Make single target, quick recharge buffs PBAOE's.
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-16 19:11 in Suggestions and Ideas
I'd love something like this for Speed Boost and for the general shields.
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what happens when everyone is out of range of the buffs? and the only buffs i can think of that are tedious to keep reapplying is kin buffs. and at a cost of 45.5, if you only get 1 person with it it defeats the purpose.
Too many people who don't want certain buffs, and I'd hate to subject them to a Yes/No popup every couple of minutes.
The only way I'd be behind a change like this is if we were given a robust system to accept/decline/delete buffs as desired.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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Why is everyone out of range? If they are out of range you wouldn't be able to hit them with the buff anyway, right? The PbAOE should be large enough that it can hit everyone very reliably. 100 foot radius or so. There wouldn't be an animation to display this radius, so for anyone who really cares, it seems as though the buff just applies. |
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
what happens when everyone is out of range of the buffs? and the only buffs i can think of that are tedious to keep reapplying is kin buffs. and at a cost of 45.5, if you only get 1 person with it it defeats the purpose.
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That would be the major drawback though, wouldn't it? Unless you could somehow change the algorithm to multiply based upon how many people are hit with it, which I'm not certain is possible.
However, are you sure that drawback is too mighty that you wouldn't support the benefits it offered? You could still use the power in a small team, and you'd have far much more time to do something other than buffing. I can tell you, as a mastermind who regularly re-applies the power during battle, the endurance is not that huge of an issue. Especially when you factor in that most people re-apply buffs *after* battle anyway, when their endurance is recovering.
Also, with one slot of endurance, this would bring the total cost down to 32 Endurance.
Maybe a better idea would be to just increase the duration to 30 minutes or something, but I have a feeling the power is meant to have some sort of endurance penalty for using it.
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Originally Posted by Lemur Lad
Too many people who don't want certain buffs, and I'd hate to subject them to a Yes/No popup every couple of minutes.
The only way I'd be behind a change like this is if we were given a robust system to accept/decline/delete buffs as desired. |
What, such as speed boost? I don't know why you'd want to decline anything else, really. Perhaps add a system, similiar to the level up pact, which auto-declines certain external buffs.
I know a lot of people who don't like Thermal Shields (they're still a source of graphics slowdown to a lot of people). I also know people who really object to certain color choices on certain buffs.
Point is, you can't predict what people will object to. Better to give us the robust accept/decline/delete system people have been asking for for a long time before we consider mass buff applications that people may not want.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
I'd prefer not to have my endurance bar bottom out every few minutes just for convenience's sake.
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Hmm... is there any PBAoE which goes through walls? If not, I would assume it's not possible within the current powers system. If it's not within the current powers system, then implementing this would certainly cause some frustration when someone is just 5 feet away, but the game decides that they're behind that 5" wide column.
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Mmm... Good question. |
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Hmm... is there any PBAoE which goes through walls? If not, I would assume it's not possible within the current powers system. If it's not within the current powers system, then implementing this would certainly cause some frustration when someone is just 5 feet away, but the game decides that they're behind that 5" wide column.
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I know that I can set a Tar Patch down near an edge and it will go through the wall, but that's not exactly the same, is it.
Perhaps I'll go whip out my DB and check.
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I'd rather see the duration of these quick-recharge, low-endurance buffs extended to last much longer, say 20-30 minutes, or until you zone. Buffs like Fortitude and Adrenalin Boost would work as they do now. This might require that some buffs be toned down, or the stacking rules be changed to avoid unreasonably powerful multiple buffs. |
Originally Posted by Warkupo
My proposal then is to make defender buffs that have a recharge of 2 seconds into a *very large* PbAOE's which extends out from the target it is cast upon to hit everyone nearby, and cannot hit the caster.
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In general I prefer single-target buffs because I don't like forcing the team to gather round: I'd rather target each recipient separately according to their desires. Many people don't like getting buffs such as Speed Boost, and having to dismiss dialogs constantly would be a nightmare (it's bad enough with teleport and mystic fortune). Adding potentially dozens of configuration options for the buffs you will accept seems unnecessarily complex.
One additional change that I would like to see, however, is the ability to right-click the icon of a "friendly" effect to bring up a menu that includes a command to remove the effect from the character. That would allow each player to dismiss an unwanted Speed Boost, much the same way that a controller can right-click a pet to dismiss it.
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I would need to check (to be 100% absolutely sure, I'm fairly positive), but I beleive you cannot stack any of the 2 second recharge buffs now anyway, so increasing their duration wouldn't be a problem. My main reason for not just suggesting that is that the endurance cost in doing such a thing would be incredibly trivial. This seems like a far more simplistic (and thus likely) solution though. |
Originally Posted by Rodion
I'd rather see the duration of these quick-recharge, low-endurance buffs extended to last much longer, say 20-30 minutes, or until you zone. Buffs like Fortitude and Adrenalin Boost would work as they do now. This might require that some buffs be toned down, or the stacking rules be changed to avoid unreasonably powerful multiple buffs.
In general I prefer single-target buffs because I don't like forcing the team to gather round: I'd rather target each recipient separately according to their desires. Many people don't like getting buffs such as Speed Boost, and having to dismiss dialogs constantly would be a nightmare (it's bad enough with teleport and mystic fortune). Adding potentially dozens of configuration options for the buffs you will accept seems unnecessarily complex. One additional change that I would like to see, however, is the ability to right-click the icon of a "friendly" effect to bring up a menu that includes a command to remove the effect from the character. That would allow each player to dismiss an unwanted Speed Boost, much the same way that a controller can right-click a pet to dismiss it. |
Do we CARE that we're getting some sweet endurance deal or not? Or do we feel we need to have some cost to using these powers?
For ***** and giggles, I'm calculating how much endurance you use applying both Force Field shields to an 8 person team, minus the basic endurance recovered per second, just because I beleive the endurance cost I stated for such a change is less than what you would expend with my change, and would like to make certain. The main problem should be that the endurance disappears all at once, but if you apply the buff between spawns I don't see it being a big issue. My mastermind is totally capable of doing it many times DURING combat, at any rate.
*EDIT*- Math was pretty simple. Since the activation time is a smidge larger than the recharge, the each shield is ready again by the time you get done casting the other, which then just makes it a matter of multiplication.
Together the shields cost 15.6 endurance. Casting them both takes 4.14 seconds. Multiply each of those numbers by 7 (full party, not including yourself of course).
109.2 Endurance over a course of 28.98 seconds.
A person with no endurance bonuses is recovering about 1.67 endurance a second so you'll recover 48.39 endurance while doing all of this. We multiply 28.98 seconds with 1.67 to get the total endurance recovered.
109.2-48.39 = 60.81 endurance used.
Granted, it's really easy to include stamina, and a lot of people will take it, so let's do that as well. 2.48 is the endurance recovered per second with a 3 slotted, SO level, Stamina (at level 50, like it matters.)
109.2-71.672 = 37.528 endurance used.
Total Endurance using my suggestion: 45.5
Time Elapsed using my suggestion: 4.14 seconds
I've never had a problem with the ST buffs witha 4 minute timer. Even on 8 man teams.
It's that 2 minute buff that I keep glaring at. Waiting for the devs to extend it to a 4 minute buff.
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The problem with that is that you won't be on a full team all the time, and you'll never cast the buff to 8 people, since you can't target yourself. Oftentimes you'll be on a team with just one or two other people, yet the game will still tax you a heavy toll. And unlike a Mastermind, this doesn't get less apparent as you level up, since high levels don't guarantee full teams.|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
For ***** and giggles, I'm calculating how much endurance you use applying both Force Field shields to an 8 person team, minus the basic endurance recovered per second, just because I beleive the endurance cost I stated for such a change is less than what you would expend with my change, and would like to make certain. The main problem should be that the endurance disappears all at once, but if you apply the buff between spawns I don't see it being a big issue. My mastermind is totally capable of doing it many times DURING combat, at any rate.
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For the sake of argument, I'd sooner see the duration of the buffs increased. I wouldn't say 20 minutes, but 5 instead of 2 would go a long way.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The Leadership toggles, maybe?|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Hmm... is there any PBAoE which goes through walls?
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In any case, I don't terribly mind reapplying most of the shields as ST buffs, though the durations could be longer. However, Speed Boost can be pretty annoying to reapply, and I'll skip pointlessly brief things like Clear Mind without a second thought (and never will I ask for them, either).
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The MM buff is hard capped at a maximum of 6 targets
A single target click buff like and ally shield could conceivably affect
7 team mates
with 6 henchmen each
plus a fluffy
Thats 49 targets already (currently would be 438.75 for a MM force fielder), the upside return is simply too good even at 45 end per power.
add a gang war or two (which are affected)
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I'd be happy if the two FF and sonic and Therm and Ice shield buffs were just combined into a single buff. It'd cut down on my annoyance with these sets by oh about 50%. In the free power slot they could add a toggle that buffs the caster instead. It makes sense, right? One toggle to buff yourself, one click power to buff others. It's a reasonable division of how a super might learn to apply their powers, in my experience.
And since the powers would remain virtually identically enhanceable, if they decided to make this change it would have no discernable negative side effects.
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FF and sonic have a personal buff component in the PBAOE toggle power.
(Dispersion bubble and sonic dispersion)
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You forgot doing it outside at a Rikti invasion... |
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
The MM buff is hard capped at a maximum of 6 targets
A single target click buff like and ally shield could conceivably affect 7 team mates with 6 henchmen each plus a fluffy Thats 49 targets already (currently would be 438.75 for a MM force fielder), the upside return is simply too good even at 45 end per power. add a gang war or two (which are affected) |
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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This is because masterminds had to go through that *every time* just to be ready for a mission. It'd be like stepping into a mission and having all your powers have to recharge. The henchmen are, basically, the MM's offense, defense, and a chunk of their HP, all rolled into one (or six.) Prior to the "Pets zone with you" change, other classes could deal with a door ambush right away - the MM was essentially defenseless (and offenseless.)|
Originally Posted by Warkupo
Recently I have been playing a Mastermind a lot, and one of the changes I have noticed is that I no longer must cycle through every single pet to buff them with my Pet Buffing ability (in this case, Enchant Undead.) Instead, for a large amount of endurance, I can simply target any one of them and they all receive the effect.
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Buffing's simply adding to someone's capability, not getting them up to a minimum level to be able to *do* anything.
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I eventually got to thinking about all the annoying defender sets that drive me crazy when playing due to the constant re-application of buffs for every single party member in my team, and how greatful I was that my mastermind no longer had to do that. Which of course, prompted the thinking, "Exactly why does my Defender have to do this either?" My proposal then is to make defender buffs that have a recharge of 2 seconds into a *very large* PbAOE's which extends out from the target it is cast upon to hit everyone nearby, and cannot hit the caster. The endurance cost should also be changed to about 45.5 to account for the increased amount of targets. 45.5 keeps it in line with the mastermind buff, and allows sets that need to cast two buffs to be able to do so without having to crash their endurance. Opinions? |
Buffing just isn't that big a deal - and yes, I play quite a few defenders, corruptors, and controllers (don't forget, sharing buff sets.) Including, yes, FF, Thermal, Ice, and Sonic. Buffing times just don't take all that long.
Turn those into a PBAOE, and:
- END cost goes up, as you note.
- I'd put money down the strength of those buffs would *drop* as part of the price for the "convenience" (which, IMHO, isn't that convenient,)
- I can't selectively buff - or avoid buffing.
- I can't catch people I missed for whatever reason (slow zone, AFK, out of range, etc.) on the fly.
Quite frankly, turning these into a PBAOE buff would make me enjoy these sets *far* less.
Also adding: the buff amounts would likely drop because you would be applying the buff to yourself, which currently you can't do.
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i agree that i hate recasting the buffs to 8 man team, whenever i play a buff type toon (especially my FF mastermind) i rarely join large teams
on my FF mm right now, if im on a team of 8 and i try to keep my henchies bubbled too, its like trying to keep 2 teams bubbled (im almost constantly bubbling cause after i finish all 14 poeple/pets, the buffs on the first couple poeple only have maybe 1 minute left on the buff timer.
if im on my kin i usually only sb poeple who have end issues or stone brutes/tanks because the buff is so short duration i usually dont bother with it unless were just sitting around waiting for a mish or something)
on my buff toons (cold domination and ff), if im playing on large teams i honestly just buff poeple one time at the beginning of the mish, then ill usually try to keep poeple buffed but i wont chase poeple down and only buff poeple in range of myself
all of the single target buffs are not stackable from the same caster (unless you change zones)
i would like to see 1 of 2 things happen for buffs:
- increase duration (8-10 min duration)
- leave duration, but make them AoE effects (like inertial reduction, RAs, ect) and slightly increase end cost (not 45, but like 25-30)
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Nope. They're blocked by walls. And pillars. And dumpsters.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
The Leadership toggles, maybe?
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Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
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This isn't mandatory. There are such things as PBAoE buffs which do not affect the caster. See: Shout of Command as used by Cimeroran bosses and LTs.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Also adding: the buff amounts would likely drop because you would be applying the buff to yourself, which currently you can't do.
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That said, I don't support the suggestion. That's a major change in the mechanics of powers that I know some people like being able to specifically target on a player. If the whole buff recast thing is an issue, I'd rather see longer base durations. Not 20 minutes. That's just silly.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Actually the power could be set to only affect teammates rather than affecting friends.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
You forgot doing it outside at a Rikti invasion...
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Personally I'd say increase the duration to 15minutes. Yes it would make the buffs better (especially when people go around randomly buffing people outside of missions) but it would also make them a lot less painful to use. Of course with increased duration it becomes much more important to have a decline or cancel buffs option.
Recently I have been playing a Mastermind a lot, and one of the changes I have noticed is that I no longer must cycle through every single pet to buff them with my Pet Buffing ability (in this case, Enchant Undead.) Instead, for a large amount of endurance, I can simply target any one of them and they all receive the effect.
I eventually got to thinking about all the annoying defender sets that drive me crazy when playing due to the constant re-application of buffs for every single party member in my team, and how greatful I was that my mastermind no longer had to do that.
Which of course, prompted the thinking, "Exactly why does my Defender have to do this either?"
My proposal then is to make defender buffs that have a recharge of 2 seconds into a *very large* PbAOE's which extends out from the target it is cast upon to hit everyone nearby, and cannot hit the caster. The endurance cost should also be changed to about 45.5 to account for the increased amount of targets. 45.5 keeps it in line with the mastermind buff, and allows sets that need to cast two buffs to be able to do so without having to crash their endurance.
Opinions?