren't worried about any of that but concentrating on writing a masterpiece and then post it, it won't get plays or votes, period.
If you want to improve AE like many of us do, give them a reason to "fix" AE, not to give you a pass into the HoF because you'll never make the criteria as it stands now. Give them something that brings something to all of us. The more impacted the better. And If you want to know the quickest way to get a change, it's to have us arc builders show them an easy way to generate interest in players who gave up on AE. That can be easy as asking for them to remove all HoF, DC, and Guest Authors and have the entire list randomized when you launch the interface and remove the ratings. It gives everyone a few minutes in the spotlight randomly and provides no one with a reason to give you anything but an honest vote.
Exposure will get plays. Plays gets you blind votes. Votes equals tickets. Tickets and feedback comments are rewards and this goes a long way to giving you reasons to create in AE.
Granted, this doesn't address this:
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I would think a better system would be to unlock slots by number of arcs published. when you have 3 published arcs a 4th slot is automatically available, then a 5th with 4, etc, up to 10. At any time one becomes unpublished, you lose a slot. All this would work provided you were good standing, like never sanctioned for creating farming exploits or whatever.
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Originally Posted by Wrong_Number
The lack of arc slots should be addressed. Setting the HoF to a more reasonable number would be easy to do and, at least in my opinion, writing arcs enjoyed by a large portion of the MA player base should be rewarded with more slots. At least it seems to makes sense to me allow people who write arcs players enjoy to write more.
WN |
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No they're not.
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Originally Posted by Wrong_Number
They are currently the only way to get an additional arc slot.
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I disagree. Less than a dozen arcs have over 100 plays and are still at 5 stars. Having played all of them personally, several more than once, I can say that they all are very good to excellent arcs that are better than a great many of the earlier DC's and HoF arcs. I do agree though that 5 star rating and many plays is not the sole indicator of a quality arc. |
Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
....No offense to you Wrong_Number, your arc may indeed be awesome, but the number of plays and number of 5-star ratings do not equal quality.
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| If you have alot of friends, sg members, you'll have a lot of 5-star votes |
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| If you are good at persuading non-friends to play your arc or use the forums to advertise, you'll have a lot of plays |
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| If you aren't worried about any of that but concentrating on writing a masterpiece and then post it, it won't get plays or votes, period. |
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| I don't want them to add anything else to Hall of Fame, Dev's Choice or Guest Authors, they are taking up way too many pages as it is when you launch the interface. Those three need to be deleted or moved from the main page. |
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| It would be far more beneficial to get a new system implemented in hopes we might see people interested in creating arcs again. We certainly don't need potentially dozens more HoF pages because the bar got lowered. |
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| If you want to improve AE like many of us do, give them a reason to "fix" AE, not to give you a pass into the HoF because you'll never make the criteria as it stands now. Give them something that brings something to all of us. The more impacted the better. And If you want to know the quickest way to get a change, it's to have us arc builders show them an easy way to generate interest in players who gave up on AE. That can be easy as asking for them to remove all HoF, DC, and Guest Authors and have the entire list randomized when you launch the interface and remove the ratings. It gives everyone a few minutes in the spotlight randomly and provides no one with a reason to give you anything but an honest vote. |
WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
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I already have eight full slots. Please enlighten me as to other ways to get addtional arc slots other than DC or HoF.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
No they're not.
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WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
Maybe my arc wasn't griefed. Maybe the two people that rated me a one and sent my arc into four star oblivion actually disliked the arc that bad.
What chaps me about the recent development, and what lends me to believe that my arc (and many others in the five star and four star limbo) is not deserving of such low ratings (below a three) is the fact that I and those others have spent a considerable amount of time getting feedback from authors and players that have all contributed to making the arc solid - both story-wise and technically.
Call me arrogant, but I have a really hard time believing that an arc that has been compared quite favorably to the best developer content by dozens of arguably qualified critics can recieve a one or two star rating with any intent but griefing. Maybe the game play was too difficult or too easy for your tastes. Maybe the story wasn't one you prefer. Solid arcs that have been well-written, repeatedly critiqued and improved, and have been recommended for DCs several times over are not the SG run-up arcs some of the commenters are using as arguments to suggest they weren't griefed.
A solid arc is a solid arc, and shouldn't be subject to a precipitous fall based on the ill-will of a couple of players, regardless of their intention.
At least we can agree that the systems simply flawed. We'll have to agree to disagree about the rest.
The SOLUS Foundation - a Liberty and Pinnacle SG
"The Consequences of War" - Arcs # 227331 and 241496
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Although you disagree, you are making my point. You state there are less than a dozen arcs that are better than a great deal HoF arcs. I can agree with that and it shows that just because someone has the plays and the rating doesn't mean the arc is any good. Unless the ratings are based off the devs opinions and no longer in players hands, it can be manipulated. It has and will be, both for and against players. Therefor the rating system is useless for anything other than just dropping a player tickets. And so is the Hall of Fame.|
Originally Posted by Wrong_Number
I disagree. Less than a dozen arcs have over 100 plays and are still at 5 stars. Having played all of them personally, several more than once, I can say that they all are very good to excellent arcs that are better than a great many of the earlier DC's and HoF arcs. I do agree though that 5 star rating and many plays is not the sole indicator of a quality arc.
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Originally Posted by Wrong_Number
My husband and I plus one long time in game friend are the only people even remotely active in any of my SG/VGs. What does help is being active in the MA community, though that certainly does not guarantee you a good rating from anyone.
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Originally Posted by Wrong_Number
I've never advertised either of my two highest rated arcs or even asked for reviews of them. I would not know how you would even try to "persuading non-friends to play your arc" nor would I care too, I don't even advertise them. I'm pretty certain that getting random unknown people to play your arc will not ensure a good rating from them and in fact I'd think was awful risky.
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I have seen people broadcast for people to try out his arc. In your channel MA Arc Finder, people are announcing arcs. I have had a player post feedback on one of my arcs and giving me the number of one of his to rate. All of them are advertising their arcs attempting to get non-friends to play their arcs.
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Originally Posted by Wrong_Number
You will if you are active in the MA community and/or they are on the first few pages or get good word of mouth.
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Originally Posted by Wrong_Number
I can see you did not read the math I have shown over the last six plus months here or you would know that is an unfounded concern.
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Originally Posted by Wrong_Number
I have spent more hours than I can guess promoting MA as have others. The devs need to get more involved to generate player interest.
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I don't have time to respond to all your comments, but want to point out a misunderstanding you have. I'm not saying that "there are less than a dozen arcs that are better than a great deal HoF arcs." just that there are less than a dozen arcs with over 100 plays while still maintaining a 5 star rating. That's a fact, not an opinion.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
Although you disagree, you are making my point. You state there are less than a dozen arcs that are better than a great deal HoF arcs. I can agree with that and it shows that just because someone has the plays and the rating doesn't mean the arc is any good. Unless the ratings are based off the devs opinions and no longer in players hands, it can be manipulated. It has and will be, both for and against players. Therefor the rating system is useless for anything other than just dropping a player tickets. And so is the Hall of Fame.
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WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
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Not entirely off, but my apologies if it changed the context of what you said. |
Originally Posted by Wrong_Number
I don't have time to respond to all your comments, but want to point out a misunderstanding you have. I'm not saying that "there are less than a dozen arcs that are better than a great deal HoF arcs." just that there are less than a dozen arcs with over 100 plays while still maintaining a 5 star rating. That's a fact, not an opinion.
WN |
But you did say that these arcs: "are better than a great many of the earlier DC's and HoF arcs," which does not change the point of my post.
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Many of them are. The early DCs are, quite frankly, nothing special in most cases. From the sounds of it, anyone in closed beta who had written a coherent arc could have gotten one. A bunch of them were carried over to live just so there would be some DC arcs up.|
Originally Posted by Bad_Dog
Not entirely off, but my apologies if it changed the context of what you said.
But you did say that these arcs: "are better than a great many of the earlier DC's and HoF arcs," which does not change the point of my post. |
As for the "maybe your arc isn't as good as you think it is" argument....many of these authors who have reported one-star griefing have had their arcs reviewed by people whose opinions I respect a heck of a lot more than those of "random player who threw you a 1-star and didn't have the guts to say what he didn't like about it." Many of these arcs have been recommended by these same people. So either people are jerks, or they're the same broadcast-spamming perma-n00bs who send tells to random people asking to join a team twenty levels higher and are ticked off that they wasted time loading something other than a Steel Canyon map exploit farm. Either way, their opinion should count for squat...and it would, if they had to actually spell it out and couldn't express it with a simple click of a button.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Get another account. Pay a friend some inf to host your stories. Can trial accounts make AE arcs? There's another option. None of which sound great to me, but then, what I like to imagine the intended goal* of AE's small arc maximum is clearly not being adequately met.|
Originally Posted by Wrong_Number
I already have eight full slots. Please enlighten me as to other ways to get addtional arc slots other than DC or HoF.
WN |
They are not the only way to get more slots. They are the only way for someone who has already bought up to the cap and who doesn't want to spend more money for more slots. But your original sentiment was not 'for me, and people like me, this is the only way to get more slots.' It was 'this is the only way to get more slots.'
It would not be, in my opinion, unreasonable to increase the slot cap for people who have multiple arcs that have been heavily played. But file that under 'more attention.'
* That due to a smaller number of arc slots being available, the arcs that are up will be highly polished, very refined, and very good. This is the same idea behind the shortness of arcs - that you should be able to tell a good story in 5 missions. To say this view of discipline and focus are optimistic is understating things - it's downright naive, and I think the current standards of the game demonstrate this.
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I did. You ignored it. Forgive me if I don't think your opinion on how your having solicited feedback has made a better arc. |
Originally Posted by Dalghryn
Call me arrogant,
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| At least we can agree that the systems simply flawed. We'll have to agree to disagree about the rest. |
That said, yeah, the system's ******. I'd rather an up-and-down thumbs-up, thumbs-down system, maybe something connective and clouded (where an author can attach linked recommendations to arcs by other players, etc.), than the 5 star system we have. I mean, I feel stingy with 5-star ratings, and I can think of several 5 star arcs which I wouldn't even give a 3. Then again, there are some people who think avoiding obvious spelling errors is the basic threshold for hitting a 4.
As it stands, AE is a world with not one, but two social zeitgeists, with one of these spirits being defined by publicity, an attempt to pimp your work, a desire to be seen positively and a desire to achieve DC and HOF. The other is defined by anonymity and complete unaccountability, and the things you do to excel in one social situation can have a negative impact on the other. Very simply, the system is fundamentally screwed. I feel my concerns about player-generated, player-rated content completely justified, many issues on.
Fact is, some players may rate you low not as 'griefing,' but your high rating might make them more inclined to be harsh. I fully expect there are people who have bounced Hopeless because they heard it being praised. There's a reason people capable of reasonable, objective criticism tend to get employed doing it.
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This is just as shortsighted as allowing people to rate arcs they haven't finished, or indeed even really started.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
* That due to a smaller number of arc slots being available, the arcs that are up will be highly polished, very refined, and very good. This is the same idea behind the shortness of arcs - that you should be able to tell a good story in 5 missions. To say this view of discipline and focus are optimistic is understating things - it's downright naive, and I think the current standards of the game demonstrate this.
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The entire history of AE is really just a demonstration of the failure of optimism.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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This seems like spitting hairs. They are the only ways intended to grant you more arc slots. I don't feel that buying a second account and paying a monthly fee just to publish three more arcs is reasonable nor is paying people to host my arcs imo. |
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Get another account. Pay a friend some inf to host your stories. Can trial accounts make AE arcs? There's another option. None of which sound great to me, but then, what I like to imagine the intended goal* of AE's small arc maximum is clearly not being adequately met.
They are not the only way to get more slots. They are the only way for someone who has already bought up to the cap and who doesn't want to spend more money for more slots. But your original sentiment was not 'for me, and people like me, this is the only way to get more slots.' It was 'this is the only way to get more slots.' |
WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
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So it's the only way, if you choose to eschew the other ways available. Buying more slots is also clearly not intended to grant you more slots.|
Originally Posted by Wrong_Number
This seems like spitting hairs. They are the only ways intended to grant you more arc slots. I don't feel that buying a second account and paying a monthly fee just to publish three more arcs is reasonable nor is paying people to host my arcs imo.
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I know you are at the cap, but you keep speaking as though you are speaking for all the people that there are.
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That's you reading more into it then what's there. I never claimed to be speaking for anyone but myself. |
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
So it's the only way, if you choose to eschew the other ways available. Buying more slots is also clearly not intended to grant you more slots.
I know you are at the cap, but you keep speaking as though you are speaking for all the people that there are. |
If you think paying $15 a month for three more slots is reasonable go for it. I think it would be a foolish waste of money and not reasonable to the vast majority of players. I can come up with all sorts of unreasonable ways of getting more arc slots, but that was not what I was talking about and I feel you are just trying to be contrary for argument's sake.
WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
Getting someone else to host your arcs is also unfeasible unless the person trusts you enough to let you use their account every time you want to update. Which is technically against the EULA anyway. So you can either not update your arc, ever, get your friend to update it for you, or violate the EULA.
Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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They don't, but again, only speaking for myself, I like to constantly improve my arcs as I get feedback and to keep them up to date as patchs/updates occur.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I wasn't aware that arcs of inactive accounts disappeared.
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WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
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They don't disappear, but it's not a very good system. You pay $15 for 3 slots, and one month to use them. If you need to edit any of those arcs after publishing them, you would need to spend another $15 for every month you needed to update them. That is not very cost effective at all. And patches break arcs very often.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I wasn't aware that arcs of inactive accounts disappeared.
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Funny, my first negative critique... a two star if I recall correctly... came from your keyboard. It was one of the feedbacks I was referring to. You, Lazarus, Police Woman, and several others all provided insight that made the arc in question much better. I know it was the intent of the others to help me improve my arc. Despite the delivery, I assumed your intent was the same. If so, and if I did indeed make changes to my arc based on your comments, then it stands to reason my arc improved, putting a clean hole in your argument.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
I did. You ignored it. Forgive me if I don't think your opinion on how your having solicited feedback has made a better arc.
Eh, 'Agree to disagree' is a pretty pretentious phrase in my experience. It's like a reverse godwin - the first person to say it gets to act as if they're the only reasonable person in the room if others don't concur. |
While your calling *me* arrogant is the height of the pot calling the kettle black, at least you took the time to explain the reasons for bad reviews and made suggestions for improvement, unlike the majority of people that one or two star arcs for no real reason other than sabotage.
Feel free NOT to agree to disagree if you choose. I was just trying to be somewhat civil. You'd think I would have learned from past experience.
The SOLUS Foundation - a Liberty and Pinnacle SG
"The Consequences of War" - Arcs # 227331 and 241496
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This doesn't strike you as the weensiest bit self-important?|
Originally Posted by Dalghryn
While your calling *me* arrogant is the height of the pot calling the kettle black,
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| at least you took the time to explain the reasons for bad reviews and made suggestions for improvement, unlike the majority of people that one or two star arcs for no real reason other than sabotage. |
An honest assessment of someone's arc is a matter of taste, which is subjective. The same arc can be critiqued as too hard by some and too easy by others. The mere fact that someone gives an arc 3 stars or less without leaving any comments does not equate to griefing.
It might be griefing, but it does not HAVE to be.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
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This is very true. Many people ignore math and go with all sorts of criteria for giving ratings. Simply put:|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
An honest assessment of someone's arc is a matter of taste, which is subjective. The same arc can be critiqued as too hard by some and too easy by others. The mere fact that someone gives an arc 3 stars or less without leaving any comments does not equate to griefing.
It might be griefing, but it does not HAVE to be. |
1 Star = At least 80% of the arcs in the system are better than this arc
2 Stars = At least 60% of the arcs in the system are better than this arc
3 Stars = At least 40% of the arcs in the system are better than this arc
4 Stars = At least 20% of the arcs in the system are better than this arc
5 Stars = This arc is in the top 20% of arcs in the system
WN
Check out one of my most recent arcs:
457506 - A Very Special Episode - An abandoned TV, a missing kid's TV show host and more
416951 - The Ms. Manners Task Force - More wacky villains, Wannabes. things in poor taste
or one of my other arcs including two 2010 Player's Choice Winners and an2009 Official AE Awards Nominee for Best Original Story
On the other hand, it's entirely possible that someone has a negative opinion of the arc and doesn't want to deal with an arc author throwing a tantrum about it. Lords knows that there are arc authors who do that. There are arc authors who think anything short of a 5-star is somehow harsh criticism.
Being bounced up and down is more a function of how badly the system works. You're trying to hit a moving target - your movements do not happen in a vacuum. You get bumped up to page 3? Suddenly, more people can see. They don't like it so much, so you lose that spike that pushed you up there. Meanwhile, other stuff that was once behind you has gotten attention and gotten moved forwards.
Basically, I am disinclined to imagine conspiracy and griefing. It's much, much easier, in my opinion, to presume that between the flawed star system and the nature of the writing in the AE, that there are simply people who have now seen your arc and didn't like it.
It's not like DC or HOF even mean anything any more.
I concur with the heading idea? But really, it could all be folded under my opinion that AE needs attention, and well, yeah. We're the ******* cousin of base editing at this point.