Transpotation Power/s for Natural Heroes?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-04-27 11:09 in Suggestions and Ideas
My natural is using teleport that's essentially piggybacking on a hijacked Medicom carrier signal - that thing is so full of security holes it's not even funny.
My main, AP, started off with Super Jump. She wore spring-loaded boots and used to ricochet off of tall buildings, until complaints by residents were made.
It helped a lot when the Piston Boots were made available.
If I was the sort of person who thought 'But she'd die on impact with the ground' then I possibly also wouldn't like comic books and comic book universes a great deal. But I do. 
Flight was then achieved using anti-grav technology (located in her belt, naturally) . I changed because Flight was easier and I was doing a lot of badge hunting. But conceptually, anti-grav technology 'worked' for RP purposes too (and travelling round the Shadow Shards...)
As has been stated before, Manticore uses a hack on the mediport system to TP around.
Super Speed is about the only power I cannot tally up with Natural Origin (under the assumption that Natural Origin, for the majority of my characters, is human).
But I've fudged other powerset choices before now. My Controller, Whirling Dervish, is an old lady who has Super Speed. She can't actually run faster than the average car on a motorway, but she's a /Stormie so the speed represents her moving swiftly through the air (also, it meant I didn't have to take Hasten, then Hover, then Fly! Practicality is a big part of it too).
NInja Run+Fitness, All there for your parkour needs.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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This is a fair statement. The only issue, IMO, is the animation and stance that comes with Ninja Run. Adding some customization that allowed you to change the stance and run animations would help in that respect. Random flip animations would be cool as well but probably a nightmare to code. Maybe alternate flip animations that played depending on a direction change while jumping? Of course this all might be a coding nightmare but I thought I would mention it anyway.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
NInja Run+Fitness, All there for your parkour needs.
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Dig in LightfootÂ…..
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"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
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Were we disagreeing about something? I have found your position in this thread to be perfectly reasonable.|
Originally Posted by McBoo
Dig in LightfootÂ…..
> |
On that note:
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| This is a fair statement. The only issue, IMO, is the animation and stance that comes with Ninja Run. Adding some customization that allowed you to change the stance and run animations would help in that respect. Random flip animations would be cool as well but probably a nightmare to code. Maybe alternate flip animations that played depending on a direction change while jumping? Of course this all might be a coding nightmare but I thought I would mention it anyway. |
Most of the time, I take Ninja Run, and simply deal with the fact that I have to wonder why my Science Necro Mastermind homage to the Reanimator is running like a character in Ninja Scroll.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
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No disagreement I just threw that in to be cheeky. |
Originally Posted by Lightfoot
Were we disagreeing about something? I have found your position in this thread to be perfectly reasonable.
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"I am a Tank. I am your first choice, I am your last hope." -- Rune Bull
"Durability is the quintessential super-power. " -- Sailboat
It seems like a possibility would be to have alternate animation options for travel powers that emulate gear and vehicles. for instance...
superspeed could look like a motercyle. it's compact enough to work, I think, and could be functionally the same.
Flight could just use the same thing as jetpacks. it's a cool item, and one could see a hero making use of one full time. another option is having it look kind of glider-ish when you fly, a webbing between torso and arm that stretches out a bit beyond, batman beyond style
Super jump could be a sort of rapid-rappeler, shooting out a line and then pulling you after it. alternatively, use the zero-g pack
teleportation... glowing belt? sky raiders backpacks?
Being away due to school I thought I would address a host of question and posts I thought I would address most of them here at once. Sorry for not having time to address all of them individually as time is still an issue.
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This could clearly define the origin, which is a theme of play, I am trying to address. that the current transportation don't exactly address the theme of play this origin's description is invoking. It seems clear by description, the human naturals mentioned mostly in this origin's description are more akin to movies like Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, various Jacky Chan and other martial arts movies, and any host of extreme modern or older setting action movies. |
Originally Posted by City of Heroes
You aren't 'super' at all; your amazing talents come from intense training and innate abilities. You might have been driven to physical excellence by some all-encompassing desire for perfection or revenge, or perhaps you are not human at all, and possess powers natural to your race. With your natural origin you have to rely on your cunning and skill. This origin will give you access to Throwing Knives. This attack has a very short range and deals minor Lethal damage, as well as inflicting additional Damage over Time.
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Yes you can say one thing or another:
About adding some device to give them these abilities.
If this isn't the technology origin theme ability then what is? You don't see these individuals jumping 10 city blocks, or running 20+ blocks under 10 seconds.
The their origin doesn't have to be the only origin of their powers
Yes that is true, but this can really ruin the theme people are trying to get with this concept.
To the comment I saw somewhere about Ninja Scroll. Yes there were supernatural powers in the movie. However if you look at the protagonist vs. antagonist abilities line. Only the antagonists had supernatural abilities, some more than others, while the protagonists had nothing but skill or theoretically possible by intention. Yes they did things that could be considered beyond possible, such as jumping from tree to tree at incredible rate, or excreting poison from their skin due to over consumption. These maybe actually beyond human capability, but not any where near that of the protagonists of the movie. That is where this theme of character style/origin breaks down in the game. We have these obviously supernatural powers with no contrast. Edit: So thus why a new or modified current power is needed.
I know I missed something. Sorry if I overlooked.
As to the motorcycle concept and being done in the game already.
1. We have interchangeable power animations/effects now. (Spikes)
2. We have transportation power effects that have costume like effects. (Various Jet Packs)
3. We have costume pieces that have animations. (Tails)
4. We have different stances for running and standing possible by new powers. (ninja run)
5. We have costume pieces that stick out from the body, a lot. (Wings, Tails, Enforcer set items)
So being able to make a costume like thing pop out and change your pose to replace the normal super run ability seems very reasonable. In fact, after reading the questions from Friday, I think the vehicle question got skillfully dodged to leave vehicles that you do not "get into", like the motorcycle, to be VERY possible. So much so, that as of now, I am just waiting for motorcycles to come out as I am sure it will probably be here by the end of the year.
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A costume effect does NOT equal a POWER animation.|
Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
1. We have interchangeable power animations/effects now. (Spikes) 2. We have transportation power effects that have costume like effects. (Various Jet Packs) 3. We have costume pieces that have animations. (Tails) 4. We have different stances for running and standing possible by new powers. (ninja run) 5. We have costume pieces that stick out from the body, a lot. (Wings, Tails, Enforcer set items) So being able to make a costume like thing pop out and change your pose to replace the normal super run ability seems very reasonable. In fact, after reading the questions from Friday, I think the vehicle question got skillfully dodged to leave vehicles that you do not "get into", like the motorcycle, to be VERY possible. So much so, that as of now, I am just waiting for motorcycles to come out as I am sure it will probably be here by the end of the year. |
Seriously. No. The only "transformation" animation we have is for the Kheldians and the Werewolves, and that's *all*.
Plus: what about customization? Oh noes - we all get the SAME motorcycle? The SAME car? one of the primary reasons the devs will NOT put vehicles in the game, stated repeatedly, is they do not want the game to become City of Jetbikes.
If you want a car, or a bike, buy a car or a bike game.
If you REALLY NEED your natural character to have a "natural" travel power, then DO NOT TAKE A TRAVEL POWER. What's hard about that?
I have a character, magic-origin but only because he's got a backstory for it. He is a TURTLE.
He has no travel power, but I did put ninja run on him. He's a magical upright turtle with a gemstone shield and rock powers... But no travel. Everyone else in that group gets wings... guess who won't be getting them?
It's not up to the game to determine what YOU want to do with YOUR character, except that the game will ONLY give you certain options - period. You can justify darn near anything for pretty much every Origin in this game, no one single definition actually works for everyone, and never has. This is an old, old argument.
One that the devs have put down, and if they ever do come out with a viable vehicle system, I seriously doubt that it'll be within the next 5 or 6 issues worth of content. They just don't want to have a game where people are driving/riding things. We're superheroes. We CAN fly and we CAN leap... just do that, write it off as a gadget.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
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the only part that say anything about humans is the second sentence. and if you read further in that sentence, it say maybe you aren't human at all, and poses power natural to your RACE. it does not imply that the natural origin is just human. you are reading way to far into it.
| This could clearly define the origin, which is a theme of play, I am trying to address. that the current transportation don't exactly address the theme of play this origin's description is invoking. It seems clear by description, the human naturals mentioned mostly in this origin's description are more akin to movies like Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, various Jacky Chan and other martial arts movies, and any host of extreme modern or older setting action movies. |
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No, YOU don't want to accept what's been said many times above. Nothing in that description says you "Never ever ever ever touch a piece of technology for transportation or even as a weapon." It's talking about your core abilities. |
Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
This could clearly define the origin, which is a theme of play, I am trying to address. that the current transportation don't exactly address the theme of play this origin's description is invoking.
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| It seems clear by description, the human naturals mentioned mostly in this origin's description |
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| the human naturals mentioned |
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| You aren't 'super' at all; your amazing talents come from intense training and innate abilities. You might have been driven to physical excellence by some all-encompassing desire for perfection or revenge, or perhaps you are not human at all, and possess powers natural to your race. With your natural origin you have to rely on your cunning and skill. This origin will give you access to Throwing Knives. This attack has a very short range and deals minor Lethal damage, as well as inflicting additional Damage over Time. |
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| perhaps you are not human at all, and possess powers natural to your race |
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About adding some device to give them these abilities. If this isn't the technology origin theme ability then what is? |
How is this so damn hard for you to understand?
Using a jetpack, for instance, does not suddenly mean your punches and kicks are "tech origin," any more than taking the train or a teleporter from one zone to the next are.
If you want to be THAT "true" to your origin, take the tram and *walk.* Since sprint FAR outpaces what a "natural human" is going to do, even well trained, for a significant distance. As does Swift, quite bluntly.
Or, as I said before - take superspeed and don't consider it one of the character's powers. Consider it just like a movie - you're fast forwarding through the boring "walking to get there" part, because you're not a director and can't cut out the "They get in a car and drive for 45 minutes" part from the film. Turn it off when you're in the mission. It's not your character's power, it's your player's convenience.
I don't think, quite frankly, that this is you "trying to be true to your origin" but "trying to inconvenience yourself as much as possible while pretending it's a crusade."
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As to the motorcycle concept and being done in the game already. 1. We have interchangeable power animations/effects now. (Spikes) |
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| 2. We have transportation power effects that have costume like effects. (Various Jet Packs) |
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| 3. We have costume pieces that have animations. (Tails) |
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| 4. We have different stances for running and standing possible by new powers. (ninja run) |
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| 5. We have costume pieces that stick out from the body, a lot. (Wings, Tails, Enforcer set items) |
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| So being able to make a costume like thing pop out and change your pose to replace the normal super run ability seems very reasonable. In fact, after reading the questions from Friday, I think the vehicle question got skillfully dodged to leave vehicles that you do not "get into", like the motorcycle, to be VERY possible. So much so, that as of now, I am just waiting for motorcycles to come out as I am sure it will probably be here by the end of the year. |
No, we will not see vehicles, including motorcycles. Motorcycles - focusing JUST on that - do things NONE OF THE OTHERS do. It involves forced posing - of three body types at ALL scales, with ALL parts having a range of sizes, and trying to get them to line up in *specific* spots. You'll note there is nothing in game that does that. No, a jetpack does not. Nor do wings or tails. Nor does ninja run. It's still a standing position. All powers can still be used with everything in the game. The difference between "a different run pose" and a motorcycle is MUCH greater than the difference between "Run with this pose" and "Run with this somewhat more bent pose."
Last but not least, of course, is the fact that since you refuse to accept jetpacks - as pointed out several times in this thread - your character would refuse to use motorcycles as well. It's "still tech," of the same rough level in the game world as a jetpack, and you refuse to use those because you're remaining "true to your origin." Either that or you're a hypocrite. Or just clueless as to what you want.
But I'm sure you'll completely ignore this along with everything else. So go ahead and hold your breath while you wait.
I know that, yes, the origin does not need to define all their powers, but that does not mean that one can not still want something to be added that is lacking, a proper transportation power for a normal human other than the ninja run.
Memphis_Bill and others, I feel that I can only agree with 2 comments here.
1. The origin description is worded like it is referring to humans by the way it refers to non humans as a secondary thought later in the description, but if you must nitpick go ahead. I don't see aliens throwing knives commonly in sci-fi themes, and seems more like a human thing to do.
2. Fitting a motorcycle to a huge type could be a bit more complicated, and I did over look that.
This might be able to be over come but I don't know the work for this. However. withstanding this there is nothing else I can see restricting a motorcycle:
We have powers that give you costume like effects with animations even! You can say what ever you want, this is true.
We have powers that are customizable.
We have powers that adjust your pose.
All of this with the exclusion of needing to adjust to the huge model has been done by having an auto adjustment to the size of the motorcycle to the size and leg length of the model.
i slotted up swift and hurdle and sprint... that wit ninja run works for my natural toon.... wish i could do without ninja run.. but really its too slow without it...
I would just like some options for fly... toggle on a jetpack within the options for the regular power FLY... not the raptor packs...
No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
"The potato goes in the FRONT."
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Would you please stop trying to re-write the game code to suit your ridiculous assertions?|
Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
I know that, yes, the origin does not need to define all their powers, but that does not mean that one can not still want something to be added that is lacking, a proper transportation power for a normal human other than the ninja run.
Memphis_Bill and others, I feel that I can only agree with 2 comments here. 1. The origin description is worded like it is referring to humans by the way it refers to non humans as a secondary thought later in the description, but if you must nitpick go ahead. I don't see aliens throwing knives commonly in sci-fi themes, and seems more like a human thing to do. 2. Fitting a motorcycle to a huge type could be a bit more complicated, and I did over look that. This might be able to be over come but I don't know the work for this. However. withstanding this there is nothing else I can see restricting a motorcycle: We have powers that give you costume like effects with animations even! You can say what ever you want, this is true. We have powers that are customizable. We have powers that adjust your pose. All of this with the exclusion of needing to adjust to the huge model has been done by having an auto adjustment to the size of the motorcycle to the size and leg length of the model. |
We do not have "powers that adjust your pose" - those are called ANIMATIONS and they're BUILT INTO THE POWERS.
You clearly weren't here the last 5 years, *you know, before we had customizable / colorized powers* at all?
"An auto adjustment"... meaning what, exactly, with your extensive knowledge of this game's code? It's not maya, let me tell you that.
It's JUST YOU. You won't simply understand what I've said before:
Your character might have a natural origin but that doesn't mean he must be a LUDDITE.
I hope that he's not using guns! Because *those are not natural*, they are GADGETS. They're TECHNOLOGY.
I hope he doesn't have a shield, once more, those are *tech* items.
What about mutants? I mean, THEY can't use a magic wan.... oh wait, the LOST CURING WAND! Everyone in the game gets that, at one point, oooh - it's magic! Will you refuse its use?
Jetpacks are more common in Paragon City than cars. There are no busses. There are in fact, no motorcycles. Why? Because since the Rikti war, we've been REPURPOSING Rikti technology in order to better suit the era. Teleporters are incredibly common. Every hospital has dozens of them. Heck - the Zig must have an insane number of them what with the way heroes place a teleporter-signal on their defeated forms (an ingame definition of why they vanish).
Goodness sake, Wentworth's has their own teleporter!
So... you might want to save your sanity and use your imagination to think they're getting in their mad cow mobile, between zones.
Because there are no gas stations here either.
Please read my FEAR/Portal/HalfLife Fan Fiction!
Repurposed
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It seems there is only one answer you will accept for "proper transportation for a normal human," and that is: vehicles.|
Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
I know that, yes, the origin does not need to define all their powers, but that does not mean that one can not still want something to be added that is lacking, a proper transportation power for a normal human other than the ninja run.
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The Devs have gone on record saying that vehicles will never happen.
a) There are too many technical hurdles that need to be overcome for the development to be cost efficient. The technical hurdles have already been enumerated by us and ignored by you in your infinite knowledge of the game's code, despite the fact that many of these technical hurdles have been spelled out for us by the Developers who must work with the code you seem to know so intimately.
b) in order to make them not look ridiculous, they would need to be restricted to outdoor maps and game world only, not available in indoor instanced missions. This makes them severely restricted in comparison to every other travel power in the game, making them a non-optimal choice. Since only the diehard roleplayer will spend a power choice on a vehicle with the restrictions necessary, the development cost would produce little bang for the buck.
c) You know (and the Devs know) as well as I do that a single motorcycle or car skin is not going to be sufficient. Once it is known that vehicles are in development, we, even if we would not want to give up the power slot for a gimped travel power, would be frothing at the mouth for a "vehicle creator." We don't want "Mad Cow on a generic looking cycle." We want the "Mad Cow Cycle," complete with horns on the handlebars and a Guernsey pattern on the gas tank.
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Memphis_Bill and others, I feel that I can only agree with 2 comments here. 1. The origin description is worded like it is referring to humans by the way it refers to non humans as a secondary thought later in the description, but if you must nitpick go ahead. I don't see aliens throwing knives commonly in sci-fi themes, and seems more like a human thing to do. |
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2. Fitting a motorcycle to a huge type could be a bit more complicated, and I did over look that. This might be able to be over come but I don't know the work for this. However. withstanding this there is nothing else I can see restricting a motorcycle: |
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We have powers that give you costume like effects with animations even! You can say what ever you want, this is true. We have powers that are customizable. |
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| We have powers that adjust your pose. |
This means that when you activate a power on a motorcycle, either the motorcycle disappears and you assume the power's normal activation stance, or that every power needs to have a motorcycle animation. The first looks stupid and will break your immersion, the second is a hell of a lot of work.
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| All of this with the exclusion of needing to adjust to the huge model has been done by having an auto adjustment to the size of the motorcycle to the size and leg length of the model. |
A vehicle is an example of tech. If your character wouldn't use any of the devices that we have put forth because it would be too much tech in his natural, then how can you rationalize using a motorcycle.
The game doesn't need vehicles, and I'm glad the Devs aren't wasting time and money trying to put them in.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
The biggest technical problem, as I see it, is that this suggestion introduces not one, but a VARIETY of additional stances to the game. Currently, we have two that are functionally different - ground and air. You have two complete sets of every animation for every power ever made, one for use on the ground, one for use in the air. That's TWO OF EVERYTHING. Adding just one third stance would first require about as much work as redoing HALF of all the animations that currently exist, and in a non-trivial manner, because a bike stance would be significantly different from a standing one. Look at flight animations, and you'll notice most attacks are almost identical to their ground counterparts, but with the legs dangling down. A few are more diverse, like Air Superiority in the air vs Air Superiority on the ground (naturally, right?), but most are almost exact copies. Bike animations WOULD NOT.
And that's just bikes. If you try to invent any other kind of vehicle, like a car or a horse or a pogo stick, you're looking at ANOTHER unique stance, as well. That's enough work for BABs to have fits of rage and murder people who suggest it. He already mentioned mentioned that animation work of that scale scares the living daylight out of him in the EU show and tell. I'll find the exact quote later. It's basically a krappton of work that no-one at Paragon Studios is ever going to commission.
And then you have the other side of the problem - bikes don't strafe, bikes don't jump 10 feet up into the air from a standing start, bikes don't climb fire escapes, bikes don't sit on park benches. Bikes are also typically much bigger than regular human beings, so either they won't be able to fit through doors and roll down hallways, or you'd have a really weird form of constant clipping. What's more, bikes are long but narrow, and our collision "boxes" are actually defined as collision RADIUS, which doesn't work well on objects that aren't oblong. No doubt part of the problem Rularuu the Raveger had with his hit box that kept him out of the game.
This is a not-insignificant technical hurdle that really has very little merit in the actual game, at least as something added in as an afterthought. If this were Battlefield or GTA which was devised with vehicles in mind, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, but here you'll basically need a whole second game on top of this one to do vehicles, and that won't happen.
*edit*
Exact BABs quote, or close enough to it:
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from this thread.
| However BaB did say "Alternate animations for powers scares the willies out of me." |
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Okay, in general animating a figure to move differently, actually working with maya 2010, isn't that big a deal. I am just curious though, what about the new pistol power sets movement animation, hail of bullets? I could be wrong, but this seems like a VERY different movement animation, like the ninja run ability. However I will admit this might be a problem for their system, and uploading it to others. Great observations, as I did see this restrictions in animation, but I didn't think it was because doing such was a nightmare for their system, I just thought it was because they had more important things to do.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
The biggest technical problem, as I see it, is that this suggestion introduces not one, but a VARIETY of additional stances to the game. Currently, we have two that are functionally different - ground and air. You have two complete sets of every animation for every power ever made, one for use on the ground, one for use in the air. That's TWO OF EVERYTHING. Adding just one third stance would first require about as much work as redoing HALF of all the animations that currently exist, and in a non-trivial manner, because a bike stance would be significantly different from a standing one. Look at flight animations, and you'll notice most attacks are almost identical to their ground counterparts, but with the legs dangling down. A few are more diverse, like Air Superiority in the air vs Air Superiority on the ground (naturally, right?), but most are almost exact copies. Bike animations WOULD NOT.
And that's just bikes. If you try to invent any other kind of vehicle, like a car or a horse or a pogo stick, you're looking at ANOTHER unique stance, as well. That's enough work for BABs to have fits of rage and murder people who suggest it. He already mentioned mentioned that animation work of that scale scares the living daylight out of him in the EU show and tell. I'll find the exact quote later. It's basically a krappton of work that no-one at Paragon Studios is ever going to commission. And then you have the other side of the problem - bikes don't strafe, bikes don't jump 10 feet up into the air from a standing start, bikes don't climb fire escapes, bikes don't sit on park benches. Bikes are also typically much bigger than regular human beings, so either they won't be able to fit through doors and roll down hallways, or you'd have a really weird form of constant clipping. What's more, bikes are long but narrow, and our collision "boxes" are actually defined as collision RADIUS, which doesn't work well on objects that aren't oblong. No doubt part of the problem Rularuu the Raveger had with his hit box that kept him out of the game. This is a not-insignificant technical hurdle that really has very little merit in the actual game, at least as something added in as an afterthought. If this were Battlefield or GTA which was devised with vehicles in mind, then I wouldn't have a problem with it, but here you'll basically need a whole second game on top of this one to do vehicles, and that won't happen. *edit* Exact BABs quote, or close enough to it: from this thread. |
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See, I think this is where the disconnect is coming. This is a comic book game. The Natural origin description doesn't fit John McClane. It fits Adam Strange (who uses a jet pack). It doesn't fit Martin Riggs. It fits Batman (who uses, uh, all sorts of cool stuff). Jackie Chan might be closer (although he's used some pretty far out gadgets in some of his films), but not as close as Karate Kid (who uses a Legion flight Ring).
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Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
It seems clear by description, the human naturals mentioned mostly in this origin's description are more akin to movies like Die Hard, Lethal Weapon, various Jacky Chan and other martial arts movies, and any host of extreme modern or older setting action movies.
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However, it turned out that Smith was not a time-travelling Terminator
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We have some rather drastic changes in powers already, such as with gun type powers and spines. However adjusting to size might be a bit of a problem, but they have ignored this and let it be as awkward as anything else that doesn't resize. So resizing might just need to be dropped, and we would just deal with what is made to fit the most possible like any other power.
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Originally Posted by Lightfoot
It seems there is only one answer you will accept for "proper transportation for a normal human," and that is: vehicles.
The Devs have gone on record saying that vehicles will never happen. a) There are too many technical hurdles that need to be overcome for the development to be cost efficient. The technical hurdles have already been enumerated by us and ignored by you in your infinite knowledge of the game's code, despite the fact that many of these technical hurdles have been spelled out for us by the Developers who must work with the code you seem to know so intimately. b) in order to make them not look ridiculous, they would need to be restricted to outdoor maps and game world only, not available in indoor instanced missions. This makes them severely restricted in comparison to every other travel power in the game, making them a non-optimal choice. Since only the diehard roleplayer will spend a power choice on a vehicle with the restrictions necessary, the development cost would produce little bang for the buck. c) You know (and the Devs know) as well as I do that a single motorcycle or car skin is not going to be sufficient. Once it is known that vehicles are in development, we, even if we would not want to give up the power slot for a gimped travel power, would be frothing at the mouth for a "vehicle creator." We don't want "Mad Cow on a generic looking cycle." We want the "Mad Cow Cycle," complete with horns on the handlebars and a Guernsey pattern on the gas tank. How many examples do you want? Klingons. Predators. Really, any sci-fi race with a tradition of hand to hand combat would probably also use thrown weapons. Did you totally miss where someone you quoted made mention of differing body sizes? Not just models (male, female, huge), but actual heights. Our heroes can be between four feet and eight feet tall. The same motorcycle model that fits a six foot tall character is not going to fit an eight foot or a four foot tall character. How is coloring our powers or selecting our weapon skins remotely like having sprint / superspeed put your character on a motorcycle or in a car? If the pose is persistent (Ninja Run, Hover / Fly), then one of two things needs to happen when we activate a power. The pose needs to go away, to be replaced by the power's animation, and resume when the animation is finished; or every power needs to be animated for that pose. Ninja Run does the first, Hover / Fly does the second. This means that when you activate a power on a motorcycle, either the motorcycle disappears and you assume the power's normal activation stance, or that every power needs to have a motorcycle animation. The first looks stupid and will break your immersion, the second is a hell of a lot of work. So, what powers auto-adjust to the size of the model? I can't think of any. This would require the creation of new tech to solve your problem. A vehicle is an example of tech. If your character wouldn't use any of the devices that we have put forth because it would be too much tech in his natural, then how can you rationalize using a motorcycle. The game doesn't need vehicles, and I'm glad the Devs aren't wasting time and money trying to put them in. |
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And you still don't really seem to understand. These Devs have gone through many headaches to make things work before, and scrapped them because they didn't look good. They aren't in the habit of letting things in the game if they don't at least work for most things.|
Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
We have some rather drastic changes in powers already, such as with gun type powers and spines. However adjusting to size might be a bit of a problem, but they have ignored this and let it be as awkward as anything else that doesn't resize. So resizing might just need to be dropped, and we would just deal with what is made to fit the most possible like any other power.
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Motorcycles (you still haven't really addressed how that would make your characters any less tech than a jetpack would) would be one of these items. They aren't going to put it in the game unless it works for most character sizes, and that is only one of the problems.
Others, most already discussed here that you have dodged or just ignored:
1) Animation of powers while on the motorcycle. How do you handle this?
1a) Do you not allow other powers to work while on the motorcycle? If you do that, then motorcycles become the worst travel power in the game, not allowing you to engage in combat, and making you weaker defensively. So, how many people would willingly gimp themselves that much?
1b) Do you make new animations for each power? If that is the case, then let's go through this. Let's say that we've got 5 powersets per AT. This is lowballing it greatly, but I just want to do this as a thought exercise for you. In those 5 powersets, you've got 9 distinct powers. That's 45 powers total. For each of those powers, you've got three different animations to go through. So, that's 135 animations per AT. For the 10 base ATs, that means that you've got 1,350 animations to do. Add the Epic ATs (about 11 powers per set), and we're now at 1,394 animations to do. But wait! We've got ancillary pools, of which each would have to work with motorcycles as well (maybe except other travel powers). Ignoring passives, that's about 7 power pools, with 4 powers in each, times 3 again, for 84 more animations to do. Bringing our total to 1,478 animations. Oh, and then we've got Ancillary pools, too, and temp powers, etc. Basically, there are thousands of animations to be done just to get powers to work on the motorcycles.
Let's say that it works out to about 1,800 animations (still lowballing). In the same time as they could get all of that done, we could make 33 new powersets (9 powers per set, 3 skeleton types, both flying and on the ground animations) from an animation standpoint. Which makes more sense to you?
Also, considering that you may very well be working with a completely different tool than the animators for this game is using, please don't talk like your animation work has any impact on how long it would take an animation to be made.
2) Realistic look while moving. This includes, but is not limited to:
2a) Can the motorcycle go up hills? Right now, your body stays mostly upright while climbing hills, even steep ones. Could the motorcycle go up really steep hills? Would it stay flat, and look like it is going into the hill, with the rear wheel in mid-air? Or would it turn in the direction of the hill, requiring a new animation for each degree the bike was turned (times however many animations for the powers, remember)?
2b) Can you use the motorcycle in water? Other travel powers, even super speed, work over long expanses of water, such as Independence Port and Nerva Archipelago. How would you get there if you were using a motorcycle?
2c) How do you turn on the motorcycle, since this would be completely different from running?
2d) As mentioned above, how do you get the motorcycle to work across all heights on the same base skeleton? Even jetpacks don't really work with this, but since you're mostly behind the character, it can be hard to see. If you were on a motorcycle on a tall character, you'd be able to tell that it's hands weren't on the handlebars by a longshot.
3) Would they be able to work in instances? Every other travel power can, but I've never seen a motorcycle in the elevator before.
4) If, with all of these limitations in play, motorcycles did make it in game, who would take it? It would be markedly gimped compared to any other travel power, possibly to the point that people with just sprint made it to the missions before you. How much return are the Devs going to get from it?
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Ok. Repeat UNTIL YOU GET IT.|
Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
Okay, in general animating a figure to move differently, actually working with maya 2010,
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MAYA IS NOT AN MMO.
Saying "This is easy to do in an MMO because I do it in Maya" is like saying "I can fly the Space Shuttle because I know how to ride a bike."
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What makes you think the Devs are using Maya 2010? If the Devs are using a third party animation program, rather than hardcoding all the animations by hand into the game, then the animation program they are using is at least 8 years old. As such, it most certainly does not have the features of the latest version of Maya. Until you know what programs are used to animate this game and have learned to use them yourself, you have no idea how hard or easy it is to program the animations of this game.|
Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
Okay, in general animating a figure to move differently, actually working with maya 2010, isn't that big a deal.
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| I am just curious though, what about the new pistol power sets movement animation, hail of bullets? I could be wrong, but this seems like a VERY different movement animation, like the ninja run ability. |
Ninja Run goes the other direction. It has a specific animation and stance. However, when you activate a power, that stance is "put away" to be replaced by the normal combat stance and power animation. When the power animation is complete, the character drops back into the Ninja Run stance if the power is still toggled on.
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| However I will admit this might be a problem for their system, and uploading it to others. Great observations, as I did see this restrictions in animation, but I didn't think it was because doing such was a nightmare for their system, I just thought it was because they had more important things to do. |
Vehicles aren't being programmed, in part, because they would be a nightmare to do. MMOs are incredibly complex, and every new thing you program has to be able to interact with every other thing in game. If I recall correctly, the problem we had about a year back with characters "dancing" while activating the Pocket D Teleporter was due to a line of code in the chat interface. As a game gets older, and more code is added to it, the number of odd interactions also increases (as we are seeing now with Ultra Mode and the fact that programs running in the background on your home computer, such as Google Desktop, can have a significant impact on game performance now where they did not before).
Which leads us to the your second thing. Given the technical hurdles, and the limitations that would be necessary to get vehicles right, it simply isn't worth the cost in time and money to wade through that nightmare. The return on their investment would be negligible, at best. Therefore, they do, in fact, have far more important things to work on. I suspect that they will have more important things than vehicles to work on right up to the time the servers shut down.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Problem I see is that most people take natural as normal human. However, this isn't a normal human game, the normal human's are the pedestrians that don't seem to have any powers at all. Who's to say on Primal Earth that it's not natural for a sprinter (with no known mutation) to be able to run a super speeds? Or jump several stories?
The origin also only describes how you came to your powers. It's up to each player to deside where those powers end. To me a normal human using rocket boots to fly would not make necessarily make him a tech hero, he's just using one piece of tech to augment all his other natural powers. How did he get those rocket boots? Maybe he got Synapse a hot date, so Synapse gave the hero Positron's proto-type boots as a thank you, or maybe the villain beat down Positron and took the boots.
To me, demon's and angle's are also natural. Yes, to a normal human they are super natural, or and may even be seen as magical beings, but to the demon or angle, it's just what they where made to be. And if they happen to have wings, then flight is just a natural travel ability for them.
Not saying we don't need new travel powers, and I would love to see new ones, vehicles on top of my list even though it's probably in the trash pile of the developers. But vehicles to me are no more natural then rocket boots. I find it hard to picture any power that has a normal human moving faster then 20mph for an extended period of time as being "natural" human ability.
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Not sure if Paragon Studios uses it (or if they ever used it) but before Cryptic sold City of Heroes to NCSoft, they released an animation rig that they said they where using in current development.|
Originally Posted by Mad_Cow_Milk
Okay, in general animating a figure to move differently, actually working with maya 2010, isn't that big a deal.
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http://www.crypticar.com/
Neither Manticore nor Brass discuss "natural travel" fondly. Both are proud of their achievements in a world populated by supers, but nowhere does it imply that either eschews the travel powers already in the game. Manticore hacks into the mediporter system to get around, and Marshall Brass has you steal a Goldbricker rocket pack because he noticed that the tech is remarkably similar to something Arachnos has in development. It certainly doesn't sound like they are unhappy with the travel options in the game.
The game doesn't need more travel powers, for any origin. The ones we have are perfectly serviceable for any origin, provided you go through the effort to rationalize it, if you even care. There are many people who just want to play the game for whom origin is just another button that must be clicked before they get to start.
I would love to have jetpacks, rocket boots and piston boots as normal costume options in the character creator that animate appropriately for the travel power used, just like wings do. These would completely satisfy travel for any natural concept I have.
New story arcs coming soon (ARC IDs will be aded when I finish the arc):
So, you want to join the Hellions? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)
Sparks & Steel (level 5-20 Heroic arc)
and
So you want to join the Skulls? (level 1-14 Villainous arc)