One Reason People Get Bored: A History of Instance Palettes
By
Anti_Proton,
Posted on: 2010-04-04 10:56 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
...Yeah, that's kinda what I just said? "I wouldn't mind more missions like that one in the RWZ, that actually calls for a bit of stealth. The one where you have to go around collecting but should avoid patrols."
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Oops - I missed that bit |
Originally Posted by Primal
...Yeah, that's kinda what I just said? "I wouldn't mind more missions like that one in the RWZ, that actually calls for a bit of stealth. The one where you have to go around collecting but should avoid patrols."
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Although, with that new temp invisibility power in GR, that might mean it'll come in handly with some of the GR content
@Golden Girl
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Heh, timers. I still remember doing my first timed mission and being nervous about it, and finishing it with well over an hour to spare.
Dec out.
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while i dont disagree with any of this, one reason i keep banging on the "mmos are actually vary bad games" drum is that all of these would be difficult to do ingame without trivilizing some powersets and making some needed for missions, unbalancing the rewards drastically for some activities versus their risk, and settign up very easily gamed behaviors of the ai to allow some people to breeze through the challenges. I'd add one more issue that bugs me here, we can never do anything. I beat the rikti leader, the rikti come in force the same way before and after. I drop countess crey? still lots of crey around, mmos stink at this too, its just in their nature. I'd love to see more variety to missions, and have even suggested a few, but the problem is, before i post up an idea, i run it by my freind, a rules lawyer with some min/max tendencies, even if he doesn't do it as heavily, and i ask him to exploit my idea...guess how it goes? anything that would be good or clever is hopelessly unbalanced, and getting it to the point where it wouldn't be exploitable pretty much destroys what made it an idea for me in the first place. So yeah, id love to see a proper superhero game, but it sure as hell wont be an mmo that does it.
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Originally Posted by Slashman
There's a reason this is wrong. Not because most MMOs don't boil down to that kind of thing, but because people also know that superheroes are about a lot more than beating things into a pulp.
And while we can't recreate the emotional tension one finds in a good superhero movie like The Dark Knight, heroes(and for that matter villains) are a lot more multidimensional than this game portrays. There are several issues with the way the game is currently setup. 1) The reward system is based on the number of foes you can defeat. This is the first and biggest mistake. And while I agree that hindsight is 20/20, this hasn't even been looked at or tested with a different system. Enemies don't spawn based on your objective(s). They spawn and then your objectives are given additional enemy spawns. If you try to be efficient and complete only your objectives, your reward is so much less, that it's pretty pointless. 2) The only thing we use our powers for is to kill/arrest/destroy things. There is no manipulation of the environment to turn things in your favor, like you'd see heroes do in comics and movies. No way to use your powers/skills to turn enemy weapons against them or throw them into map wide disarray. The thing is that this is exactly the sort of thing that 'hero moments' are made of. Not methodically mowing down spawn after spawn in exactly the same way for hours on end. 3) There are absolutely no good missions that don't depend on you beating someone up. Even missions where you are supposed to go meet so-and-so for info contain a map full of enemies that make it impossible to tell what type of mission you're doing apart from reading the mission text. Again why? Because you can't get rewards apart from mowing down a large and unlikely number of foes in predictable, generic map X. A lot of people come to COX thinking they will find a compelling superhero game. Instead they find a faster paced action MMO with a superhero theme and lots of character customization and a lack of some of the more annoying aspects of other MMOs. For some folks that's fine, as evidenced by the people who have stuck with the game, but for a lot of people, they feel that they have been cheated out of a richer experience. A lot of earlier reviews of COX have said the same thing: There should be more to this game. But that's been pointedly ignored time and again. It's a shame because we have such a great setting and world to work with but use a single aspect of it to the exclusion of other things with a broader appeal. |
I'm disappointed that not once do I get to catch a damsel falling from the sky, but I don't think that would even be possible to code. Some concessions must be made.
But, yeah, they could shake things up a bit more than they do. And maybe they will with GR.
Dec out.
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If you really wanted to do it and approached the problem from gameplay fundamentals, it would be no harder than the alternative, which is to come up with lots of interesting content that *doesn't* do all of those things. Also, some of those difficult to do things already exist**.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
while i dont disagree with any of this, one reason i keep banging on the "mmos are actually vary bad games" drum is that all of these would be difficult to do ingame without trivilizing some powersets and making some needed for missions, unbalancing the rewards drastically for some activities versus their risk, and settign up very easily gamed behaviors of the ai to allow some people to breeze through the challenges.
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** Star Trek Online has a reward system in which most of the rewards are backloaded into mission completions and not combat kills, and at least that part of the system seems to work fine in an MMO (in fact, the kill to completion reward ratio is almost exactly what I would set it to, which is probably dumb luck on their part).
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Just want to drag up the issue of randomly generated maps, because I think that was mentioned. On the whole, I'm against them. The thing is, if they're randomly generated, the differences between one map and the next are not meaningful, and without meaningful differences, it's just as repetitive as having static maps (ask anyone who's done the token grind in AO even once).
Dynamic generation that has some degree of randomness but also factors in rules to make the map engaging (and, perhaps, believable, but even the existing maps aren't really believable) would be better, but that's, of course, a much, much bigger task.
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Originally Posted by Anti_Proton
I wouldn't have expected that answer from you GG. The Devs experimented with the fires in Steel Canyon and then left it at that. So far we all seem to be fine with just blasting away at villains in new and creative ways. But after 6 years is that really all there is to being a hero? Or even being a villain for that matter? It doesn't take much to break us out of the same routine, and like the fires, it is something special when we get the chance.
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In fairness, you can rework plenty of combinations of that in the MA - but generally speaking that combo of missions works because that's what the majority of people want and are happy with.
Most computer games have a legacy of repetition going back to Space Invaders and even beyond. Breaking that mould is a very challenging ask and when it's tried, often the conservative nature (with a small c) of people prevents them liking new stuff.
Many of the people here who decry the state of the game and demand "new" stuff are really asking for more of the same in different clothes.
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Well, hold on there. It's not too late to make changes. They've already made some with the invasions. Sure, it's also punching things in the face, but it gives a sense of immediacy to it that missions don't have. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Well, if we're talking about the biggest mistake, it could be argued that it was to make the fundamental rewarded activity the act of defeating enemies, instead of preventing crimes and disasters. Sometimes the divergence between these two approaches doesn't amount to much - you stop bad men by hitting them until they fall down. Other times, however, it leads to the promotion of behavior that has absolutely nothing to do with the superhero milieu (e.g., setting loiterers on fire) or foils concepts in keeping with the genre (e.g., saving civilians from falling rubble or stopping runaway trains). If I were trying to make a superhero MMO right now, I'd put a lot of thought into how to reward a broader concept of doing good rather than defeating enemies. This is a significantly harder design challenge, it must be noted.
But for this game, that's water so very far under the bridge that it's nearly useless to consider. |
It would be great if they could use invasion tech to have a "Meteor Invasion" -- a giant hunk of rock falling from the sky that you have to pummel before it lands. It could spawn "chunks" that break off the main meteor and fall to the ground, which in turn spawn fires that non-flying heroes would have to put out.
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Thats why my timers on my MA arcs are waaay lower. To give you the real feeling of rushing. Have some stress and blood flowing. I usually do the mission with a strong toon and add a max of 10-15 min. |
Originally Posted by Decorum
Heh, timers. I still remember doing my first timed mission and being nervous about it, and finishing it with well over an hour to spare.
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Perhaps you missed the whole 'tactical rpg' thing. And I'm not saying that we should use that control scheme for COX. Where in the heck did you get that idea? I'm talking about the expereince of the game as a whole. Its got a 90 metacritic score and was very popular.|
Originally Posted by Westley
I tried Freedom Force and couldn't stand it.
It was like someone wanted to make Command and Conquer, or Dungeon Siege, but with superheroes. No thanks, I don't want to select one character, right click the enemy, choose an attack, THEN my character goes over to the enemy, THEN he wacks the enemy. |
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| If I wanted to do that... I'd go play Dungeon Siege again and imagine that it's taking place in a city. |
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| I just can't stand that style of play for anything but military strategy games. It just doesn't feel right to me. |
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Sure, Freedom Force also benefited from having a preset cast of characters. The game's designers knew it would be not just about some superhero fighting Nuclear Winter, the Soviet Snowstorm, but about Minute Man fighting him. This contributes to the player's sense of "immersion" as much as or more than the fact that the heroes can throw barrels or knock down walls. It's an actual story with an identifable protagonist.|
Originally Posted by Slashman
My point is that for those of us who can actually 'stand' to play a tactical RPG, it very much nailed the look and feel of a superhero game.
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This doesn't work as well in an MMO. Any good RPG game master knows that the most important characters in the story are the protagonists, the players' characters. An MMO needs to obey that same dictum, but the writers of MMO stories need to deal with knowing next to nothing about their protagonists. (Witness all the wailing and gnashing of teeth when a mission dictates even the smallest thing about how our characters act or feel.) It's possible to get the same feel from a well-written single player game in an MMO, but it's much, much, much harder. (Incidentally, using a preset group of characters makes visual design and animation much more predictable, which I think also makes things like throwing barrels easier to program.)
This isn't even considering the importance of setting and tone. Another reason Freedom Force works is that it isn't just a superhero game; it's an animated '60's superhero comic. That makes it easy for the writer to create characters that instantaneously resonate with the audience's expectations (impetuous ex-gang member, tragic guy imprisoned in armor, super-smart alien, communist agent, etc.). This can be and has been done to some extent in City of Heroes, but it's prompted little but hostility from the player base; I see routine complaints that "Nemesis is too cartoonish because cackling evil masterminds are dumb" and the like. For the most part, though, City of Heroes doesn't stick to any single tone, theme, or comic book influence. Instead, we fight magical cults, comical cyberpunks, evil corporate suit-guys, and pseudo-Napoleonic armies, all in the same game. This adds some nice variety, but it also makes it difficult for the game's writers and designers to impose the unified vision of setting and tone that makes a world really come alive.
So, in conclusion, I enjoyed Freedom Force, but I think people tend to credit too much of its success to things like destructible environments and throwable objects and not enough to the fact that it's a single player game with a fairly coherent story and look.
Oh, and I wouldn't mind more maps, more variety in objectives, and more stuff to do outdoors, but if the comparatively limited number of them that exist haven't made me quit by now, they probably won't in the future, either. For whatever it's worth, comments the devs made at PAX East suggest that some of the new, upcoming things in Going Rogue will place a renewed emphasis on having to do things in the outdoor game world. Zone events were specifically mentioned.
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For what it's worth, I was telling two of my coworkers, both of whom played CoH previously, about Going Rogue. The first thing that was said, "Is it going to use the same four office and warehouse maps?" 
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I wonder if it would work to do something like that, only with something like a new class of mob, kind of like an AV, but not quite as tough, something you can stop either by damage (difficult) or by applying enough holds/stuns/etc. It'd definitely have a heroic feel, like trying to stop Doomsday or Black Adam.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Well, hold on there. It's not too late to make changes. They've already made some with the invasions. Sure, it's also punching things in the face, but it gives a sense of immediacy to it that missions don't have.
It would be great if they could use invasion tech to have a "Meteor Invasion" -- a giant hunk of rock falling from the sky that you have to pummel before it lands. It could spawn "chunks" that break off the main meteor and fall to the ground, which in turn spawn fires that non-flying heroes would have to put out. |
I like the idea of being able to achieve a goal by use of control powers. If there were enough of that in the game, maybe Containment wouldn't have been necessary.
I wouldn't want to get rid of the instanced missions we do have, though. Also, I like the way the public events here are optional and cooperative.
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There is a difference to me between playing in an instanced map and doing a mission/quest in a zone map that makes the zone map seem less repetitive. In the case of CoH it may be that there are so few zone missions that they retain some sense of novelty. You know that mission in Sharkhead to defeat 10 Scrapyarders in The Pit? Before the XP curve was smoothed, you often faced off against enemies that were +2 or +3 when doing the mission. You'd have to move about The Pit carefully because it was, for your character, a literal death trap. I *love* that mission, even though most seem to hate it. You get to explore an actual environment, you get to choose your targets and apply a little bit of tactics instead of walking into an area where every enemy placement has long-since been memorized (and yes, I know most zone spawns have fixed locations, as well). You can use the environment to your advantage -- knock a pesky demolitionist off a ledge to get him out of your hair for awhile. If one group is too tough, you can move on and try another (hospital visit optional).
Compare that to a typical instanced mission where it plays out the same way every time because it *is* the same every time -- same layout (within a set of minor variations), same spawn placement, predictable level range, etc.
I'm also one of the nuts who enjoys the mission in Warburg to launch the rocket.
If we could get more dynamic spawns in instanced missions (have them moving more, not just standing in clumps, add more variety to the groupings) and more missions that took place in zones (hopefully with the thought of the PvP zone missions, not necessarily more "Defeat X") that would go a long way toward reducing the potential monotony of missions overall.
New maps with more logical layouts would also be a huge plus for me. Yeah, you get used to anything after awhile, but the game really does hurt for variety as a whole when the vast amount of player time is spent in slight variations of only a half dozen or so locations (warehouse, sewer, office, cave, lab). I think the devs will continue to tweak the existing game and do more with GR since it's essentially a new palette for them, but overall we're probably not going to see much change in terms of instanced missions because the game is what it is.
Apparently, the new Praetorian lab tile set won't have a lot of hallways, so that might mean it's more like a lot of rooms beside rach other.
@Golden Girl
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And even doing your own bit to add characterization to the missions doesn't help much, because there are so few missions where you can do something like that. For example, with the mission to unlock Mark IV as a store, your goal is to go into a Crey facility and insert a virus into a Crey computer to delete all records of Mark IV's existence. Every time I've done it, I treat it as a challenge to slip in and get to the computer without drawing aggro from any of the mobs in the mission, because in character deleting Mark IV's data from the computer is more effective if it's just gone; if I draw aggro, Crey knows that someone was infiltrating the facility, and will run security checks, and might turn up some data that will lead them back to Mark IV. If I do it right, I get a lot less XP; that's my tradeoff for the satisfaction of meeting a self-imposed challenge.
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Originally Posted by Slashman
3) There are absolutely no good missions that don't depend on you beating someone up. Even missions where you are supposed to go meet so-and-so for info contain a map full of enemies that make it impossible to tell what type of mission you're doing apart from reading the mission text. Again why? Because you can't get rewards apart from mowing down a large and unlikely number of foes in predictable, generic map X.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
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Stalkers. Illusion Controllers. Any character with Invisibility from the Stealth pool. Sail in unnoticed, grab the glowie, and click the blue button to exit the mission. Lather, rinse, repeat. Sure, you're only getting the basic mission-completion bonus, but at a maximum of what, two minutes per mission, you can do a lot of missions in an hour. You're getting a pile of reward for zero risk; that's why all the glowie-hunt missions from the police radio and newspaper make you clear the end room (although, as fallout from this, there is little that makes you feel sillier than having the random glowie placement put it 50 feet inside the mission door where you can get it without even seeing a hostile mob, and then still having to make your way to the end room to defeat the boss).
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Originally Posted by Primal
I wouldn't mind more missions like that one in the RWZ, that actually calls for a bit of stealth. The one where you have to go around collecting but should avoid patrols. Of course, as always, I've seen plenty of complaints about it because you're dissuaded from fighting. Sometimes though it just makes sense to, for a different example, get to the glowing PC, upload the virus, and then get out without anyone knowing you were there. Nope, you have to clear the room too no matter what. It's a little silly.
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"But in our enthusiasm, we could not resist a radical overhaul of the system, in which all of its major weaknesses have been exposed, analyzed, and replaced with new weaknesses."
-- Bruce Leverett, Register Allocation in Optimizing Compilers
Technically, this being Rikti, it's still not zero-risk for people with stealth: Rikti Drones are kind of annoying like that.
One of the reasons that mission is problematic in my viewpoint is that there is no real way, without prior knowledge, to know that you'll need stealth. Or, and I've accomplished the mission like this on my non-stealth characters, using a travel power to sort of exploit the NPC AI: they might notice you, but they won't actually attack for a few seconds.
A temporary stealth power would be very useful for that mission, and still keep the idea of not attacking the critters. I don't know why one is not offered (or at least hasn't been offered the last time I did the mission). After all, there's a mission villainside which sends you into St. Martial to deliver something when you're below that level, but gives you a Phase Shift temp power to accomplish that task.
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Is there an echo in here?|
Originally Posted by Golden Girl
Apprently, the new Praetorian lab tile set won't have a lot of hallways, so that might mean it's more like a lot of rooms beside rach other.
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Echo!
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Hmm... How odd.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You know, I hear this from time to time, and it's the sort of thing that makes me want to punch people. This overfocusing on one specific aspect of the game just gets under my skin. When I hate something (and it takes quite a bit for me to HATE it), I have a whole laundry list of things to hate bout it. But just that one thing? You'd think the entire game were nothing BUT looking at the inside of an instance, ignoring the fact that there are enemies in it, that you can make your own characters with your own look and your own power selection. No. None of that matters. I want to look at different interiors. Ugh...|
Originally Posted by Blue_Wave
For what it's worth, I was telling two of my coworkers, both of whom played CoH previously, about Going Rogue. The first thing that was said, "Is it going to use the same four office and warehouse maps?"
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I'm reminded of my reaction to Battlefield Bad Company 2, after being a long-time player of Battlefield 2142. It goes along the lines of...
-Wait, you can't go prone? Why did they do that?
-I don't know, it kind of makes it hard to hide behind cover.
-Ugh... So I hear there are no squad leaders and commanders?
-Well, no, but any member of a squad can give orders, you can spawn at each squad member and anyone can do commander activities via a few different systems.
-But it kills the order and hierarcy! So I hear bullets drop and have travel time?
-Yeah, they say it's more realistic that way.
-The same people who said "Oh, and you can't crouch. Get over it, it's a game!" Idiots. Doesn't that make it hard to hit things?
-Kind of.
-Why's the UAV so damn ugly to pilot?
-Well, it can kind of shoot rockets, so...
-Hold on! Why does my Assault kit not have a medkit? And where's my defibrilator?
-Oh, that. See, the Assault/Medic is a 2142 thing. Remember, in Battlefield 2, the Medic was a separate kit. Now the Support kit is the medic and the Assault kit has the ammo box.
-That's... Really bad design. Why's everything always so foggy, smoky and hard to see?
-Well, see, you can knock down almost all standing structures, and it'd suck to have a wide open field of unlimited visibility.
-Whatever. Isn't the destructible terrain engine terrible? I was playing Red Faction 2 and...
-This isn't Red Faction 2, and yeah, it's kind of bad.
-And all the weapons are realistic?
-Kind of. They at least resemble real designs as far as I know about weapons.
-So, no spawn beacons, no forcefields, no scanner devices, no NetBat helmets, no cloaking device, no rifle rockets, no RDX shotgun...
-Well, anything you spot shows up on everybody's HUD.
-It's not quite the same, now, is it?
And that's just off the top of my head. Any number of things I could have taken, but it's just one thing after another. I can't recall any single game that I could point to one thing and say "THIS is the reason why it sucks." Quite simply, I don't believe any one game, unless it's an utter disaster, can suck because any one, single thing. Not even abominations like Lineage II, my apologies to PlayNC.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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See, what you describe as liking is the very epitome of everything I hate about the game, and the central reason why people do missions over outdoor content. Nothing (including disconnects, power outage, lag deaths and basically anything up to character loss) sucks worse than being given a mission in an area of a zone where everything is +2 to you, and Sharkhead has two of those - the Scrapyarder hunt in The Pits (sic), and the CoT hunt in Moth Cemetery, both of which can be received more than two levels before you have any business going in each area if you're not careful. Aside from being a sucker trap, these missions are as close as I've come to punching my PC peripherals in City of Heroes.|
Originally Posted by Creole Ned
There is a difference to me between playing in an instanced map and doing a mission/quest in a zone map that makes the zone map seem less repetitive. In the case of CoH it may be that there are so few zone missions that they retain some sense of novelty. You know that mission in Sharkhead to defeat 10 Scrapyarders in The Pit? Before the XP curve was smoothed, you often faced off against enemies that were +2 or +3 when doing the mission. You'd have to move about The Pit carefully because it was, for your character, a literal death trap. I *love* that mission, even though most seem to hate it. You get to explore an actual environment, you get to choose your targets and apply a little bit of tactics instead of walking into an area where every enemy placement has long-since been memorized (and yes, I know most zone spawns have fixed locations, as well). You can use the environment to your advantage -- knock a pesky demolitionist off a ledge to get him out of your hair for awhile. If one group is too tough, you can move on and try another (hospital visit optional).
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Outdoor content is a gigantic waste of time, for the simple fact that finding anything you CAN do outdoors is seemingly deliberately designed to waste your time. I'm of a specific level, and ideally I'd like to fight enemies of my level. Outdoor spawns being what they are, 90% of the time I'll meet enemies either far below my level or far above it. I'll be given a Family hunt in Independence Port, only to realise that the areas they spawn in are either three levels below me or three levels above me. The areas of town that ARE my level spawn only Tsoo and 5th/Council. And being that Independence Port is bigger than Jack Emmert's head, I don't feel like dragging my *** all over creation just to possibly find one small spawn of three minions that may be somewhat close to my level, amid a see of enemies I don't need to hunt, possibly getting killed by something I accidentally ran into on the way.
Finding enemies my level is a constant problem with Hunt missions. Occasionally, finding enemies PERIOD is problematic, such as the various incarnations of "Hunt 50 Carnies in Peregrine Island," the mission that needs to die in a fire and whoever designed it to be flogged for their sins. And even just doing my own thing and walking around on the streets instead of skipping everything to the mission is not an option. When I'm level 43 and given a mission in Kings Row, I'm not going to fight anything along the way. It's pointless AND boring. At one point I had the good fortune to be about the right level to walk overland from mainland Nerva to Primeva without flying or getting my feet wet (which basically meant walking through Agincourt), but even though I was a couple of levels above everything there, I still had a hard time, because outdoor spawns are bigger and harder than indoor ones.
I'll take instanced missions any time, any day, because they allow me to pick my difficulty and play the game my way. The less random the difficulty curve is, the less likely I am to find enemies I don't want to fight, the less I have to travel around before I find stuff to shoot, the better the game is. If the overworld scaled to my level and difficulty settings, I might be more inclined to do stuff in it, but as it has to account for all the people who COULD be in the zone, but really aren't, this isn't going to happen. And the game is all the worse for it.
I'll take some more instanced maps now, please.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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So very true, particularly the mention of the customization available in CoH. Especially considering the guy that first said it had originally played WoW before coming to CoH. On a positive note if GR does have some new maps, I believe these players will return.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
You know, I hear this from time to time, and it's the sort of thing that makes me want to punch people. This overfocusing on one specific aspect of the game just gets under my skin. When I hate something (and it takes quite a bit for me to HATE it), I have a whole laundry list of things to hate bout it. But just that one thing? You'd think the entire game were nothing BUT looking at the inside of an instance, ignoring the fact that there are enemies in it, that you can make your own characters with your own look and your own power selection. No. None of that matters. I want to look at different interiors. Ugh...
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Sam, you seem to approach the game as a kind of 'comfort food'. I like a little more variety, so I'm willing to try something spicy, even if it means it may not agree with me.
To each his own.
@Golden Girl
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