VEATs and HEATs
By
Ad Astra,
Posted on: 2010-04-29 08:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
At first the changed angered me...but then I had to come to my senses. Also it's good for me since I main Red Side. It will bring more Red Side players to our low numbers. I still don't understand why people don't like COV...is i the gray sky issue? If so the devs need to throw in a "tropical" zone lol.
Negate,
A lot of people do hate it because it's so dreary. Some can't get past their own morality enough to play a villain. Some can't stand the reduced zone performance.
I honestly believe that the almost constant 2 to 1 ratio I've always seen between Blue and Redside will remain true until we can level 1 to 50 in Praetoria.
Me? I like redside because I hate blueside contacts and their constant abuse of the old "travel back and forth between zones every mission" time sink.
Be well, people of CoH.
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And PsiCops.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Ironically, villains get significantly more exposure to Khelds than heroes do. The PPD at top tier is nothing but Khelds and robots.
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It's got "mismatched buddy cop movie" written all over it.
He's an aging, grumpy cop with psychic abilities
She's a feisty, rookie space-squid on her first day in the force
It's a floating robotic drone with a bad attitude which plays by its own rules
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They fight crime!
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Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
It's got "mismatched buddy cop movie" written all over it.
He's an aging, grumpy cop with psychic abilities She's a feisty, rookie space-squid on her first day in the force It's a floating robotic drone with a bad attitude which plays by its own rules |
@SPTrashcan
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I can only speak for myself, but grouping in CoV is usually less fun for me than grouping in CoH. I'm sure there are three things going on:|
Originally Posted by Negate
I still don't understand why people don't like COV...is i the gray sky issue?
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1) Weaker overall defenses - Villain ATs have characters with weaker defenses and weaker support than hero side ATs. Compare a Brute with a Tanker or Corruptor to a Defender. Heroes also have access to their best buffs/debuffs earlier. (Speed boost at lvl12? Yes, please!) As many are aware, since mitigation strength is non-linear, the combination of these two are huge.
2) Enemy difficulty - In addition to the above, villains have to deal with much nastier enemies than Heroes. Succubi, anyone?
The two of these make villain groups more brittle, and more likely to fail when 'things' hit the fan. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against there being challenges in the game, or anything like that; I've just had far more bad experiences where teams bang their head against a wall villain side than hero.
3) Conflicting roles - Sometimes Villain ATs step on each other's toes more than hero teams do. As a simple example, a Brute can be hindered by multiple Brutes or Dominators controlling well. That sort of thing bugs me. I know, this doesn't always happen, but this doesn't happen hero side at all.
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There are other reasons, as well. Hero side is much more open for story interpretation than villains - where you're frequenly either an arachnos pawn or a mercenary. Heroes have other perks, too: more content (zones, TFs, etc), a higher population, a more filled market, etc.
It's funny, too, because by all rights I should like villains more. See, I love hybrids. I played a Friar/Paladin in DAoC, a Paladin in WoW, Bear Shaman in AoC, Warrior Priest in Warhammer, etc. Villain ATs just haven't grabbed me. (I need to try playing my VEAT again.)
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But consider VEATs which add defenses to the entire team.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
I can only speak for myself, but grouping in CoV is usually less fun for me than grouping in CoH. I'm sure there are three things going on:
1) Weaker overall defenses - Villain ATs have characters with weaker defenses and weaker support than hero side ATs. Compare a Brute with a Tanker or Corruptor to a Defender. Heroes also have access to their best buffs/debuffs earlier. (Speed boost at lvl12? Yes, please!) As many are aware, since mitigation strength is non-linear, the combination of these two are huge. |
Also Villain ATs are more rounded in terms of damage capabilities, there's no low damage ATs villain-side really.
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In my opinion, villain ATs were geared towards self reliance, whereas hero ATs are geared towards good teamwork.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
But consider VEATs which add defenses to the entire team.
Also Villain ATs are more rounded in terms of damage capabilities, there's no low damage ATs villain-side really. |
A good hero team is eight people steamrolling together.
A good villain team is eight people soloing on the same map.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Not to discount what Sarrate just posted, the flip side to those points is that ALL redside ATs are damage dealers.
The brute will dish out Vastly higher damage than the tank. The corruptor will make a mockery of the damage a defender can push out.
The buffs may not be as grand, but if a redside team stops thinking about tackling a spawn like a blueside team would and instead attacks said spawn as the damage dealers that they are, the problems go away and the spawns melt.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Agreed. Ironically Villains is the side you're more likely to come across a team all suffering from a form of Scrapperlock.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
In my opinion, villain ATs were geared towards self reliance, whereas hero ATs are geared towards good teamwork.
A good hero team is eight people steamrolling together. A good villain team is eight people soloing on the same map. |
Suffering may be the wrong word there.
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I refer you to my scrapperlock thread, started by tales of my mastermind.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
Agreed. Ironically Villains is the side you're more likely to come across a team all suffering from a form of Scrapperlock.
Suffering may be the wrong word there. |
Edit: I realize you have posted in that thread. Thank you for your contribution of pure awesome.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
My three rules of villainy:
1. Everyone in - no pulling, no herding, take that alpha and like it.
2. Everyone kills - no buff bots, no taunt bots, apply your attacks early and often.
3. Save yourself - don't blame other people for not taking time specifically to save you.
(These are also my 3 rules of heroics. :P)
@SPTrashcan
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Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Quote:
I approve!|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
My three rules of villainy:
1. Everyone in - no pulling, no herding, take that alpha and like it. 2. Everyone kills - no buff bots, no taunt bots, apply your attacks early and often. 3. Save yourself - don't blame other people for not taking time specifically to save you. (These are also my 3 rules of heroics. :P) |
I have rules for my task/strike forces as well, but the first rule is I'm not allowed to talk about them.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Quote:
I've just added another based on yesterdays SoA team, which is basically the evolution of Scrapperlock on a fledgling team.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I refer you to my scrapperlock thread, started by tales of my mastermind.
Edit: I realize you have posted in that thread. Thank you for your contribution of pure awesome. |
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VEATs are definitely a shining jewel for villain teams, no doubt. Many (all?) VEATs have res debuffs for extra offensive firepower, too. Unfortunately, not all villain teams will have them.|
Originally Posted by Carnifax_NA
But consider VEATs which add defenses to the entire team.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Not to discount what Sarrate just posted, the flip side to those points is that ALL redside ATs are damage dealers.
The brute will dish out Vastly higher damage than the tank. The corruptor will make a mockery of the damage a defender can push out. The buffs may not be as grand, but if a redside team stops thinking about tackling a spawn like a blueside team would and instead attacks said spawn as the damage dealers that they are, the problems go away and the spawns melt. |
Consider this hyperbole, for a moment. If you have 8 Blasters, spawns will melt really fast. If something unexpected happens (such as an ambush, aggroing extra spawns, etc) it breaks really fast. My experience, which is much different than yours, is exactly that. Villains will cruise through mobs, but curve balls are far more likely to break the group.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
In my opinion, villain ATs were geared towards self reliance, whereas hero ATs are geared towards good teamwork.
A good hero team is eight people steamrolling together. A good villain team is eight people soloing on the same map. |
(Btw, while villains have a bit less cohesion than heroes, I wouldn't quite go so far as saying 8 people soloing the same map... That's what CO teaming is like. Yuck!)
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Or if they are majorly DS MMs. And then whatever you throw at them, they will laugh and zerg your backside off in a wall of fire and claws |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Not to discount what Sarrate just posted, the flip side to those points is that ALL redside ATs are damage dealers.
The brute will dish out Vastly higher damage than the tank. The corruptor will make a mockery of the damage a defender can push out. The buffs may not be as grand, but if a redside team stops thinking about tackling a spawn like a blueside team would and instead attacks said spawn as the damage dealers that they are, the problems go away and the spawns melt. |
Oh, and my 'Rule' of being a Warshade; "Bring me corpses, I bring you massive damage."
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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As someone who's barely touched blue side (highest is 32 tanker) I did plan to experiment with a warshade when 17 went live. Then I saw demonic summoning was unlocked (I don't know if it's cause I pre-ordered GR or if it came standard, I don't care right now 
)...
My WS plan was quickly foiled in favor of the "normal, non-epic, joe schmoe the plumber, plebian demonic summoner of pew pew" character I created last night. So don't worry about the new guys getting a discount on the price of unlocking epic ATs at 20. I saw Mercy Isle last night overrun with demonlings.
For myself at least, I won't spoil your Atlas Park with my ordinary citizen warshade toon. You guys can rest easy now! In fact, I'll delete him tonight to prevent myself from driving to the gated/guarded country club of "zomg ELITE!" archtypes with my bottom of the barrel self.
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Speaking for myself, it's very much a feeling of "one small, narrow path from 1-50 that I've walked before," as well as, yes, the grey, dingy, trash-heap-deco look. There's no variety in either mission path or decor, which leads to it being rather boring. Plus I think they lost something in their effort to "streamline" arcs and such. |
Originally Posted by Negate
. I still don't understand why people don't like COV...is i the gray sky issue? If so the devs need to throw in a "tropical" zone lol.
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Heroside, by comparison, I can get extremely varied "storylines" from 1-50, and go from nice, shiny zones (Steel, Atlas) to dingy (Kings Row, Crey's) to "mystic" (Croatoa, DA sort of.) There's enough variety that I can STILL go by and say "Hey, there's a contact I haven't run in a while!" and it's like seeing an friend you haven't talked to in a year.
Even knowing it'd be work, I'd still like to see, say, a hero hazard/regular zone contact revamp one issue, then perhaps a new villain zone two issues later, hero zone revamp two issues after, new villain zone, co-op, etc. Especially early on when we're dealing with the *same* stuff in Mercy, Oakes, etc. (Yeah, I know, obviously Praetoria is there, but what if I want to *start* side-specific?)
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That's true to a point, at the same time as Bill Z said, all villains come packing damage.|
Originally Posted by Sarrate
1) Weaker overall defenses - Villain ATs have characters with weaker defenses and weaker support than hero side ATs. Compare a Brute with a Tanker or Corruptor to a Defender. Heroes also have access to their best buffs/debuffs earlier. (Speed boost at lvl12? Yes, please!) As many are aware, since mitigation strength is non-linear, the combination of these two are huge.
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
2) Enemy difficulty - In addition to the above, villains have to deal with much nastier enemies than Heroes. Succubi, anyone?
The two of these make villain groups more brittle, and more likely to fail when 'things' hit the fan. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against there being challenges in the game, or anything like that; I've just had far more bad experiences where teams bang their head against a wall villain side than hero. |
It's actually why I play Redside, I found blueside incredibly boring.
I've never really hit my head against a wall on any redside team, in general they either thrive and steamroll or quickly fold up and die due to some AT mismatch or unworkable playstyle dynamic.
It's generally all decided within the first 2 paper mishes.
Charles Darwin would be proud.
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
It's funny, too, because by all rights I should like villains more. See, I love hybrids. I played a Friar/Paladin in DAoC, a Paladin in WoW, Bear Shaman in AoC, Warrior Priest in Warhammer, etc. Villain ATs just haven't grabbed me. (I need to try playing my VEAT again.)
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Where in CoV, wearing blue-lenses, you're playing a Hybrid amongst other Hybrids.
So trying to define your role on a team can be a bit more nebulous when you approach it from a traditional MMO grouping mentality.
It's actually quite clear what the role is for Villain Side ATs - Kill them, before they kill you.
If you approach a Villain team as an all out assault unit, with some adjustments for the types of powersets you have available, you might find it works a bit better.
(I played a Conqueror in AoC from launch myself. I only played for the first 3 months though.)
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Not to discount what Sarrate just posted, the flip side to those points is that ALL redside ATs are damage dealers.
The brute will dish out Vastly higher damage than the tank. The corruptor will make a mockery of the damage a defender can push out. The buffs may not be as grand, but if a redside team stops thinking about tackling a spawn like a blueside team would and instead attacks said spawn as the damage dealers that they are, the problems go away and the spawns melt. |
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You're a cool guy. I like the cut of your jib.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I'm not a fan of the elitism that tends to surround these sorts of unlockables, and would rather they had just been available to everyone the moment they were put in the game. I feel the same way about unlockable weapons, costume pieces, capes, and auras. No matter how many times I've had to unlock such things myself, if they made them all available from the beginning to everyone starting tomorrow I wouldn't be "pissed" because IMO that's how it should have been from the get-go.
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I am very supportive of this change, and anything that increases the population of the EAT's on both sides. I really dislike soloing HEAT's, but find them to be a boatload of fun on teams. The problem is, many players don't really understand HEAT's so they are often overlooked by teams who are looking for a straight-forward "buffer" or "healer" or "tank" or "damage-dealer".
I would also think that if people haven't reached the late-game and have played only lower level toons, HEAT's would feel pretty amazing in the first 20 levels (especially PB's). I remember the first time I took my PB on a Frostfire with a full team. The sound effects of the Nova blasts plus the sheer AoE potential at such an early level felt amazing. But I was hooked long before that. I remember childishly giggling the first time I flew through Outbreak. Granted, that was long before jet packs, and ninja run, and vet rewards. That was back in the day of sprinting through the hollows and taking the Debt Express back to Atlas if you accidentally fell in the Gulch.
I like soloing my VEAT's, but having a contingent of them on a team is a "crank the difficulty and steam-roll anything" experience. I expect that this change will have the most impact on CoV, and I expect a lot more VEAT's out there. CoV has one EAT selling point that CoH doesn't have, and that is, you actually encounter the VEAT's as foes in the regular archetypes. And for most Villain AT's, Arachnos hit HARD. So there is a built in incentive to want to play as them.
So if this begets more EAT's on either side, then that's awesome. I just wish the first contact in the HEAT arcs was Justaris, and the first mission was to read his guides. The only thing that frightens me is having a lot of people running around with EAT's that are poorly made and poorly played.
Some Established Villains:
Father McKenzie - Fire/Dark, Voltage Adapter - Elec/Nin
Some Established Heroes:
Sous Chef - DB/WP, Frost Advisory - Ice/Kin, Papa Xmas - Ice/FF, Bubbe - Sonic/Kin, Redeker Plan - Arch/Dev, Dr. Duplicitous - Ill/Kin
Wow...so many awesome posts...umm I agree with all of you LOL. I have seen a buttload of VEATS which really makes me happy. In fact last night I was on a team with 3 MM's, 1 Dom and 3 VEATS three of the VEATS had most of their leadership abilities already picked so the team just MELTED through spawns...it was actually beautifully disgusting to be honest.
I hope the same goes for HEATS. From What I've been told WS's are the least played Group...why is that? They are awesome on a bun...maybe it has something to do with them being SUCH a late bloomer.
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It's true.|
Originally Posted by Negate
Wow...so many awesome posts...umm I agree with all of you LOL. I have seen a buttload of VEATS which really makes me happy. In fact last night I was on a team with 3 MM's, 1 Dom and 3 VEATS three of the VEATS had most of their leadership abilities already picked so the team just MELTED through spawns...it was actually beautifully disgusting to be honest.
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VEATs who take even just a couple choice Tactical Training powers make their groups so much better.
Honestly, the game will only improve with more of them around, which is what I hope this change encourages.
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It's a bit of an evil circle in my case, I'd love to play villains but due to timezone issues there's just not enough people around there too team with when I play. So I don't play because it lacks people but at the same time I'm not helping the situation by playing there...
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Originally Posted by Negate
At first the changed angered me...but then I had to come to my senses. Also it's good for me since I main Red Side. It will bring more Red Side players to our low numbers. I still don't understand why people don't like COV...is i the gray sky issue? If so the devs need to throw in a "tropical" zone lol.
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Someone way, way, way up there said
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You know what I feel cheapens the acheivement? | I also feel it cheapens the achievment for those of us who got to 50 to unlock their EAT. |
Patrol XP.
Lowered XP 10-20 and 40-50.
Half debt in mission.
Half the debt cap, period.
No debt till level 10.
Huge team multipliers for XP.
XP in ouro, XP exemplared, XP redoing TF's for the tenth time with a 5-level-higher set of powers.
Jetpacks at 6, jump packs at 10, anyone can get a jetpack earlier if they really want it.
It took me 300 hours to get my second level 50 and I thought that was pretty fast. for someone who never got PL'd.
Now a fast 50 is ... what, 50 hours?
There. Is. No. Acheivement. There.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
@SPTrashcan
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Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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