Incredible Cosmic Power... Itty-bitty living space.

This thread has come about due to a discussion on the Galaxy Girl Thread about the problems with people playing heroes who are what I like to call "Cosmic Scale" characters.

I feel that I'm in a good position to discuss it, since I know that my main is one of them.

Firstly, though, this thread isn't about being defensive about character power, or about lambasting characters that are seen to be "overpowered" - it's just a frank discussion of those characters (in general, please try to avoid negatively commenting on other players' characters), the problems with them, the ways of dealing with them and the ways of playing them.

This is not an advice thread from me, since I'm well aware that I'm unlikely to be able to match some of the other roleplayers around in terms of giving good, generic advice.

So, to start with: What is a "Cosmic Scale" character?

Well, to me, a cosmic scale character is one whose powers and abilities theoretically (or actually) make them "too powerful for the game". Essentially, their purported abilities vastly exceed the game-mechanics that City of Heroes allows. So having a character who is utterly immune to all damage would meet this criterion. Having a character who can destroy the world is another example.

I have observed (quite a lot, particularly where my main is concerned) that a large number of people make the assumption that, because a character says he can do something, then the player wants the character to be able to do it. For example, my main has mentioned several times that he is theoretically powerful enough to destroy the whole world, if he wants to. He can't. Despite being a pretty "true-blue" hero, he has lied through his teeth about his capabilities in that regard. He has a good reason for having done so. A few characters have now, after 4 years of me RPing him, learned enough to know how vulnerable he really is, and why that level of destruction is simply beyond him.

The truth of the matter is that IC =/= OOC and OOC =/= IC. What a character says and what they are actually able to do may be vastly different things.

To me, the simple fact of the matter is that while we may introduce reasonable "flange" abilities to our characters (things that the game is incapable of representing, like super-hearing, or the ability to sense parts of the electromagnetic spectrum outside of visible light), we are also limited by two important things:

1) What the character is capable of in-game.
2) What other players will "let us get away with".

The first one is fairly simple. If your character is (allegedly) immune to all forms of damage and can destroy anything with a touch, then the instant anyone sees you soloing the Kronos Titan, they will have to assume, IC, that you overstated your capabilities, because I am pretty sure there's no build available in the game that will let you one-shot one of those puppies, and nor are you guaranteed to take no damage at all from their attacks. That's the nature of the game, and is a game-mechanics reason that anyone wanting to play a Cosmic Scale character must set limitations on their capabilities.

The second one is a lot harder, because no two players are alike, and while one player might let your ultra-telepath read their character's mind just because you say they have to be able to for concept reasons, another player might just flat-out refuse to let you. This one is a lot harder to handle, because it is entirely subjective. The onus is on the players involved to explain why their characters interact in a particular way. One player simply stating "it must be thus because my character is awesome" is god-moding.

Now, importantly, I'm not saying that Cosmic Scale characters are a bad thing. I am merely saying that they must be approached with extreme caution when it comes to playing them. There is certainly a place for them in the roleplaying world we create in the game, but it is important to be mindful of the limitations we all have to abide by, to avoid roleplaying becoming a childish game of "I win!"

Thoughts and comments, please.

Well, I guess I'll post my 50p worth as well, seeing as I also have one of these "cosmic level" characters (literally, thanks to game canon ).

Lots of people actually make claims of Ellie's capablities which go beyond what she has ever actually claimed herself. Myself though, apart from a few isolated incidents (more on this in a bit), I've never claimed power beyond that listed on her wiki page.

She has several fudge powers, all logically designed as they're a consequence of her feline attributes; but there are also other abilities which set her aside from most Peacebringers. Powers I've never really explained the origin of, and as a consequence, a few other Khelds have copied them (her biomorphing ability is the main one there). She ALSO has quite a few weaknesses; each one designed to balance the extra ability... Anyone discovering those ICly can take her down with little problem, IF she's not in her armour.

Y'see, Ellie is, and always HAS been, a type of Incarnate. But she doesn't KNOW she's an incarnate, and she may never know. She was always built to be one, from the first day I planned her out and LONG before it was ever hinted that we might get Incarnates as playable characters, and there's always been a really big clue for people if they'd only google it. Her Kheldian's name... Mikoshi.

Go google it now, I'll wait. Should be the first hit.






Read it? Good.. So now you know, and you know more than Ellie does.


It's this dormant part of her that is responsible for her unusual extra abilities, and it's also responsible for the occasional blasts of power way beyond what she can conciously do. Eventually, it might even be the end of her.


But anyway, back to OOC stuff. OOCly, Ellie is a very well built tri-form, and she's VERY powerful. There's little below an AV or GM that can take her, and she's managed to solo Paladin and Babbage in the past. She's STRONG.

So, because of that, and because of the other thing, I try HARD to keep her well away from plots, as she could oh so very easily break them, which isn't nice. I prefer she stick to social RP (which is more fun for me), and so I get irritated when there's plot in my face; yes, even plot from friends (I usually end up helping a little there,but I still try to keep to the fringe of it though).

Originally, I wasn't ever going to explain all this to anyone bar the few that already know (most of) it. But now, of course, we're getting Incarnate ability in the game, so all bets are off! I might keep it purely OOC, I might not, we'll see.

I have two very powerful characters that could be considered cosmic level heroes to a degree, Starborn and Mileena Lim.

Mileena is a 2000 year old sorceress from another world, as such I've gone through several builds of her to display her powers, almost always a Blaster until the current build, Controller, which really suits her. Now I never really go beyond what the game allows in game, maibly because she's almost never played, but her powers have been stated to be incredibly strong. That said her body is no more vulnerable than the average person, meaning a punch to the face would really hurt and bullets are a big problem.

Naturally I can claim magical shielding against such things, but only as far as the game displays. Thing is I've had her always put a limit on her powers while on Earth so no to draw attention, and even her shields would likely be shredded by enough gattling guns.

As for Starborn she was always ment to be a tribute to Superman, it's written into her backstory that she's a lifelong fan of the comics, and as such she has very similar powers. While I always keep her powers to in game limitations for combat, I add that she has x-ray vision, solar charging, and ultra accute hearing.

Outside of Earth's electro-magnetic barrier she's even more powerful, able to hear the EM spectum, travel at the speed of light, and can't be harmed, but once she's in the barrier again that power is repulsed and she reverts to normal.

One aspect to Star that's drawn from the game is that, as of so far, nothing seems to be able to cut her skin, she's never bled her own blood, although she does feel pain.

She's definitely going to go Incarnate when she can, since she's supposed to be a true Paragon.

Otherwise my toons tend to use weapons, gadgets, stealth, and martial arts, mainly because I'm a sucker for the hero who only needs a costume and a concience.

Okay... well, my personal advice to people wanting play cosmic level characters is: don't. Not in this game. DCUO maybe.

I'll give the mechanical example in terms of the DC universe. I used to pretty much collect RPGs, the pen-and-paper ones, not what software houses call RPGs. So, when the DC universe RPG came out, I snarfed it. It had problems. Somehow it had to encompass characters like Superman, and characters like Batman. It proved to be... less than satisfactory. The mega-characters were okay, but human scale characters were pretty poorly handled, and mixing the two in any situation just left the lighter characters sitting around wondering why they bothered.

This was very pronounced in the DC RPG, but is a problem in any game with disperate power levels.

Back when GG started, we had that kind of differentiation. As a result, even if your character started out as a lightly powered character, they tended to escalate. Mine was War Crow. Crow was a Welsh farm boy who thought he was the Champion of the Morrigan. He knew magic, which he largely used to accelerate his healing and empower the katana he hit things with. But, he was a magician. Roleplay-wise, he could theoretically do anything and eventually, he did. I suppose he was a sort of Incarnate.

Largely as a result of roleplay, he discovered that he had made the whole Morrigan thing up. He was a willworker, able to manifest his thoughts in any way he wished, and having spent a night on Cader Idris once, he had gone mad and dreamed up the whole idea of the Morrigan choosing him. (There's a legend that if you spend a night on that mountain, you come down a poet, or insane. Crow was no poet.)

He became so powerful, there was no point in playing him and just about every character I've had since has been an attempt to do better.

First came Jason Caine. You can't kill him, permanently, but this is just an expression of game mechanics. Unless we choose to permanently retire a character, they just wake up in hospital. He's a magician, and very old, but nothing like Crow.

I came back and created Annette. Annette is just human. In fact, one of the reasons for creating her was to explore the boundaries between human and superhuman. She is many, many times more interesting to play than Crow or Jason, and I believe that the Incarnate mechanics will provide some more interest from her before she becomes boring, not to mention the morality shift system.

She has over-powered abilities, but they are massively limited to roleplay situations. An example is her 'super-hearing,' which is powerful, but has characteristics which make it unusable in a combat situation and leave her vulnerable.

Even with Annette I've done almost all I can do with her and I want to explore something else. Gunwitch, Annette's Praetorian counterpart, is designed to replace her. She's a very different beast, and has certain characteristics which are 'over-powered' such as an ability to see anything from 2cm microwaves to 1nm ultraviolet. However, she's human and the character interest comes in what she has done to herself (and what she has done in general) to end up the way she is, not in her amazing abilities or high-tech super-weapons.

Um... where was I going with this?

Mega-characters can be interesting, but frequently their interaction with other characters is problematic in the extreme. Richard, for example, is at his best when he's being human, and worrying about not being.

If you're thinking of creating a character with near god-like abilities (or turning one you have into such a beast), be very careful of why you're doing it. If your answer is anything even similar to "because I want to play a really powerful being" or "I want to be the centre of attention" then don't. You may like it, but no one else will.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's honestly the best advice I can think of.

Interesting posts from both Shadowe, FFM and Birdy.
Hmm. I think my most powerful characters are probably Alpha and Umbral Nightwalker.

Alpha possibly could destroy the world...given enough time to build four more orbital rail-cannons and the huge ammount of power needed to punch five impervium lance projectiles into the core. And he wouldn't anyway, because then he'd be stuck, bored out of his cerebral core for frag knows how long.

Nightwalker, well...mums the word, for now

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Ellie's Kheldian is a portable shrine? Well, that makes sense, I guess.

*shrug*

Personally, my opinion is this: it's a superhero game. Emphasis on super. Characters should be slinging around phenomenal cosmic power, whether in the form of orbital rail guns, turning all matter to cheese, or whatever else their creators can come up with. So if your character could theoretically destroy the world with it, fine. Just don't forget that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of other people around who can do the same thing (and conversely the same number of people whose capabilities would save the word instead), so there'll always be someone around to stop you.

Okay, so I'll admit this approach isn't perfect, especially when you run into people who will utterly disregard this and insist their character is so powerful that nothing else can overcome their abilities - or you bump into the complete other side of the spectrum and find the 'average human superhero' whose only powers are a fancy gun and five million tons of raw grit, and whose player insists that's enough to defeat any super-powered opponent...without having a plan. Then things can get a little prickly. Thankfully, that doesn't happen too often. In general, people tend to have enough common sense to know that in a world full of supers, theirs isn't more super than anyone else because, well, everyone's super.

A juicy target, a few peeps as back up, and a flash arrow to the face. They won't know what hit 'em

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

One of my favourite forum RP characters way back was the local god-like character. He'd started as the comic relief, but the more I thought about it, the more ludicrous some of the things he did were.

But, and here's the thing; after 4 years, maybe one person had actually worked it out. The problem with a character who can do anything is that they are boring. And, here's the other thing, bored. So, 99.9% of the time, he was nothing more than a sword swinger and the worst mage in recorded history. Why? Because it was funny. And fun, both for myself and the character. Potential to do something is one thing, it's more what you do with it, I find.

CoH-wise, Sera has the magical potential to do whatever she likes, essentally. It's still liable to burn her out (which is what happened to her recently), but it's incredibly unlikely that I'll really mention it again outside of this. The NHU's main mage (*waves at Arete*) gets exasperated by the fact she's utterly apathetic about it. I don't find her dull to either RP or play as, as she's odd enough in personality and exactly as powerful as she needs to be for a mission. Occasionally she under-estimates, admittedly.

Uh, anyway. Yeah. I don't see a problem with characters that are ludicrously powerful, providing they're sensible about it. If you can end threats to the world/the world with a click of your fingers, no-one cares. You don't, they don't and everyone around you doesn't.

*shrugs, hands over 2p for a steam of conciousness tract*

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defin...=god%20modding

Quote:

Originally Posted by eltonio This is over the top mental slavery.

Well, Smurch got the point.

Also, Common Sense: If you look that up you'll find it's a trait many MMO RPers lack.

See, I'm going to have to disagree, Raven. You seem to be making the assumption that extremely powerful = godmoding. That's kind of... well, entirely false.

A lot of my characters tend to fall on either the 'tough guy with a gimmick' end of the scale, or the 'phenomenal cosmic powers!' end of the scale, with little in between, for whatever reason. Of my cosmic-ish characters, a lot of them tend to have trouble controlling their powers, and spend as much time fighting their own tendency to go nuclear as they do the bad guys.

My take? If the threat is a match for them, what does it matter that they could accidentally blow up the planet or whatever? As long as the conflict makes sense, the scale is more window dressing than anything else.

One of my characters is probably on the "cosmic" power levels being discussed here, but I've made sure to give him a major RPed handicap to explain away the in-game restrictions. And keep him from getting on people's nerves with complaints of godmoding.

Evan Horizon is my Science origin Grav/Kin 'troller. His backstory is that, sometime before the first Rikti invasion, he was involved in a science experiment that went haywire, causing him to vanish and be presumed dead. A couple of years ago he mysteriously returned with a slightly altered personality and new powers. The basic concept is that the experiment/accident sent his mind and body careening through time and space, warping his experiences and perceptions to the point of near-insanity. In an act of self-preservation, he's forced himself to mentally regress to a certain degree.

In present-day Paragon City, he's considered a sort of cosmic idiot-savant. He seems to cause inexplicable distortions to the laws of physics simply by virtue of his presence more than any real effort on his part, and it all seems perfectly normal to his perspective. He's also prone to occasional bursts of technical brilliance or scientific insight that seems out of place with his normal demeanor. If he were to ever come close to regaining his full mental faculties, there's little doubt that he would be a force to be reckoned with, but such a representation is well beyond his current in-game capabilities.

In a nutshell: think Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen crossed with Caboose from Red vs. Blue, and you might come close.

Cosmic Power toon are fun to play ..in the right setting .. i have made and played two such Toons .. but have only RPed them in suitable company .. one started of as a way to "deal" with CP toons in Pok D..in a light hearted mannor using the most evil weapon of agreeing with them ..

for everyday RP , CP toons are a major problem .. and tend to negate most plots or story lines ..

I also hold the view that there are CP toon , that are CP not because they have passed the peak of power usage ..and now their fire bolt can cut a rikit mothership in half .. but because of the vast width of their powers and assests ...they are so rich they can buy islands , big ones , they have personal AI, personal armies , homes ((not bases)) that are the most well defened thing on the planet , they have the ear of the goverment , UN , Vanguard , longbow , and Malta . they are untouchable by legal system ..are one first name terms with Statesman and his crew.. These are often worse than the " i am a god " toon

Clearly we need to set up the ..Home for Powered Persons that have crossed the threshold and are now just to big for the universe day care complex ...

Power as in cosmic abilities to do anything
or
Power as in very powerful / incarnate and on same level as Statesman and Recluse?

It is not completly the same you see...

Elizabeth is/was meant to be same level as Recluse from day one. As I planned her to be a leader of an SG of villains/demons/witches/vampires and more... That was intentional. And I have been burned down a few times for having that in my biography. But I wanted her to be not a follower of Recluse in any way... Old and arrogant enough to stand on the same level as him. I never was a fan of hero worshipping... and that is the same of my villain vs. the top game villain.

But the power doesn't make her hard to rp. She has so many weaknesses that are wellknown. She is a vampire... same age and power as Dracula in the original book by Bram Stoker, who btw was defeated by just a few mere mortals. Augmented by a deal with Dark gods that gave her an external source of energy. And 400 years of studying dark sorcery/witchcraft.

But all weaknesses of a vampire are wellknown. The dark power source is an artifact. Spells and incarnations can do everything but will cost time and preperation for most.

A lot of her influence from behind is the power that is the hardest to keep clear of godmodding. Most of the time she just missed something... or one of her flunkies slipped up so that she did. Otherwise she would be able to influence the whole Isles. And that I can't have. Still with events and global plots the Court is mostly there. So the influence can be seen in game.

Checking her in-game power... Completely willing to test against any other god-like beings there. As I finally finished her to the levels that she can solo AV's and some GM's. And yes... powers that can come her way will be grabbed with both hands. So she will end up an incarnate in the new system.

I purposely tend to make my character concepts 'weak' in comparison to a lot of people. Such as Unhearted, a spines/fire; rather than her spines being an ability, it's a disability.

Chopkicks is ma/sr and just a horrible 'hero'. Although with i17, I'm creating a genie - and as the title suggests... incredibly cosmic powers, itty bitty living space.

I have only one Character that could be Cosmic... well kind of. I seem to put flaws into my characters for the very reason I don't like playing "I got the power!" Types.

Rotten Luck is a Zombie I had Rped his head cut off ran over by a car and spine cut. All was regenerated back together really his head was put back on the neck and it reconnected.

In game wise I got him near that very point. He's Willpower/Dark Melee Tanker and I'm IOing him up even more as max as I can. Even then I have a way to take him out and only one other person knows it.

Back to the subject of Cosmic Superpowers... SUPERMAN!!! The Big gun himself in the DC universe has the power and might to do almost anything even destroy the world. So why don't his punches KILL? Why doesn't he just execute Lex Luther? Reason he don't want to he Chooses to pull his punches and the same can be said for Cosmic Heroes in the game.

Even in the comics there are reasons the Cosmic Villains don't just crush anyone. Lets look at from a tv show Star Trek next gen Q he could do anything why didn't he... it not fun to just make the Enterprise crew mindless.

So one way a Cosmic character would limit themselves is personality. Take the example of fighting Kronos... "If I take this robot down with all my might with out thinking it could crush someone when it falls.. better give them time to get clear so I go pull my punches."

Or "If I hit as hard as I could it would fly into that building with the kinetic force of my punch better just damage it a bit at a time to be sure."

I'mma agree with Birdies last post. This is the danger with making characters CP level. So much so that, in light of that post, I wouldnt really consider any of mine that level.

Examples?

Alpha; He's as cunning as a robo-fox and commands what ammounts to a six-robot army. And he has an orbital railcannon. But; get him on his own and, while he can beat an average baseline human, he's get the bolts beaten out of him by even a veteran soldier. Reason (the railcannon) is powerful, but very limited use; he saves that for hitting things like large mobs, AV/Heroes and the like (I use warburg missiles as 'ammunition'). He also daren't risk using it too much, in case someone gets a bead on it; it cost a lot of time and money for him to make, something even he couldnt recoup in a hurry.

Leon DeFeurard; a medieval era Vampire Lord and Sire of the DeFeurard bloodline. He's stupidly hard to keep dead and, even if you blew his head off, he'd just go and stick it back on. He also trained out the weaknesses of crossing water, direct sunlight and holy icons (not to say that he doesn't burn in even dim light, and never tans, and holy icons make his eyes itch.)
He also has next to no command over the undead, limited if any ranged capability and less magical skill than most other vampires. He relies instead on his high healing factor and his skill with his katana. That and teleporting in and out of fights if needs be.
Of course, out damage his healing factor and he's looking at a long sleep for the next couple of hundred years.

I think possibly the nearest to CP I have is Lord Atom, who I wanted to be the typical, insane Archvillain. He's an irradiated, headcase mess, wearing clunky power armour to contain the radiation that both drives him, his powers, keeps him alive and keeps him up loony creek with no paddle.
He has nearly unlimited radioactive power. But that doesn't mean it's particularly fast. He can make things blow up as well as any other villain with radiation powers. He *could* poison the whole Freedom Phalanx with it...if they, y'know, stood still and twiddled their thumbs while he did so for about...a month or so?
He just doesn't run out of power, though. And he's so insane he came out the other side and has plans so complicated that people go a little nutty trying to keep up with them.

If I ever got a character that ended up hitting CP levels, and people said so, I'd either be hitting them with a large nerfbat or deleting them. I know I find super godly powerful characters annoying (Hello, Pocket D) and I hate to think of myself taking their place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

*sigh*

Raven, I think we're suffering from a fundamental disconnect, here. I say 'very powerful', while you hear, for some funny reason, 'godmoding twit'. Please note that 'very powerful' does not carry any connotations beyond being... well, powerful. I never once said 'more powerful than X', with 'X' being the canon (or otherwise) character of your choice.

Perhaps an example from my own stable of characters might help? Probably my most 'powerful' roleplay character is my main, Energon X. E-X is a living portal to a universe that never developed time after the big bang, so is basically just a huge cloud of energy in stasis. When he uses his powers, the portal opens slightly, feeding time into that frozen 'verse. And a whole lotta kaboom comes back the other way, which he then channels into energy blasts and punches. Cosmic? Heck yeah. He could probably crack the planet if he sneezed at the wrong time (well, if he still had a nose, anyways- his powers manifesting blew off the lower half of his face, and may still slowly be consuming him from the inside). However, for obvious reasons, he'd really rather not blow up the world, even if blowing up like that wouldn't kill him.

He also retains most of the standard human vulnerabilities, which he attempts to compensate for with body armour and a few gadgets (represented in-game by the Munitions APP, inspirations, a Celerity: Stealth IO and the HUD). Aside from a few other quirks- being able to see pretty much the entire electromagnetic spectrum and a fair number of other energy types, flight, and superspeed- that's about it.

So. Cosmic? Yeah, I'd say so. Godmoding? Uhm... he's a pretty fair shot, but he can still miss, and if Nitoichi took it into her head to stab him one, it would cause him some significant problems of the bleeding-out-variety. Or possibly exploding >.O

EDIT- Yah hah... I must be running a little slow. Seems to me that a lot of the naysayers are using 'cosmic power' as a synonym for Mary-Sue. Maybe we could agree to a distinction in terms?