What I'd Do To Rage
By
Airhammer,
Posted on: 2010-04-19 11:47 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I do believe it is.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
And the fact that you can skip over the defense debuff sounds like another design flaw.
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Originally Posted by Oxades
I still dont see any real evidence that rage is going to be changed anytime soon or even that it will ever be changed. Has Castle or any other developer said anything recently about changing rage? How do we know Castle hasnt already looked at it and decide that it good as is? What would be the point of a change, to make rage better or worse?
As someone who plays mostly Tankers (so I cant say anything about a Brute), I dont see a need to change SS at all. Its very good but not so good that it out shine the rest. Fire does more BPS, Mace and Axe have more AOE, Dark is more survivable so it not over powered. This thread shows that the pros and cons of rage have some people liking it and some people not, that sounds like balance to me. So again I ask would the goal be to make rage better so more people take SS or worse so less people take it? If I were a developer I would leave rage alone and spend my time on something like ET, a power that did go from over used to under used. |
Yeah, probably better 'fixing' the sets that are actually broken - broken in that they get very little play. People like SS and it's not overshadowing all the competing sets, so it's probably better to leave it alone. If the devs really want to change SS, make a second set of SS to represent non-hulk superstrength type characters. They could reuse all the animations, they'd just have to reset the numbers however they like. Then you'd have an all new powerset for people to play with, using one of the most popular concepts in the super hero genre, super strength.
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To help compensate for the ToHit going from 20 to 5. I thought it only fair, but I admit I am reaching a bit with that one. |
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Why add ToHit Debuff Resistance?
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Though in this game (unlike in the comics where super strong characters struggle against super dexterous ones) super strong characters don't have much of a problem hitting super dexterous characters. Powers like Rage tend to indicate that. Quote:
| Rather than giving it fixed recharge, what happens if you make it a toggle? |
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Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Did you drop the damage from 80% to 74% to represent the loss in damage from the current 10 seconds of -9999% in Rage's crash? If so, I suspect that this number would need to be a bit larger than 6% enhanced damage.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Well most builds are going to stack rage to some point, so simply stopping the stacking will nerf the damage enough, imo. And on top of that you'd be bringing the to hit down to a bit over 1/4 effectiveness - so like I suggested, if you were going to nerf the damage bonus on top of all that, then I'd like to see a reduction on the end cost to make up for that.
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i think rage is decent where its at, however, i think instead of a -dmg period, i think it would be better to do a -tohit/acc period (like flooring it the same way that the -dmg works on it now) and just removing the debuff component (the -end component is fine, but very annoying but you lose a lot of stamina after your rage, so it fits)
To be honest, the more I play my SS/WP Brute the more I dislike the crash that comes with Rage.
I would like to see Rage be a toggle. I'm not entirely sure how much the +tohit/damage buffs would have to be reduced or how much the toggle would cost end wise.
I want my cake and I would like to eat it too please. 
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I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of SS players don't like the crash, if only because it's forced downtime and forced downtime isn't fun. Altering Rage so the crash is eliminated increases the fun factor of the set, and eliminates the problem of being fair to Resist and Defense sets all at once.
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Originally Posted by Clouded
To be honest, the more I play my SS/WP Brute the more I dislike the crash that comes with Rage.
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That's why I said 'a bit over 1/4'. I don't remember what 20% acc converts to in 'to hit' but I know its not much. Like I said, though, overall, I liked your suggestion.
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
Note the 5% ToHit also has 20% Accuracy backing it up, so it isn't reduced to 1/4, though it isn't as good as Rage is now on ToHit, and this is intentional, as I gave my reasoning for this above. Nerfing the ToHit allows the damage to stay higher than it would otherwise (IMO). To me that's balanced, but YMMV of course.
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Many of these proposals would change Rage beyond recognition; what happens to everyone who slotted up recharge first if it's turned into a click power that ignores recharge buffs and debuffs? Or even a toggle, most of which don't get slotted for recharge as a priority.
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I could understand a nasty crash like that if rage made ss really outperform compteting sets, especially damage-wise, but it really doesn't.
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Originally Posted by Daemodand
I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of SS players don't like the crash, if only because it's forced downtime and forced downtime isn't fun. Altering Rage so the crash is eliminated increases the fun factor of the set, and eliminates the problem of being fair to Resist and Defense sets all at once.
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Originally Posted by heraclea
many of these proposals would change rage beyond recognition; what happens to everyone who slotted up recharge first if it's turned into a click power that ignores recharge buffs and debuffs? Or even a toggle, most of which don't get slotted for recharge as a priority.
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super strength set b!
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How is that when rage drops you still lose -20% def even if you have another stacked....
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Originally Posted by Psiphon
SO's and Hasten will allow you to stack Rage and therefore completely negate the -Def in the crash. It's impossible to avoid the End crash and
-Damage period. |
I can't see Rage being the only power in Superstrength that gets changed. I think eventually the whole set will get looked at, because as they proved with Psi domi's having a set based around 2 overpowered powers isn't what they want.
I can see a massive nerf to Rage and a small nerf to Footstomp and a corresponding buff to the rest of the set. Performance wise the set probably isn't too far from where it should be, but how it gets there is wrong.
Currently Build Up has a 1/3rd uptime on even high recharge builds, so for Rage to be perma it would need to be 1/3rd of the buff you get from Build Up, or have a crash. Personally I hate powers with crashes, so by the time it hits scrappers I would hope it is crashless, but I can see them keeping a crash of some kind, though I would be shocked to see over 50% damage and 10-20% tohit.
I do however find it strange that people are saying Rage isn't overpowered. Stick it in Fire Melee and see what you think of all the Fire/Shield toons then. The only context where it isn't overpowered is because the rest of SS needs a buff.
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No you don't.|
Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
How is that when rage drops you still lose -20% def even if you have another stacked....
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You still have the damage crash, but you have avoided the defense crash.
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Yes. It's because the -Defense is set up as "-20% Defense which occurs 2 minutes after you click this power. This effect can't stack with itself". The way "Does not stack from same caster" effects work is essentially by removing the previous effect and adding the new effect. If you remove the old -Defense which hasn't hit yet, and replace it with a new -Defense with a new timer, there will be no -Defense coincident with the -Damage or -Endurance (neither of which are set up to not stack). Considering it's impossible to overlap two crashes, no matter how much recharge you apply, removing the "Does not stack from same caster" flag from the -Defense effect would restore the crash to what it's meant to be.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
I do believe it is.
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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
That's why I said 'a bit over 1/4'. I don't remember what 20% acc converts to in 'to hit' but I know its not much. Like I said, though, overall, I liked your suggestion.
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The more Tohit you have already, the more effect Accuracy has. But assuming your Accuracy is at least 1.0 (100%; that is, the power's accuracy multiplier is 1.0 and you have no accuracy enhancements or accuracy buffs), sufficient Tohit (sufficient ::= BaseHitChance + Tohit - TohitDebuff = no more than 5% below the target's Defense) maxes out your chance to hit all by itself. 1,900% Accuracy will guarantee a maxed chance to hit, as well, no matter how much your Tohit has been debuffed. If you have no Tohit buffs, no Tohit debuffs, and the target is a +0 with no Defense, 126.66...% Accuracy will guarantee maxed chance to hit (assuming "you" are a player, and not a critter/pet).
Achieving 1,900% Accuracy(Modifier) using most nukes (accuracy multiplier 1.4) requires 1,257.14% between Accuracy slotting and Accuracy buffs. Psychic Wail (1.5) requires 1,666.66...%. (Full Auto has a 1.35 multiplier and so requires slightly more than most nukes. Rain of Arrows and Blizzard summon a pet whose attack has a 1.0 multiplier and so require the full 1,900%)
Achieving 126.66...% Accuracy(Modifier) using most normal attacks (accuracy multiplier 1.0) requires 26.66...% Accuracy between slotting and set bonuses -- a single Acc SO covers this (and then some), but it's only sufficient for +0s with no defense when you've got no Tohit debuffs.
Effectively, Accuracy values run the gamut between 0% and 1,900% while Tohit values run between -100% and 200.35%. And even at 200.35% Tohit, it's posible for a critter to force you into needing Accuracy (Bosses and up can get 175% Defense, resulting in 25.35% net tohit which requires a 374.75% Accuracy Modifier to max out your hit chance)
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Making the debuff resistable would be a nice start.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
He didn't say he wanted to get rid of the defense debuff, he said he wanted to find some way to make the crash fair to both defense and resistance based sets. Specifically, he pointed out that distributing the loss in damage protection between both defense and resistance does not solve the problem.
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We'll always have Paragon.
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Point taken, but something had to be given in exchange for no crash. Better ToHit than Damage, yes?|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
That's why I said 'a bit over 1/4'. I don't remember what 20% acc converts to in 'to hit' but I know its not much. Like I said, though, overall, I liked your suggestion.
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Originally Posted by Heraclea
Many of these proposals would change Rage beyond recognition; what happens to everyone who slotted up recharge first if it's turned into a click power that ignores recharge buffs and debuffs?
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Currently Build Up has a 1/3rd uptime on even high recharge builds, so for Rage to be perma it would need to be 1/3rd of the buff you get from Build Up, or have a crash. Personally I hate powers with crashes, so by the time it hits scrappers I would hope it is crashless, but I can see them keeping a crash of some kind, though I would be shocked to see over 50% damage and 10-20% tohit.
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Explain? But when rage drops it automatically puts -20% def debuff...
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
No you don't.
You still have the damage crash, but you have avoided the defense crash. |
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Activate Rage during the crash (or before) and the -Defense disappears.
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Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
Explain? But when rage drops it automatically puts -20% def debuff...
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The best comics are still 10�!
My City of Heroes Blog Freedom Feature Article: "Going Rageless?"
If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I do however find it strange that people are saying Rage isn't overpowered. Stick it in Fire Melee and see what you think of all the Fire/Shield toons then. The only context where it isn't overpowered is because the rest of SS needs a buff.
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That's why it's not overpowered in SS, because the set is obviously designed around it.
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With Hasten and SO's, Rage will be available again before it expires. If you click Rage it will be stacked and the -Def will not be applied when the current Rage expires. Monitor your defense and run some tests if you like.
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Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
Explain? But when rage drops it automatically puts -20% def debuff...
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L50s: Tanks: Cryofission - Ice/EM - Dr Celsius - Fire/Ice - Saint George - SD/SS | Controllers: Psichosis - Ill/Kin - Major Chaos - Ill/Stm | Scrappers - Neutron Crusader - DM/SR
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And this is indicative of poor set balance. I do love SS and whatever happens I wouldn't be keen on a nerf, but if a set is balanced around an overpowered skill then the set as a whole needs looking at.|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
That's why it's not overpowered in SS, because the set is obviously designed around it.
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See: what happened to /psi. People told themselves PSW wouldn't get touched because you had to slog through 38 levels of crap powers to get to it, but it did get changed for precisely that reason.
Having a set underperform without an overpowered skill is poor set design. You shouldn't have to suffer with awful tier 1 and 2 attacks because you get an overpowering BU power later on.
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Basically the defense crash is on a timer.|
Originally Posted by SilverBullet_NA
Explain? But when rage drops it automatically puts -20% def debuff...
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If you activate Rage again BEFORE or during the crash, it resets the timer and wipes out the previous value. As such, the defense crash is negated.
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I was under the impression that Super Strength, as a set, was balanced around Rage. Which would imply that rage is not overpowered as a power on its own.
Of course it will be overpowered in the hands of another set, because it was not designed for those sets.
Would you call Practiced Brawler overpowered in the hands of a blaster? Of course you would, it's not for them.
In any case, Rage has been retooled at least once so far (and fairly recently). I wouldn't expect any changes in the near future concerning the power as it is.
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If Castle thinks it needs changing, it will be. If not, it won't change.
*shrug* Sounds like a fairly simple equation to me. And Rage works pretty well as it is, for me and those I play with anyhow.