Catastrophic Defense Failure: thinking out loud
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-30 08:14 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
General: My apologies for giving the unsupported strawman in the OP that "debuffable defense is useless." Someone mentioned a couple of posts in the 900's from That Other Thread. I honestly lost track of who said what. I know there were arguments that were worth having, and people had valid points on the other side, and I just missed them.
Psiphon: You're not seeing defense debuff with Nemesis, I'm pretty sure. You're seeing Vengeance (+ToHit, I think, I don't know exactly how the Nem version works) and probably lots of it. My rule of thumb was "two Vengeances pretty much neutralizes a Force Field defender. " So that suggests around 10-20% To Hit bonus. Defense Debuff Resistance wouldn't do a thing against that. Does that match the experience of the SR scrappers here? Does nailing two Nem Lieutenants turn you into an instasquishy?
StrykerX: I wasn't touching squishies in my analysis, it is true. There's a lot of active defense on any given squishie- and it varies a lot from squishie to squishie. Are we talking a Fire/En blaster? Sonic/Rad defender? Controller? Ice/ice blaster, where any given debuff will wear off long before the next attack? Herdicaning storm? I wouldn't even know where to begin the calculation.
Cyber_naut: I don't have a level 50 SR build. I only have one build that's particularly high-end. I'm working with what I got.
Umbral: Right. Dark Regen. There are certain powers I will never correctly name without doing the damn research. I was trying to give a "generic solution" with relatively anti-player approximations (1.6 is slightly better accuracy than most enemies, I think- a normal +2 boss should be at 1.56) ; every attack is -Defense; one 50% heal per fight seemed low-to-reasonable) lest I get dragged into details. Dark Armor and Invuln are an absolute swamp of special cases (how many enemies are minions? how many are stunned? how many guys will break away and fight at range instead of feeding Invincibility?) I don't actually play Fire Armor so I'd probably make some extra-stupid build assumptions.
If you want to try and make specific builds, put up against specific enemies, you can do that. Maybe I'm too lazy to make an argument that gives specific, testable, useful results. (As far as 8% "standard debuff" for Cimerrorans- I don't know. I had the idea that 7.5% was standard, based on what players get and what I vaguely remember from Council attacks.)
Dechs (and Deus Otiosus ): Are you perhaps hammering on Aegis (about 4.5% En/N per set) to get that level of E/N? 20% from powers, +3% from Steadfast - you have four resist powers ANYWAY... I'm trying to stay away from specific build discussions but it's like yummy candy for me.
Deus O, specifically:
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I may not have clarified sufficiently. |
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1. Fixing BoTZ has mostly to do with typed defenses and therefore little to do with resistance sets - most of whom build for Typed defenses, not positionals. 2. Neither SR nor Shields "gives up half their character" for mitigation. Those secondaries are dedicated to the single best source of mitigation in the game and also get DDR to go along with it. 3. The biggest threat to Defense sets is not resistance sets that build for Defense. The biggest threat is Shields. |
*/SR has taken between 7 and 9 powers, typically, and chosen SR instead of something like, say, Dark or Fire or Regen. They have, by choosing one powerset, given up the potential of another one.
To take an extreme example, if you play SR instead of Dark EndBar, you are giving up a damage aura, a minion-stunning aura, an enormous heal every few seconds, fear resistance, psi resistance, end drain resistance, stealth without a power pool. SR has features of its own-three LoTGs worth of recharge built right in, for instance, the ability to see your own costume, knockback protection- but it's a choice you make. Get SR or get something else.
But MOST of what you get for going SR scrapper is Defense, lots of it, that cannot be taken away. Easy softcaps. Debuff resistance.
If the Defense of other players, who got a different toolbox, is sufficient... you've been kinda robbed.
I'm picking nearly the worst case for farmer armor there is. As has been mentioned, ALL the guys in the example fight debuff defense. And they're hitting unusually well. And there's still a 50% chance that eight of them are going to miss you entirely with the alpha.
And, as Arcanaville mentioned:
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| The notion that something that is extraordinarily powerful in one situation is perfectly fine if there exists another one where its not is simply wrong on its face |
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Wow. Myriad's post wasn't up there when I started my previous post. I spent too long writing...
Myriad- the worst case is not "debuffed to 0% defense." You can be debuffed to NEGATIVE defense, which means they can be capped and hit you flat out 95% of the time. That's the joy of the cascading defense failure( in my example, you'd probably have 15 stacked Defense Debuffs on you till you died.)
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This.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Any defense without nearly maxed debuff resistance will sometimes fail catastrophically. I agree with that. But the question should be asked: how often does that happen, and how fast?
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It tends to happen pretty often and pretty fast, given how common def debuff ingame are (Malta, Council, Longbow, Arachnos, Carnies, Praetorians, etc. And that's just the level 50 game)
In my own experience, having ranged toons with high ranged/AoE defense is useful to solo most AVs and pretty much all GMs, but the moment you fight those key AVs (such as Positron and Antimatter) it pretty much becomes a DPS race: I have to kill you before one of your attacks touches me.
It's especially bad considering Positron has [Overcharge] (+def +hp godmode), and he's not the only defense-debuffing AV with a godmode (Mynx, Bobcat, Valkyrie and Silver Mantis, just to name a few)
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Yep, I noticed my fail and removed a part of that post ... obviously not enough. |
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Wow. Myriad's post wasn't up there when I started my previous post. I spent too long writing...
Myriad- the worst case is not "debuffed to 0% defense." You can be debuffed to NEGATIVE defense, which means they can be capped and hit you flat out 95% of the time. That's the joy of the cascading defense failure( in my example, you'd probably have 15 stacked Defense Debuffs on you till you died.) |
I reworked the rest, though:
I'll try to go through the iterations with even more detail.
The basic question is how often do we get hit at which probabilities. This is solved with a binominal distribution.
With a hit probability of p, miss probability of q = 1-p, k hits and n tries the probability of k hits with n tries is
P(k) = binominal coefficient of n and k * p^k * q^(n-k)
The binominal coefficient of n and k is equal to n!/(k!*(n-k)! for n > or = k.
So our formula is
P(k) = (n!/(k!*(n-k)!) * p^k * q^(n-k)
With n = 8, p = 0.05 * 1.6 = 0.08, q = 1 p = 0.92 we have
P(1) = (40320/(1*5040)) * 0.08 * 0.558 = 0.357
P(2) = (40320/(2*720)) * 0.0064 * 0.606 = 0.108
P(3) = (40320/(6*120)) * 0.000512 * 0.659 = 0.019
So it's a 35.7% chance of hitting with one attack and a 10.8% chance that two attacks go through with a 51.3% chance of not hitting at all.
We have 8 attacks for D damage each and the contestants have 6D=100% hit points each.
This means we have 8 attacks per round, each attack does 16.67% damage and each round is 4s. When an attack hits it debuffs 10% defense for 9s which means for 3 rounds in our example.
Start:
SR has 45% defense, 0.42%/s basic regen, 62.3% defense debuff resistance, scaling resistance at (60% - health in %)
GR has 45% defense, 66.7% resistance, 50% heal/40s, 0.42%/s basic regen
SR is at 100% health, GR is at 100% health.
Round 1:
SR and GR binominal dstribution is (ignoring probabilities below 5%): P(0)=51%, P(1)=36%, P(2)=11%.
We assume a hit.
SR is now at 100%-16.67%+0.42%*4 = 85.01% health and has 45%-10%*(1-0.623) = 41.23% defense.
GR is at 100%-16.67%*(1-0.667)+0.42%*4 = 96.13% and has 45%-10% = 35% defense.
Round 2:
Binominal distribution for SR now is: P(0)=30%, P(1)=39%, P(2)=22%, P(3)=7%.
For GR it is: P(0)=11%, P(1)=28%, P(2)=31%, P(3)=20%, P(4)=8%.
We assume 1 hit for SR (which is not unlucky) and 2 hits for GR.
SR drops to 85.01%-16.67%+1.68% = 70.02% health and has 41.23%-3.77% = 37.46% defense.
GR drops to 96.13%-5.55%+1.68% = 92.26% health and has 35%-20% = 15% defense.
Round 3:
Binominal distribution for SR is: P(0)=17%, P(1)=33%, P(2)=29%, P(3)=15%.
For GR it is: P(2)=6%, P(3)=16%, P(4)=26%, P(5)=26%, P(6)=17%, P(7)=6%. P(0)=0.1% which means that it is very very unlikely that GR isn't hit at all.
We assume unlucky now. SR is hit by 2 attacks, GR is hit by 5 attacks.
SR: To be fair I assume that the attacks don't hit simultaneously but slightly after another. The first hit drops SR to 53.35% health which triggers 6.65% resistance. The second hit drops SR to 53.35%-16.67%(1-0.0665)+1.68% = 39.47% health and 29.92%+3.77% = 33.69% defense.
GR: 92.26%-5.55%*5+1.68% = 66.19% and -35%+10% = -25% defense.
Round 4:
SR: P(0)=9%, P(1)=25%, P(2)=31%, P(3)=22%, P(4)=10%.
GR: P(8)=99% which means GR will get hit by all attacks from now on with no chance to recover his defense (enemies are capped ToHit).
We assume 2 hits for SR which is the middle ground. GR is hit by 8 attacks.
SR: First hit: 39.47%-16.67%(1-0.2053) = 26.22%. Second hit: 26.22%-16.67%(1-0.3378)+1.68% = 16.86% health. Defense is at 33.69%-2*3.77%+3.77% = 29.92%.
GR: 92.26%-8*5.55%+1.68% = 49.54% health. Defense is negative, enemies are capped ToHit.
Round 5:
SR: P(0)=4%, P(1)=17%, P(2)=28%, P(3)=27%, P(4)=16%, P(5)=6%.
GR: P(8)=99%.
We assume SR gets lucky and is only hit twice (I didn't say extremely lucky
). GR is hit by 8 attacks again.SR: First hit: 16.86%-16.67%(1-0.4314) = 7.38%. Second hit: 7.38%-16.67%(1-0.5262)+1.68% = 1.16% health. Defense is at 29.92%-2*3.77%+2*3.77% = 29.92%. SR was saved by a tiny bit of regen but is still in trouble.
GR: 49.54%-44,4%+1.68% = 6.82% health. GR uses heal. 6.82%+50% = 56.82% health.
Round 6:
SR is dead.
GR ends up having 14.1% health after round 6 and is hoping for some badguy drops a green soon.
Interesting, isn't it?
If the real question is whether Super Reflexes is a bit obsolete due to the ability of other defense sets to softcap, I'd have to say the answer is a definite "yes". In particular, Shield Defense can reach the softcap without giving up a lot, adds a lot of damage, and still has considerable defense debuff resistance (if you use the Hami-O trick it can hit 80%). /SR has scaling resists, but /SD has moderate resists full time plus some +HP, so really the only things /SR has going for it are a 20% recharge boost and easier softcapping. For low-end builds, that's actually important... but for higher end builds Shield Charge and One With the Shield (a tier 9 that isn't rendered redundant by softcapping) are a lot more useful. Also, Invulnerability can get /SR level defense plus very good resists, which makes it extremely tough (though it does have a weakness to psi).
I'd like to see a minor buff to /SR but I'm not sure exactly what it needs. It is a good set, especially in the SO game, but it loses out to Shield and Invulnerability (and possibly others) once you add IOs into the mix. Since the game is balanced for SOs the point is probably moot though.
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Not really.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
Malta have decent +ToHit don't they? I guess you could consider that a defense debuff
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Def debuff hurts powersets that have built for defense but lack defense debuff resistance.
To Hit bonuses for mobs hurts Def based toons more severely than those that have simply built for defense because they also have resistances.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I am fully aware that it is the AT modifiers that allow me to do what I've done and I don't deny the sacrifices that are made by others to achieve the protection I have.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Ok, it wasn't just attacks. I already mentioned the +3% defense unique, but there's also three sets of reactive armor. Otherwise, it's all in attacks.
And no, the defense in CoD does not suppress. This is the latest version I've posted. I've made some renovations to it since then, but I can't post those until I get home. |
There's some slotting there I might borrow myself, but I'm working with Brute numbers so softcapping is most probably not on the table.
And thanks for being honest, your build doesn't sacrifice much to be a tank, but it certainly sacrifices recharge and if it were a Brute or Scrapper the further sacrifices needed to softcap would be huge.
That being said, it looks like a cool build. Good luck with it.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Dechs (and Deus Otiosus ): Are you perhaps hammering on Aegis (about 4.5% En/N per set) to get that level of E/N? 20% from powers, +3% from Steadfast - you have four resist powers ANYWAY... I'm trying to stay away from specific build discussions but it's like yummy candy for me.
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The bonuses are smaller, but typed defenses are not always to be found in abundance and those 4 types are the most frequent so you're better off building for them using reactive armor than using Aegis.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
I may not have clarified sufficiently.
*/SR has taken between 7 and 9 powers, typically, and chosen SR instead of something like, say, Dark or Fire or Regen. They have, by choosing one powerset, given up the potential of another one. To take an extreme example, if you play SR instead of Dark EndBar, you are giving up a damage aura, a minion-stunning aura, an enormous heal every few seconds, fear resistance, psi resistance, end drain resistance, stealth without a power pool. SR has features of its own-three LoTGs worth of recharge built right in, for instance, the ability to see your own costume, knockback protection- but it's a choice you make. Get SR or get something else. |
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
But MOST of what you get for going SR scrapper is Defense, lots of it, that cannot be taken away. Easy softcaps. Debuff resistance.
If the Defense of other players, who got a different toolbox, is sufficient... you've been kinda robbed. |
What SR also has going for it, is cheap and easy defense. And once you're at the softcap, you're then free to add other things build wise.
Here's the kicker, those other builds who got a different toolbox?
What happens when they don't build for defense? How useful is that toolbox if you don't have any Defense?
Are your self heals, and resistances enough?
As I've said a few times, and as macskull said as well, if you're concern is other sets stealing SRs thunder you have no further to look than Shield Defense.
It has solid enough defense to get to softcap through IO sets, has resistances, a scaling damage buff and a crashless mini-nuke that with enough recharge can be available every 30-45 seconds.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
Farmer armor is extraordinarily powerful in MOST situations. Beating down the Rikti was mentioned earlier.
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I think it would be useful to come up with a specific set of ATs/powersets you're looking to compare.
Are we comparing Tankers to Tankers? Tankers to Scrappers?
Def based Tankers vs. Def based non-tankers?
Def based Scrappers vs. resistance or multilayer mitigation Scrappers?
Or are we only focused on SR vs. Resistance based sets that can build for defense?
If you go to the scrapper forums, and someone asks for opinions on SR - you will almost never hear a resistance set recommended over it.
Instead, you usually get something more like 'If you have enough influence, go for shields'.
And this is a point you've yet to address in this thread, or the BoTZ thread.
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Earthquake cast by Possessed Scientists is not only an auto-hit defense debuff, it's an auto-hit unresistable defense debuff, as my testing shows.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Are there still any ugly Thorns at level 50? or do you outlevel most of the really nasty things, the way you do with DE?
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I don't know if Earthquake cast by high-level COT works the same way.
It will trash a character's defense -- even one with 95% DDR.
But that probably makes it a moot point for your purposes, since DDR doesn't protect against it.
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Only to a point. On the one hand, it's like they've permanently debuffed your defense by the amount of their toHit buff. But there's an important difference here. In general, if they hit you again the effect on you doesn't get worse. It's typical of the debuffs which ride on mob (and player) attacks as secondary effects that the debuffs are stackable even from the same caster. So if a mob hits you and debuffs your defense, and either the same mob or another one with the same effect hits you again, your debuff gets worse.|
Originally Posted by Mr. DJ
Malta have decent +ToHit don't they? I guess you could consider that a defense debuff
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Mobs with (just) +toHit never have this effect unless they're using something like Blinding Feint, which gives them more +toHit when they hit you. But even in that case, such powers usually have practical stacking limits that mean the mobs can only benefit from one or two buffs. Moreover, -def makes everyone able to hit you more often, while +toHit only affects those wielding it. Of course you can get foes like Nemesis that apply +toHit to everyone around them. The interesting thing about the Nemesis scenario is that DDR is of no help at all.
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Technically, this is exactly the sort of thing that Markov analysis is best suited for, because the statistical one blurs the situational dependencies from one round to the next.|
Originally Posted by Myriad
Interesting, isn't it?
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Now that would be interesting. But I'm not volunteering to do that at the moment.
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Awww... |
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Technically, this is exactly the sort of thing that Markov analysis is best suited for, because the statistical one blurs the situational dependencies from one round to the next.
Now that would be interesting. But I'm not volunteering to do that at the moment. |
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Fulmans, Aegis gives F/C defense, not E/NE; 3.13% for 3 slots, 4.69% total for 5 slots. (IME, slotting for the second bonus is pretty rare.) As was mentioned, since S/L/E/NE is so much more common than F/C, Reactive Armor is used more frequently than Aegis in defense builds.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Dechs (and Deus Otiosus ): Are you perhaps hammering on Aegis (about 4.5% En/N per set) to get that level of E/N? 20% from powers, +3% from Steadfast - you have four resist powers ANYWAY... I'm trying to stay away from specific build discussions but it's like yummy candy for me.
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Besides Reactive Armor, some good sets for E/NE defense are:
Eradication, (PBAoE, 3.13% for 3 slots)
Thunderstrike, (Ranged, 2.5 for 3 slots, 3.75% total for 6 slots)
Basilisk's Gaze, (Hold, 2.5% for 2 slots)
Pounding Slugfest/Pulverzing Fisticuffs, (Melee, 1.25% for 3 slots)
Cleaving Blow, (PBAoE, 1.25% for 3 slots--not used much anymore since Eradication is so much better.)
There are also some PvP sets, but they're so hard to come by that I don't count them as a real option to help you soft cap. I also used to recommend BotZ, since 1.56% for just two slots isn't bad at all. Won't be worth it when the change goes into affect, though.
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I actually think this would be fairly easy to accomplish.|
Originally Posted by StrykerX
I'd like to see a minor buff to /SR but I'm not sure exactly what it needs. It is a good set, especially in the SO game, but it loses out to Shield and Invulnerability (and possibly others) once you add IOs into the mix. Since the game is balanced for SOs the point is probably moot though.
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The resist scaling was a good idea on the passives but it starts too late and doesnt scale soon enough.
Maybe something like this;
Dodge: 10% base resist to S/L plus 1% per 3% health loss (capped at 30% @ 40% Health)
Agile: 10% base resist to E/N plus 1% per 3% health loss (30% resist @ 40% Health)
Lucky: 10% base resist to F/C plus 1% per 3% health loss (30% resist @ 40% health)
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I can think of all sorts of exotic things that just won't happen. One thing that could happen is Practiced Brawler could get a small slottable +health(small as in something like +10% health). That would add only a small amount of increased protection without increasing +DEF and add the ability to slot Heal sets in PB.
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Originally Posted by StrykerX
I'd like to see a minor buff to /SR but I'm not sure exactly what it needs. It is a good set, especially in the SO game, but it loses out to Shield and Invulnerability (and possibly others) once you add IOs into the mix. Since the game is balanced for SOs the point is probably moot though.
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All I know is that if you want to see catastrophic defense failure, no matter the type of build, then fight mixed groups of Rularuu. Hell, or just the big groups of Brutes at the Storm Palace.
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You can't see it in realtime, though. You have to have a slo-mo instant replay cause it just goes by too damn fast. |
Originally Posted by Blunt_Trauma
All I know is that if you want to see catastrophic defense failure, no matter the type of build, then fight mixed groups of Rularuu. Hell, or just the big groups of Brutes at the Storm Palace.
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(WRT Aegis: I should stop pretending I remember sstuff and just check EVERY fact.)
Sailboat:
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Earthquake cast by Possessed Scientists is not only an auto-hit defense debuff, it's an auto-hit unresistable defense debuff, as my testing shows. I don't know if Earthquake cast by high-level COT works the same way. It will trash a character's defense -- even one with 95% DDR. But that probably makes it a moot point for your purposes, since DDR doesn't protect against it. |
My basic point in this thread was to try and see if SR is really going to outsurvive farmer armor (layered on another protection set) in a catastrophic-defense-failure situation, and I think it usually will.
Myriad: Is the Defense Debuff Resistance increased by slotting? I had some vague idea that it was, but I wouldn't bet my own money either way. (Ah, the To Hit mechanics. The more you look, the more you find.)
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People that debuff that I know of that I can think of my head
Sky Raiders swords and Machine gun have debuff
Tsoo some of the sword attacks have debuff
Battle Maiden sword attackers do
Most anything with assault rifle or sword generally has some debuff
There are a few more
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Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
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I'm not Myriad but i can tell you it sure does. I have one SR that's got capped DDR, and one that like 1 or 2% shy because of my passive slotting. And when your trying to squess more DDR out of Sheilds, you slot Membrain to do it in Active Defence. (Kind of sort of cheating maybe... not sure. I've got a few old membrains from a respec i'm saving for my Shield/Ice tank. Figured even if they fix that bug one day i'll just respec them out and use them elsewhere. heh.)|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Myriad: Is the Defense Debuff Resistance increased by slotting? I had some vague idea that it was, but I wouldn't bet my own money either way. (Ah, the To Hit mechanics. The more you look, the more you find.)
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But that only work in power where you can slot defence. Like invluns have a static 50% because they slot resistence. That's my understanding at least.
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most everything does some sort of -def. Im suprised the devs in the early days didnt give bats and fists a -def component.
From what ive seen, its usually on the order of 7% debuff or more per attack with 4 seconds between attacks.
so why dont cot give more xp?
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Actually, if that is the question and you are focusing only on other protection sets rather than softcapped squishies, the answer is probably a solid "no", at least in some cases. After all, the protection sets are supposed to be reasonably balanced out of the box (with the exception of high-offense sets like Fire Armor). When a non-defense set uses IOs and pool powers to softcap, they still have all their normal mitigation to fall back on if the defense collapses. /SR's defense won't collapse, but it will weaken somewhat... so as long as a given set's non-defense mitigation is as good as debuffed /SR the non-defense set wins out. In particular (assuming softcapped):|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
My basic point in this thread was to try and see if SR is really going to outsurvive farmer armor (layered on another protection set) in a catastrophic-defense-failure situation, and I think it usually will.
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Shields + Hami-O def debuff resist trick > SR (almost as much defense debuff resist + other goodies)
Shields without Hami-Os > SR in most cases (half the debuff resist, but a lot more damage to shorten the fight and extra health)
Invulnerability > SR as long as the enemy has Lethal / Smashing damage (lots more HP, high resists, a self heal)
Dark and Fire might be better than SR in some situations, worse in others... you're not going to softcap a /Dark or /Fire to all positions but you could to melee, especially with Parry. Still, they have better overall resists than SR and good heals. Likewise, Regen is not likely to be softcapped but even moderate defense is great when you heal that fast. Willpower is great if you are fighting large groups but SR is way better for solo AVs so it comes down to playstyle with those two.
Where /SR really shines is the low-end IO game. With SOs only it's good but nothing special, but it is far cheaper to softcap than other sets (even Shields) so it's one of the best sets for a cheap IO build. But once you start getting into high end builds many other sets start passing it, probably because Defense is the only mitigation you can get in any significant quantity from IOs. A few percent more resist or an extra 100% regen aren't going to make much difference in a fight, but an extra 20% defense sure will. Since /SR is only a few percent shy of the soft cap without IOs, about all a high end build does for it is allow not taking Weave to free up power slots or add some more regen and +HP (which actually does help at softcapped defense). But when you can get near-SR level defense on sets that already have high resists or regen and +HP you add a huge amount of mitigation compared to what /SR gets, and of course Shields gives everything SR does and more if you can afford it.
Still, not everyone spends a billion or more on every alt (I sure don't), so having a nice inexpensive way to get softcapped defense that also allows all weapon options isn't a bad thing. But just about every other set either has higher peak mitigation or near equal mitigation plus significant damage in a top end build. Though /SR does have one ability no one else has... it can hit a fully slotted Elude and dance around on an Earthquake while being pounded on by 20 Romans and never lose softcapped defense. Not something that comes up often, but being truly immune to even unresistable defense debuffs for two minutes might come in handy at times.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
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The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
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Hmmm...My Dark Miasma/Sonic did great against Cims.|
Originally Posted by StrykerX
That analysis really only applies to Scrappers, Brutes, and Tanks. Even moderate defense on a high-resist character provides a significant boost in mitigation, and even if the defense collapses somewhat you still have resists. Layered protection is the best mitigation, which is why Stone Armor and IOed Invulnerability are so good.
Try running that analysis again assuming either zero or around 30% resist since that is what most softcapped squishies run. Also assume more than 8 enemies since the main reason to softcap a squishy is to handle large spawns (like +2/x8). So figure one hit on average per round of attacks against a non-debuffing enemy, and 4-5 hits allowable before faceplanting. That gives enough time to wipe out most of the spawn (the minions) before they can hit often. Now look at defense debuffing foes... figure 1 hit the first round, 2 the second, and death on the third. That allows a lot less time to wipe out the spawn, and more importantly the odds of being mezzed goes up significantly as you get debuffed, and with a non-held +2 boss around mez = faceplant in many cases. Even if the minions are wiped by round 2, with only 25% defense or so the boss's third attack is much more likely to land (especially if there are multiple bosses). Bosses only have to hit a squishy a couple times to kill them. Granted, squishies fighting +2/x8/bosses spawns are usually pushing the absolute limits of survivability, but that's where you see the so-called "catastrophic defense failure" occur. With the exception of a handful of enemies like Longbow and their 40% or so defense debuffs, softcapped defense generally doesn't get completely negated. But if you're pushing so close to the edge that losing 5% defense triples your odds of faceplanting and losing 15% all but guarantees it... |
Not quite softcapped Ranged Defense (29-35%), 20-something percent Melee/AOE defense...like 67% S/L Resist (Tough/Epic Armor)...with a -tohit/-dmg toggle.
Doesn't really notice -defense at all.
Couldn't kill fast, but handled 3 ambushes on it's own.
RAD/DP is harder to softcap (no Shadowfall for additional defense), but is fairing pretty well with -tohit/-dmg (sadly its in two different toggles)...but I notice the Dark Miasma/ is more survivalable.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Quote:
Three ambushes of what size? Solo or a larger team?|
Originally Posted by BrandX
Hmmm...My Dark Miasma/Sonic did great against Cims.
Not quite softcapped Ranged Defense (29-35%), 20-something percent Melee/AOE defense...like 67% S/L Resist (Tough/Epic Armor)...with a -tohit/-dmg toggle. Doesn't really notice -defense at all. Couldn't kill fast, but handled 3 ambushes on it's own. |
Did they even reach you? As a DM/Sonic you have tools with which to slow foes and possibly keep them away.
It's not practical that they would not debuff you badly if they actually reached you and were able to actually beat on you. It seems more likely to me that you would have played keep-away and never given them that chance, which basically means they didn't get to apply their debuff.
If so, I think the story might be a tad different against ranged debuffers, like Praetorean Clockwork,
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Yes, there is an increase if you slot it (for defense). 62.3% is the basic defense debuff resistance you get if you have all the defense powers in SR without slotting them. I used only outside sources to get these numbers so I have no idea how high it gets. If you play with mids you can get the defense debuff resistance up to 157.57%, but I don't think this number can be correct for the real game. I assume it caps somewhere. Maybe someone with a fully slotted SR could check it ingame and tell us here.|
Originally Posted by Fulmens
Myriad: Is the Defense Debuff Resistance increased by slotting? I had some vague idea that it was, but I wouldn't bet my own money either way. (Ah, the To Hit mechanics. The more you look, the more you find.)
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Btw, I used the 62.3% not only because it is the basic value but also to give GR a chance in our little comparison. With better defense debuff resistance for the SR we quickly come to a point where we won't see any cascading defense failure at all. Maybe I'll redo it at some time with more realistic figures overall and see what happens then (no promises
).
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DDR caps at 95% (no idea why Mids doesn't account for this, as it's generally good about accounting for hard caps). As far as I'm aware, SR is the only set that can reach that regularly, and if I'm not mistaken they can do it with only SO slotting. Shields can get close when stacking Active Defense (more if they use the Hami trick), but they can't maintain 95%. So let's say you're on an SR with 48% defense and are hit with a -10% debuff. That debuff would have to stack six times over its duration (a few seconds for most NPC powers) in order to even bring you down to 45%, which is incredibly unlikely. An SR is much, much more likely to die due to lucky hits getting through than cascading defense failure, except in the case of unresisted debuffs, which are rare among NPCs and nonexistent (post-I13) among players.
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Originally Posted by Myriad
Yes, there is an increase if you slot it (for defense). 62.3% is the basic defense debuff resistance you get if you have all the defense powers in SR without slotting them. I used only outside sources to get these numbers so I have no idea how high it gets. If you play with mids you can get the defense debuff resistance up to 157.57%, but I don't think this number can be correct for the real game. I assume it caps somewhere. Maybe someone with a fully slotted SR could check it ingame and tell us here.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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