One Reason People Get Bored: A History of Instance Palettes


Anti_Proton

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
But isn't that the basic way all MMOs work?
Doesn't make it any less boring.

"I wish the gas pedal on my Kia were on the left."
"Aren't all car models that way?"
"Yeah, but this is what I drive, and that doesn't make me wish it any less."

You haven't addressed the concern. Do you work in marketing?


Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
But isn't that the basic way all MMOs work?

I wouldn't have expected that answer from you GG. The Devs experimented with the fires in Steel Canyon and then left it at that. So far we all seem to be fine with just blasting away at villains in new and creative ways. But after 6 years is that really all there is to being a hero? Or even being a villain for that matter? It doesn't take much to break us out of the same routine, and like the fires, it is something special when we get the chance.


"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."

 

Posted

I think if we had more reasons to go OUTSIDE of the instances, and play in the game world... we wouldn't get so bored with the instances themselves. The game world is a great and wonderful place to play in, we just need more reasons to play in it.

I think they swung the pendulum just a LITTLE too far with promoting so many instances.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
I think if we had more reasons to go OUTSIDE of the instances, and play in the game world... we wouldn't get so bored with the instances themselves. The game world is a great and wonderful place to play in, we just need more reasons to play in it.

I think they swung the pendulum just a LITTLE too far with promoting so many instances.
Definitely. I solo street sweep for variety. I miss the old teams sweeping through Perez Park.


total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison View Post
Doesn't make it any less boring.

"I wish the gas pedal on my Kia were on the left."
"Aren't all car models that way?"
"Yeah, but this is what I drive, and that doesn't make me wish it any less."

You haven't addressed the concern. Do you work in marketing?
I'm at college - and I'm not studying marketing


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anti_Proton View Post
I wouldn't have expected that answer from you GG.
Why not? Isn't it correct? Defeating, collecting, protecting and destroying are like the basics for MMO missions, aren't they?
The Steel Canyon fires are still just a defeat task - so I think it's better to ask what ways they could develop the current mission types, rather than try and work out totally new mision types that didn't involve defeating, collecting, protecting or destroying.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

This is the biggest fault with COH and has been since launch. It's the reason subscriptions aren't as high as they should be in the era of the superhero movie.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
I think if we had more reasons to go OUTSIDE of the instances, and play in the game world... we wouldn't get so bored with the instances themselves. The game world is a great and wonderful place to play in, we just need more reasons to play in it.
I've been saying this for years.

I'm no fan of WoW-style 'camp the spawn and try to gank that drop before the other vultures get it' gameplay, but there's gotta be a happy medium between that and CoH's "all instance, all the time!" approach.

Most zones are cool enough to deserve better than being treated like a glorified lobby for mission doors.


The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.

My City Was Gone

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanatos View Post
This is the biggest fault with COH and has been since launch. It's the reason subscriptions aren't as high as they should be in the era of the superhero movie.
I don't know if I'd agree that there aren't many other reasons that contribute. It is however one of the biggest complaints I read about us on other sites or reviews, so it's definitely been a highly visible negative, which has kept some customers away.


 

Posted

Well, if we're talking about the biggest mistake, it could be argued that it was to make the fundamental rewarded activity the act of defeating enemies, instead of preventing crimes and disasters. Sometimes the divergence between these two approaches doesn't amount to much - you stop bad men by hitting them until they fall down. Other times, however, it leads to the promotion of behavior that has absolutely nothing to do with the superhero milieu (e.g., setting loiterers on fire) or foils concepts in keeping with the genre (e.g., saving civilians from falling rubble or stopping runaway trains). If I were trying to make a superhero MMO right now, I'd put a lot of thought into how to reward a broader concept of doing good rather than defeating enemies. This is a significantly harder design challenge, it must be noted.

But for this game, that's water so very far under the bridge that it's nearly useless to consider.


@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westley View Post
I think if we had more reasons to go OUTSIDE of the instances, and play in the game world... we wouldn't get so bored with the instances themselves. The game world is a great and wonderful place to play in, we just need more reasons to play in it.

I think they swung the pendulum just a LITTLE too far with promoting so many instances.

It would make it easier to find a team too. Not that I myself have a hard time, but we've all seen the "WAAAAAHH I CAN'T FIND A TEAM ON MY FIRST LOGIN EVAR I QUIT BACK TO WOW!!!!!" posts. Know what I mean?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nethergoat View Post
I've been saying this for years.

I'm no fan of WoW-style 'camp the spawn and try to gank that drop before the other vultures get it' gameplay, but there's gotta be a happy medium between that and CoH's "all instance, all the time!" approach.

Most zones are cool enough to deserve better than being treated like a glorified lobby for mission doors.
Expanded and more complex zone events, with one for each zone would be a very good start, I think.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
Well, if we're talking about the biggest mistake, it could be argued that it was to make the fundamental rewarded activity the act of defeating enemies, instead of preventing crimes and disasters. Sometimes the divergence between these two approaches doesn't amount to much - you stop bad men by hitting them until they fall down. Other times, however, it leads to the promotion of behavior that has absolutely nothing to do with the superhero milieu (e.g., setting loiterers on fire) or foils concepts in keeping with the genre (e.g., saving civilians from falling rubble or stopping runaway trains). If I were trying to make a superhero MMO right now, I'd put a lot of thought into how to reward a broader concept of doing good rather than defeating enemies. This is a significantly harder design challenge, it must be noted.

But for this game, that's water so very far under the bridge that it's nearly useless to consider.
Well, there are ways to use the current mechanics, but in creative ways - for example, to rescue people trapped under rubble, they'd just need to make the rubble a destructable object, and set it up like a hostage spawn - break the bits of rubble, and the trapped person is free.
It the same mechanic as a hostage rescue, but the visual part makes it seem new.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

I too agree that the missions styles get a very repetitive. Maybe if they could masup missions, in random combination, so in-mission events like fires, betrayals and ambushes were always a surprise, even if you had played that mission before.
For instance, you get the standard Rescue Leroy Jenkins mission. As you're leading Leroy out, BOOM. The way out is blocked by a fire. All fire extinguishers in the area now become glowies that give you the hose backpack, as per the Hellion event, so you can fight the fire and escape. And of course, as you fight the fire, the villains attack, feed the fire, etc.

Another example- your mission is to recover Chemical X. When clicking on the glowie, there's a % chance it will confuse 1 teammate for the duration of the mission. The confused teammate can now attack his/her own team and try to escape. His/her teammates, conversely, must try and defeat them. If the confused teammate escapes, they get the collective mission bonus xp (that's 7 x mission complete, if you evade or defeat 7 teammates.) Attach some badges to it, to really motivate people, and it becomes a fun suprise. It's random, so you can't really farm it, either. They could be cured after the mission is complete (med evac, fresh air and sunshine, whatever.)
Maybe later in the arc, a CLONE of that character appears as the final boss fight.

As someone mentioned about knowing every spawn on every map, a lack of surprises leads to boredom. Randomless, chance, surprise, that makes the game more exciting and challenging.


Stay Gold, Paragon. Stay Gold.
Nolite te bastardes carborundorum.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by EU_Damz View Post
Number 1 reason why i get bored?

I know the exact location of each spawn/ambush on most of the maps!
This... and once you have done everything 10+ times, doing it again just tastes like already chewed bubblegum.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Perfect_Pain View Post
This... and once you have done everything 10+ times, doing it again just tastes like already chewed bubblegum.
Even demon farms?


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
Why not? Isn't it correct? Defeating, collecting, protecting and destroying are like the basics for MMO missions, aren't they?
The Steel Canyon fires are still just a defeat task - so I think it's better to ask what ways they could develop the current mission types, rather than try and work out totally new mision types that didn't involve defeating, collecting, protecting or destroying.
There's a reason this is wrong. Not because most MMOs don't boil down to that kind of thing, but because people also know that superheroes are about a lot more than beating things into a pulp.

And while we can't recreate the emotional tension one finds in a good superhero movie like The Dark Knight, heroes(and for that matter villains) are a lot more multidimensional than this game portrays.

There are several issues with the way the game is currently setup.

1) The reward system is based on the number of foes you can defeat. This is the first and biggest mistake. And while I agree that hindsight is 20/20, this hasn't even been looked at or tested with a different system. Enemies don't spawn based on your objective(s). They spawn and then your objectives are given additional enemy spawns. If you try to be efficient and complete only your objectives, your reward is so much less, that it's pretty pointless.

2) The only thing we use our powers for is to kill/arrest/destroy things. There is no manipulation of the environment to turn things in your favor, like you'd see heroes do in comics and movies. No way to use your powers/skills to turn enemy weapons against them or throw them into map wide disarray. The thing is that this is exactly the sort of thing that 'hero moments' are made of. Not methodically mowing down spawn after spawn in exactly the same way for hours on end.

3) There are absolutely no good missions that don't depend on you beating someone up. Even missions where you are supposed to go meet so-and-so for info contain a map full of enemies that make it impossible to tell what type of mission you're doing apart from reading the mission text. Again why? Because you can't get rewards apart from mowing down a large and unlikely number of foes in predictable, generic map X.

A lot of people come to COX thinking they will find a compelling superhero game. Instead they find a faster paced action MMO with a superhero theme and lots of character customization and a lack of some of the more annoying aspects of other MMOs. For some folks that's fine, as evidenced by the people who have stuck with the game, but for a lot of people, they feel that they have been cheated out of a richer experience. A lot of earlier reviews of COX have said the same thing: There should be more to this game. But that's been pointedly ignored time and again.

It's a shame because we have such a great setting and world to work with but use a single aspect of it to the exclusion of other things with a broader appeal.


 

Posted

Well said Slash.

Now this is how you constructively criticize a game, as opposed to what most other people do when they try to dis CoH.

The only thing you're missing are a few suggestions to improve the areas you note as lacking.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan View Post
Well, if we're talking about the biggest mistake, it could be argued that it was to make the fundamental rewarded activity the act of defeating enemies, instead of preventing crimes and disasters.
Its a bit of a side effect of a larger design error**, but basically this is the one error that was easily avoidable (knowing nothing but what the devs knew back in either alpha or beta, it should have been obvious not to do this), easily correctable right up to launch (the reward system was not tightly coupled to the rest of the game design and could have been changed without disrupting the rest of the game), and has had the largest negative impact on the game that persists to this day.


** Which was not deciding what the game was actually about - for example from the very beginning the devs seem to believe that running instanced mission content was the "core" part of gameplay, yet the game launched with practically zero rewards for doing so, and relatively massive rewards for avoiding it entirely. They also seemed to realize that players wanted large-scale combat but giving that experience to them would unbalance the reward system they created for combat (there was also technical issues, but that's not relevant here: in fact those technical limitations impose a soft-cap on such behavior anyway). Which has an ironically obvious solution to anyone *except* a circa 2004 MMO designer. This is actually the moment when the "three minions" design rule caused its real damage: the balancing done around that rule after launch was and is a minor point by comparison.


[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightphall View Post
Why is it that I feel that the same old tilesets never bothered me? Perhaps I'm just hard to bore?
In my case, it's because I'm so familiar with the tilesets that I know where the spawns are. Which means I know when to just rush along, and when to be careful about something around the corner. This lets me gain the rewards for defeating enemies more efficiently; it's not something that I approve of actively, but since I've got the knowledge, might as well use it.

And I know that new tilesets would get old soon enough too, so I don't ask for much.

The tilesets bore me, but they don't bother me per se. I'd be happy to see some new ones, but there's always the possibility of getting another layer cake cave room or Oranbega.


Current main:
Schrodinger's Gun, Dual Pistols/Mental Blaster, Virtue

Avatar: Becky Miyamoto from Pani Poni Dash. Roulette roulette~

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightphall View Post
Why is it that I feel that the same old tilesets never bothered me? Perhaps I'm just hard to bore?
Perhaps you are. And really, I guess there's nothing wrong with that. You probably get an entirely different kind of satisfaction from the maps and tilesets we have now. Or you probably just ignore them. Fine either way.

I will say that one of the things I have observed about game design(and so have most of the more successful developers), is that a good game is about creating a compelling experience.

Anyone who hasn't yet should pick up a copy of Freedom Force. It's like $5 on Steam and IMO is the template by which superhero games should be made. I find it amusing that Statesman would often reference this game when talking about superhero games but actually based so little of COX on it.

The game just works and flows well. It isn't overly complex...it's a tactical RPG at it's heart(somewhat akin to Dragon Age in combat execution). It's set in the 60s and has all the cheesy, overdramatized dialogue you'd expect from superheroes and villains of that era. But it is a really fun game.

Super powers work like you'd expect them to work. The environment is destructible and more importantly usable by both your heroes and their enemies. There isn't a huge variety of tilesets(it's set in the city), but what is there suits the look and feel of the game perfectly. Has all our travel powers too(flight, superspeed, teleportation, superjump and even tunneling).

In short, Irrational Games made a superhero game that captured what the average person associates with superheroes the most: Secret Identities, Cool Super Powers, Cool Origin Stories(cheesy but still cool), Rampant Destruction of Public Property, Real Civilian Reaction to Superheroes(i.e. screaming and running when someone teleports onto a crowded street), the ability to beat people with uprooted trees and lamp posts(yes...that's important ), and over-the-top villains that you love to hate and beat on.

They created a superhero experience. Which is really what people who try this game expect. Sure, people stay in spite of that because we are better than other MMOs in some very compelling ways, but in a lot of ways COX is a bait and switch. Promising a superhero experience, but delivering an MMO experience with superhero themes thrown in.


 

Posted

I tried Freedom Force and couldn't stand it.

It was like someone wanted to make Command and Conquer, or Dungeon Siege, but with superheroes. No thanks, I don't want to select one character, right click the enemy, choose an attack, THEN my character goes over to the enemy, THEN he wacks the enemy.

If I wanted to do that... I'd go play Dungeon Siege again and imagine that it's taking place in a city.

I just can't stand that style of play for anything but military strategy games. It just doesn't feel right to me.


 

Posted

I think GR will add some interetsing twists on the current mission types we have.
For example, there's a lot of scope for stealth type missions, especially for Resistance players.


@Golden Girl

City of Heroes comics and artwork

 

Posted

I am another one that's very hard to bore, at least as far as visuals go. I enjoy warehouses and offices the most of all. Granted I can't stand the blue caves, but not because they're boring.

Obviously I'm not opposed to new maps/tilesets/palettes. And frankly I wish some of the current maps got used just a teensy bit more, there are some great ones and you MIGHT see them once or twice. Obviously YMMV on this subject, but what I'm thinking of specifically:

1) Arachnos lab map, except it's the one with the gigantic catwalk-filled area. Not so great for a defeat-all perhaps, but as a side room? Fantastic.

2) The huge outdoor map that's in a rusty factory area, with a central tower, Boss/objective at the top. I simply adore that map, makes me feel like I'm storming a castle. Seen it like twice ever.

I wouldn't mind more missions like that one in the RWZ, that actually calls for a bit of stealth. The one where you have to go around collecting but should avoid patrols. Of course, as always, I've seen plenty of complaints about it because you're dissuaded from fighting. Sometimes though it just makes sense to, for a different example, get to the glowing PC, upload the virus, and then get out without anyone knowing you were there. Nope, you have to clear the room too no matter what. It's a little silly.