What I'd Do To Rage

You're operating under the assumption that SS is balanced and doesn't require a change. If that is the case, I'd tend to agree. Changing flavor for flavor's sake is kind of pointless.

However, I wrote that post under the opposite assumption, SS needs works. I'm not just railing on Rage/Footstomp, mind you. It'd be nice if the lower tiers were better so you didn't have to 'slog through' the crappy levels just to get to 'the good stuff.' It's one thing to have great powers to look forward to. It's another to hate the fight up to that point.

I totally agree with this thought process.

Here's the deal. SS has shorter recharge times, and thus lower corresponding Damage Scales on its attacks. Rage basically compensates for this by granting near-perma-buildup, effectively increasing the lower Damage Scale of its attacks through a single massive buff that is active 12/13ths of the time. This buff isn't an issue when isolated to the set, but does some silly things with APPs/PPPs, Pool Powers, Damage Auras, and Shield Charge. Rage indiscriminately over-buffs the effective DS of these attacks just as well as it compensates for the lower Damage Scales built into the set.

The ToHit buff is an issue as well. The only thing it can be compared to is Targeting Drone, which only grants ToHit. This value should most certainly be lowered. Then there is the issue of stacking, which does have a harsh penalty but becomes broken when Temp Powers and Vet Powers still do full damage while having up to 62% ToHit buff. Stacking also overclocks APPs and PPPs to an extreme level.

So how does one account for Rage operating well within the set, but becoming broken when external abilities are considered? We'd first need to alter the performance of some of its skills.

• Jab: Increase recharge from 2 to 3 seconds. Increase damage scale from 0.68 to 0.84. Endurance increases as well.
• Punch: Increase recharge from 4 to 6 seconds. Increase damage scale from 1 to 1.32. Endurance increases as well.
• Haymaker: Stays the same.
• Hurl: Increase recharge from 8 to 10 seconds. Increase damage scale from 1.64 to 1.96. Endurance increases as well.
• KO Blow: Recharge is reduced to 20 seconds.
• Foot Stomp: Stays the same.

This would bring Super Strength closer to the progression of other sets in Damage Scales, but would also necessitate a change to Rage. Rage would need to have its damage decreased, but would also need to have its crash lightened. I would change the dynamic of this skill completely, while trying to retain the "feel" of Rage. The numbers below are listed at Tanker/Brute values.

• 1: Rage would grant 120 seconds of a 35% damage buff tagged so that the effect does not stack from the same caster. It would also grant 120 second of 5% ToHit buff tagged so that the effect dos not stack from the same caster.
• 2: Rage would also grant 10 seconds of 25% enhanced damage and 20 seconds of 10% enhanced damage, as well as 10 seconds of 10% ToHit Buff and 20 seconds of 5% ToHit Buff.

The end result is that Rage would grant 10 seconds of 70% enhanced damage and 20% ToHit, followed by 10 seconds of 45% enhanced damage and 10% ToHit, and lastly having 100 Seconds of 35% enhanced damage and 5% ToHit.

Rage WOULD be able to stack in this situation. Stacking it would layer the buffs on a shorter timer but would not stack the buffs that are on a 120 second duration. This would allow builds that run high recharge to effectively click Rage before it has expired to function as a mini-build up, or allow them to increase their ToHit Buff to cut through enemy defenses and debuffs.

The crash would be lessened as well. Endurance should be brought down to about 45% of what it currently is, and the -damage component would also be layered as -9881% enhanced damage for 3 seconds, and -118% enhanced damage for 10 seconds. This would grant 3 second of -9999% enhanced damage followed by 7 seconds of -118% damage (causing you to do no nearly no damage for 3 seconds and roughly 50% damage for 7 seconds with stacked rage). There would be no other penalties to Rage.

These changes would allow SS sets with high global recharge to increase their effectiveness by stacking Rage. A Perma-double stack of Rage would still have less of a penalty than a single stack of Rage does currently, but it would also offer less total benefit. The increased DS to Jab, Punch and Hurl, as well as the 5 second reduction to KO Blow, would make up the lost performance in Rage. I also feel that SS should not be penalized for pursuing global recharge, and by layering its buffs like this one can actually encourage stacking Rage when extra ToHit or damage is needed without overpowering the set. (I think.)

Wow, that is very interesting! I like this suggestion a lot.

I don't agree.

How about Soul Drain and Follow Up effects on non-SS powers?

I really don't think Footstomp is broken, it's the crown of the set.

For Brutes on SOs, SS is at the bottom of ST damage, just slightly above Electric Melee.



You can't do this with out SERIOUSLY improving the rest of the set.

Reducing Footstomp's damage would necessitate a major damage increase for the lower tier attacks.

Fantastic, now we have Stone Melee without the superior mitigation of Stone Melee.




I also think you'd need to add another PBAoE or two to the set. Footstomp is the workhorse of SS.

Where other sets can have 2 to 3 good to great PBAoEs, Super Strength gets just one excellent one.


Here's some fun numbers from Bill Z.

Thread HERE.


So there you have it, Spin with double stacked Follow Up (easy) beats Footstomp with double stacked rage (a nearly atrocious situation for any set without massive endurance recovery - that's not even taking into account the hinderance of the zero damage period every 60 seconds).

Footstomp's advantage is a massive Radius & KD vs. Spin having a 14s recharge vs. Footstomp's 20s - On top of that Claws also gets Eviscerate AND Shockwave.

Really, I'm not seeing a problem.


You're asking for an entire revamp of SS to the point that it would basically be a really gimped version of stone melee. No thanks.


Will you suggest this for other build up powers as well?

Or is it really ok for double stacked focus to affect damage auras and epic pool powers, but not rage?

Double stacked Followup is less than half the +Damage of Double Stacked Rage. It's less than the +Damage of single-stacked Rage even. And it has to hit. You speak of Followup and Rage as if they are equals when they're not. Rage is far and away better.

From the blog you cited:

"Eventually, the populace of the game will see that one class/ability has an advantage over everyone else. They too want that advantage so they reroll so they can have that ability as well. What we then get is “Flavor of the Month” builds that are simply put, better than everyone else. And what happens if everyone adopts the FOTM? Well, there is ridicule to those NOT using the FOTM, as well as a level of uniformity coming to your game world that you didn’t design for. Suddenly everyone in your game is a Cleric, because Clerics are overpowered. In that case, why develop anything but stuff for Clerics to do? Because that game would eventually become a boring world of just Clerics and die the death it deserves."

SS is not so good that it's FOTM, 'everyone' has not adopted it, and coh is not a world of SS'ers. This despite the fact that SS is probably the most popular super hero power in comic book history. SS is simply one of the better sets that players enjoy - so leave it the hell alone. When I see brutes and tanks running around, I see a pretty good mix of powersets. In fact the only set I don't see getting any play is ice melee, which would certainly seem to be a case where you could buff to bring balance rather than nerf.

In terms of your suggested fixes:

1)The to hit buff in rage is nice, but it's overkill in 99% of the game, and since rage only brings SS's damage up to par with competing sets, you're basically paying for this with the aggrivating end crash and ten seconds of impotence, along with the def bonus that's negated by stacking. I'd gladly give up some of the to hit bonus in exchange eliminating the terrible game mechanic of not being able to do damage for 10 seconds every two minutes.

2)Rages effect on non ss-powers - what's sad about this is that rage needs to use pool powers, with the rage bonuses, to compete on par with other sets damage wise. So to feel this is some sort of overpowered situation doesn't mesh with reality. I don't see SS brutes running around spamming sands of mu, and again, those that incorporate epic pool powers into their chains need to do that just to do damage on par with the competition - without pool powers, SS does subpar damage when compared with other sets.

3)Everyone that claims footstomp is 'overpowered' ignores the fact it's the sets only aoe power, and the fact SS goes without aoe for 30 some levels, depending on at. And aoe is the strength of this set, so if you nerf it, you need to improve the sets aoe or it's going to underperform here as well. But if footstomp is 'overpowered' as you claim, they're going to have to nerf a lot of aoe powers, and sets, to be consistent, because lots of sets give you similar aoe ability, just in different ways and with a variety of powers - SS simply packs all of it's aoe into one power.


But utlimately, I think most people have a problem with ss, and rage in particular, because they confuse different with 'more powerful', and the facts simply don't support the idea that SS is definitively more powerful than competing sets. Bills study showed SS to be mediocre in st damage, and those findings were duplicated in starsmans charts, along with superior aoe scores, yet still not the best in aoe despite the claim that footstomp is overpowered.

It has to be, since SS's powers do less damage than claws. Would rage be to powerful in the claws powerset? Absolutely, because it wasn't designed to go there. Despite claws inferior build up power, claws still outdamages SS by a fairly wide margin.

NAILED IT.

Now does spin need to be nerfed, lol? Not to mention claws has some cones and shockwave too, and badly outdamages SS in single target damage as well. Again, if SS is broken, there are many sets that are hella-broken.

You've kind of missed the point though.


What Bill Z's numbers show is that Double Stacked Follow Up does more for Spin than Double Stacked Rage does for Footstomp.

Also:

1) Double stacked Follow Up is easier to deal with than double stacked rage.

2) Double stacked rage is a huge hindrance to most builds, without MASSIVE recovery tools. (It also, requires a pretty huge amount of recharge, I mocked up a build and at total of 266% recharge, rage was still not perma double stacked - off by about 5s. I'm not completely sure how much rech is required for permanent double stacked followup, so it may be equally as challenging.)



To illustrate.

I have an SS/WP Brute with 4.5 e/s recovery before adding in 2 perf shifter procs (which probably averages out to a total of something like 4.9 e/s, but the perf shifter procs function differently than that).

Even with all of that recovery, I still refuse to double stack rage.

Because it's a freaking hassle.

Because doing zero damage every 60 seconds would be more of a hindrance in actual play than any benefit from an added +80% damage.



Rage and Follow up are not powersets, you can't compare them without looking at the entire set they belong to.


It's also not hard to hit with Follow Up.

Really.


If it's difficult to hit with follow up, then how is every other set that does not have a persistent +To Hit bonus surviving?

Considering I've never had a problem hitting using FM, SM or WM - none of which have Follow Up or Rage - I think we can safely say this is a non-issue.

I guess that is where we differ. It may be my issue as I don't see where this game is particularly balanced against anything, with the possible exception of the overall time it takes the population, or segments of the population to do things.

I can't agree about SS being a hate it set before rage and footstomp. Its really no worse than blast sets before aim and buildup.

I don't agree or disagree with you, but I will point out that AIM and BU come much earlier to Blasters than Rage and Footstomp come to Tankers and Brutes.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I wouldn't say I hated early SS, but it did grind my gears. (This is also from a Tanker's perspective - it may be different for Brutes.)

I only speak for myself, but I missed Footstomp more than Rage. Being unable to damage more than a single target at a time sucks. Having to wait till lvl38 to have one, and 39 to slot it, was very obnoxious. It was also a big waste of endurance. AoEs are incredibly end efficient if you hit multiple targets. (I should note I was leveling her before the new difficulty sliders, which I'm sure would've made it worse.)

An interesting read.

Thanks for the links.




It is worse for Tankers, I tried it out and it was a long arduous road that I will not repeat.

But I really don't enjoy Tankers to begin with, I've disliked that Type of AT/Class/Role in almost every MMO I've played, and I've played a few.

It's not so bad on a Brute, but there is a very distinct and dramatic difference between life before, and life after footstomp.

You can have Rage by 18 and Footstomp at 32, and the Brute will kill stuff faster than the tanker to alleviate the lack of AoE.

At 32 your play changes quite a bit once you've acquire Footstomp and just improves from there.




It's certainly no Claws set though when it comes to leveling, that's for sure.

Slash, Strike, Spin and Follow Up - all by L8.

Claws is cruise control for murder.