Quote:
Its so nice to have other people conclusively prove my points for me
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Awhile back someone posted that the system would be much better if the developers listened to the people who knew how it worked. Well threads like this are the answer to why they don't. If you can't discuss a concept without trying to discredit it through ancillary attacks that are nearly ad hominems why would you expect anyone to listen to your "advice". The nicest this thread gets is cries of you are doing it wrong, completely ignoring the concept that someone is saying "Hey this isn't very good no matter how you slice it"
|
L2Capitalism.
Quote:
I would hardly call a game that's on verge of another free issue and a major new expansion "dying". Games that are on its death throes simply do not do that.|
game is dieing. this is fact. trying to tell me or anyone is a complete and utter lie. Its has nothing to do with "well you jus came from playing WoW, and WoW is an anomally or what not." no im sorry. more ppl play Asheron's Call or lol FIESTA than play this game. mostly (OPINION) because this game has already reached it lvl CAP, and me like many others would like a game that cant be beat, i heard you cant beat WoW, but you can sure as hell almost can! so the easiest solution would be to merge servers, but im assuming the game wasnt built with function either. split it between, RPers (the only ppl who rlly have a place in game with nothing left to go on except the players imagination<--more OPINION |
Quote:
| GO BACK TO WOW!!! you say? lol i nvr rlly left. I play with my CoX when i want to play something TRIVIAL, something THEMED (this i take lightly as this player base lacks any idea of concept, which is sad because this game is ALL ABOUT CONCEPT. wanna hear my rant about NINJA RUN and how stoopid you look when you are not ninja-running? i thought naught. |
Quote:
It's shocking how few of the people who come to the market forum to gripe about something can actually put up decent debate. The observation has little to do with the merits of their complaint or suggestion, but it sure as hell does nothing for the argument when so many of them seem to be ...|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
I actually thought you had something substantive to say, but you just want to troll.
|
- Unable to use punctuation or capitalization in a way that at least generally resembles formal printed text. This one could be forgiven, if it didn't so often come bundled with...
- Overly willing to resort to ad homenim arguments against either existing market users and/or market forum regulars who try to debate with them, even when the respondents have not (yet) done so.
- Willing to make hyperbolic claims - such as how this game is dying, or how people are quitting over the market, etc. and so forth.
And then these same posters also seem to be the same ones that get all in a bunch when they don't get much respect from other respondents.
You don't have to agree with anyone else, but for frack's sake, at least try to make an argument that has a chance of convincing someone who doesn't already agree with you and who isn't going to fall for an army of straw men.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Just because free updates and a pay for expansion are on the horizon doesn't mean that the game is not loosing more people then it is gaining. |
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
I would hardly call a game that's on verge of another free issue and a major new expansion "dying". Games that are on its death throes simply do not do that.
|
Rouge is an attempt to bring people back if that fails the game is done. I however am here till the end.
Quote:
Actually, I'm not sure they proved your points much as you might think.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Its so nice to have other people conclusively prove my points for me
|
Quote:
| Overall gist: There are better ways to organize a game market. Once again it depends. If you want it to be some kind of PVP that promotes winning and losing then this one works. |
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Yes, but unlike you, I actually used complete sentences and broke it down point by point rather than stretching a paragraph or two over several dozen lines for no reason whatsoever.|
Originally Posted by Hard Kisses
/golfclap
perhaps i can make long post |
And, since you've stooped to fallacious argument styles I figured a bit of stealth-editing wouldn't be beneath you. So it's better if I break down your post without paraphrasing you. This way you can't tell later that "that's not what I said".
And, I don't give a damn that other people have said essentially the same thing I've said before. *I* am saying it now. Moreover, the fact that we're in agreement should tell you something.
And I didn't ever call you a liar.
I've said some of the things you say are wrong. Or misleading. I've also said that some of the things you're talking about are naive or irrelevant.
There IS a difference.
And yes, this is OPINION. Facts have been brought in when warranted. But you've blithely ignored them for the most part with some sort of greener grass mentality.
Quote:
| WoW is number #1 for a reason. |
This does not mean that everyone has to be like WoW to be successful.
This entire game is proof positive of this! 6 years ago, people thought Cryptic was nuts for not following the WoW model. Yet here we are, 6 years on. Still going. Still growing.
Quote:
| its said that it was built with a cap of 150+ possible lvls. that is called forethought |
What would more levels get us in this game? Never-ending power creep.
Great. We could be Superman and go play soccer with planets.
I'm not saying I wouldn't like MORE options for post-50 character development. But more levels isn't necessary in this game. At level 50, you pretty much are able to take on cosmic-level and interdimensional horrors, then go for a beer afterwards.
And, simply because people go "I want" doesn't mean it's a good idea, feasible, or even implementable. And, as with anything. A lot of different people want a lot of different things. On top of this, Paragon has to deal with the fact that the base engine for CoH isn't theirs. It's licensed from Cryptic. This, in and of itself, places constraints on them.
Quote:
| and that i have succeeded in annoying you. |
Quote:
| this does not bother me because the game is so ******* DEAD, mostly because, it isnt WoW. |
Quote:
| and in game, ill never have to deal with you |
Quote:
| Please know that everything ive said is by and far, and wanted/unwanted- is my opinion. i think the market sux!<---opinion! |
Quote:
| the game is dieing. this is fact. |
Quote:
| more ppl play Asheron's Call or lol FIESTA than play this game. |
Quote:
| i heard you cant beat WoW, but you can sure as hell almost can! |
Quote:
| so the easiest solution would be to merge servers |
Quote:
| I play with my CoX when i want to play something TRIVIAL, something THEMED (this i take lightly as this player base lacks any idea of concept, which is sad because this game is ALL ABOUT CONCEPT. |
Please go elsewhere if you want to get into a flamefest. You don't have the requisite investment in asbestos.
Now where were we?
Oh yes. Come back when you have an actual point to make son.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Quote:
Hard to argue with, but saying "the game is dying" is a far cry from saying the game is imminently about to die. A more fair statement, assuming that subscriptions are trending lower, might be that the game is declining. That's not the same as saying it's about to die, which is without any question the implication intended by anyone saying "the game is dying".|
Originally Posted by Epic_
Just because free updates and a pay for expansion are on the horizon doesn't mean that the game is not loosing more people then it is gaining.
|
It could be "dying" and last another two years.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Your right, and i hope it does last another 2 years. But many things are leading to the decline. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Hard to argue with, but saying "the game is dying" is a far cry from saying the game is imminently about to die. A more fair statement, assuming that subscriptions are trending lower, might be that the game is declining. That's not the same as saying it's about to die, which is without any question the implication intended by anyone saying "the game is dying".
It could be "dying" and last another two years. |
Everyone has their own reason for playing, it could be killing players in PVP, it could be ripping people off on the market, farming as many toons to 50 as you can, maybe even a superhero fetish. But ultimately what happens is the devs change things we like because someone that came from another game doesn't like it. Such as the pvp changes sure only a small percent of people pvp, but thats what they pay 15 bucks for. Sure people want tons of 50's so they PL them, but thats what they pay for, some people despise it and complain so they nerf the farm missions in AE and outside of AE. Some nerfs are good (fixing exploits) some are bad lowering XP which hurts everyone(family farm). These things lead to people canceling their accounts. Some casual players cant enjoy the game because they cant get a pvp io or a purple drop so they leave. since purples were introduced, i have got 1 drop on a non farm run.
God forbid we get some true lvl 50 content. But hey we got a walk power. But i still love the game and that's why im still here.
Quote:
So by your definition, any game that steadily loses subscribers is dying? That would cover all but a handful of MMOs, most of which steadily loses subscribers after initial retail release. |
Originally Posted by Epic_
Just because free updates and a pay for expansion are on the horizon doesn't mean that the game is not loosing more people then it is gaining.
Rouge is an attempt to bring people back if that fails the game is done. I however am here till the end. |
Also, development houses and publishers simply don't put in millions of dollars of investment (which is easily the cost of i17 and GR) on something that doesn't have at least a good chance to recoup that money.
This is certainly and older game, but dying? That's a stretch.
Quote:
Actually, I think the reason is more likely that, since you were satisfied with the market, when there were complaints, you simply didn't 'hear' them. (i.e. They didn't register since you dismissed them out of hand - you don't remember them X months later.)|
Originally Posted by Hard Kisses
why would the developers intentionally steer away from a WoW style AH? for all the years ive been playing WoW, not once have i ever heard a complaint. prolly b/c of that dirty BUY-OUT option.
|
Quite simply, to suggest that literally no one in WoW complained about their market is beyond imagining. They just weren't complaining around you, or you didn't notice the complaints when they occurred.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
Not once did i use the word Dying. i said loosing more subscriptions then its gaining. Which means they a loosing PROFIT, not money but profit. If something is not profitable then it will no longer be a priority and ultimately get the axe.
|
Originally Posted by Fury Flechette
So by your definition, any game that steadily loses subscribers is dying? That would cover all but a handful of MMOs, most of which steadily loses subscribers after initial retail release.
Also, development houses and publishers simply don't put in millions of dollars of investment (which is easily the cost of i17 and GR) on something that doesn't have at least a good chance to recoup that money. This is certainly and older game, but dying? That's a stretch. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
And I didn't ever call you a liar.
|
Yeah, that was me.
Keep it straight, plz!!1
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
Are we back to this again? Those so-called 'casual players' purpling their warshades? |
Originally Posted by Epic_
These things lead to people canceling their accounts. Some casual players cant enjoy the game because they cant get a pvp io or a purple drop so they leave.
|
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
Quote:
So yeah, the sun is losing power and will eventually collapse.|
Originally Posted by Epic_
Not once did i use the word Dying. i said loosing more subscriptions then its gaining. Which means they a loosing PROFIT, not money but profit. If something is not profitable then it will no longer be a priority and ultimately get the axe.
|
Let's all wring our hands and worry about it, k?
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
You may be correct. The bracketed section of the thread could be simply interpreted as internet bullies piling on a weak target. Generally though that doesn't happen unless they are in an environment where they feel they can get away with it.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Actually, I'm not sure they proved your points much as you might think.
|
But that's all a bit loose without further context and examples.
Lets take the premise: The market community is protective of the status quo, and really does not argue in good faith concerning any ideas that might upset the status quo.
On the status quo side here you have people that go from not understanding the mechanic being talked about , to being experts on how wow's auction house works. You have to enjoy the parts where they talk about how auctions with a buyout price don't work.
Take a look at this thread though from suggestions and ideas.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...2&postcount=28
When someone tells Smurphy he should read the market forums so he can learn more about supply and demand. Well you might infer that they are arguing to protect the status quo and aren't interested in a system more enjoyable for most people.
Here is the post
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...2&postcount=28
I got an enormous chuckle out of it.
The whole thread has names that are regulars shooting down what is a pretty reasonable idea and in pretty much the same consistent manner we see in this thread. The only variable that in the other thread the target is much more able to express themselves.
Quote:
| Emphasis mine. We know, without any reasonable question, that this is what the devs wanted, because their community reps have told us so. Given that, almost all the other characteristics of the market can be seen as stemming from it. Whether it's better or worse depends on who you ask and what they think is "better", but we have it on good faith it's how it is. |
Edit: And I see while I was writing this another one has started.
Quote:
Back to what, simply stating what cause people to leave. That was one of many examples. Everyone has their own reasons for leaving.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
Are we back to this again? Those so-called 'casual players' purpling their warshades?
|
BUT if i was a casual weekend player who played and ran taskforces and i had to HOPE that a purple would drop, or even the non purple supposedly more common then a purple, Miracle +recovery, Numina +/+, or an LOTG 7.5 i would be kinda mad after awhile. I mean look at it this way it would take alot of TF's for the casual player to obtain those 3 by using merits.
We all know you dont need them to play a toon or enjoy the game, but it make it much better not having to stop and rest all the time.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Epic_
We all know you dont need them to play a toon or enjoy the game, but it make it much better not having to stop and rest all the time. |
Son NOBODY needs stamina to enjoy the game that is just entitlement talk.
Quote:
a part time 'casual player' who is disappointed that their inefficient play style doesn't earn them the game's best rewards is an entitlement case and a poor candidate for retention.|
Originally Posted by Epic_
BUT if i was a casual weekend player who played and ran taskforces and i had to HOPE that a purple would drop, or even the non purple supposedly more common then a purple, Miracle +recovery, Numina +/+, or an LOTG 7.5 i would be kinda mad after awhile. I mean look at it this way it would take alot of TF's for the casual player to obtain those 3 by using merits.
|
l337 rewards require effort, and should require effort.
That sort of treadmill will attract many more goal oriented players than it will lose whiny entitlement cases.
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Nethergoat
a part time 'casual player' who is disappointed that their inefficient play style doesn't earn them the game's best rewards is an entitlement case and a poor candidate for retention.
l337 rewards require effort, and should require effort. That sort of treadmill will attract many more goal oriented players than it will lose whiny entitlement cases. |
But your so called l337 rewards are in the same class with trap of the hunters and lethargic, perplex, but the average player doesn't seem to have a problem having those drop yet they are in the same tier with the 3 i mentioned above. This is what frustrates them.
Quote:
Very well, in that case here is one for you. I HATED the market in WoW, in fact the only MMO I've played with a market that I liked even less was Star Trek Online.|
Originally Posted by Hard Kisses
why would the developers intentionally steer away from a WoW style AH? for all the years ive been playing WoW, not once have i ever heard a complaint. prolly b/c of that dirty BUY-OUT option.
|
Prices fluctuated all over the place but because there was no possibility of placing a buy order the only practical options were to pay whatever price happened to be up when you looked or spend your time camping the market (hence why so many people had a marketing alt they could mail stuff to for selling).
Bidding anything other than the buyout price was essentially worthless because they had duplicated the eBay system while leaving out the features that make eBay actually work. Specifically the option to have the system increase my bid automatically up to a desired amount and the fact that on eBay once someone bids on an item the buy it now option disappears. Because of this placing actual bids is worthless in WoW. Even if you place a reasonable bid someone will come along, bid a few coppers more and unless you happen to be online at the time there is nothing you can do about it.
Additionally it's worth pointing out that MMO items are essentially commodities. One "Ring of Awesome Uberness" is identical to another, there is no product differentiation. As such a consignment house works a lot better than a more traditional style auction house.
Quote:
That's not quite in the same category of complaint, though. Sure, it definitely impacts the market, but if people could convince them to, the devs can do something about that without ever touching the code, configuration or interface for the market itself.|
Originally Posted by Epic_
But your so called l337 rewards are in the same class with trap of the hunters and lethargic, perplex, but the average player doesn't seem to have a problem having those drop yet they are in the same tier with the 3 i mentioned above. This is what frustrates them.
|
In fact, they already did this once, by applying weighting to the drop tables used by merits and AE tickets.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
This is a truism though. Fine for generalities, but when you attempt to apply it with specificity, the cracks start to show.|
Originally Posted by Epic_
If something is not profitable then it will no longer be a priority and ultimately get the axe.
|
Neither of us have any idea of what NCSoft/Paragon considers "acceptable" numbers.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Hard Kisses said
Quote:
Uberguy said| This message is hidden because Hard Kisses is on your ignore list. |
Quote:
| In fact, they already did this once, by applying weighting to the drop tables used by merits and AE tickets. |
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
No. Sorry. Wrong. Go down to one of the Field Trainers in Atlas. Or to to at Ticket Vendor in AE. THOSE are stores. Items listed at a regular, unchanging price.
As always, the answer is "it fluctuates".
You've been here a whopping MONTH and you're trying to tell me that your small sample size for checking over the market trumps people who've been here since before there even WAS a market?
Pardon the derisive laughter. It's completely involuntary.
Prices in the last 20 months that I've played (on EVERYTHING, including purples) have fluctuated. With Issue 13, the price of purples shot into the stratosphere because people took up full time AE farming, reducing the amount of purples that are randomly generated through play of regular content.
Sorry, but it's changing, even now. So you're wrong.
Sorry, but you're really in no position to make these proclamations about how it's "always" going to be.
That's because you don't understand the system you're utilizing.
WHAT people want isn't the problem here. It's "how much are they willing to pay to get it".
Unfortunately for you, people with a lot more inf than you have are willing to pay a lot more than you are.
Thus you add to the problem.
Hurting their feelings? No. Feelings have nothing to do with this. What you're doing, though, is removing yourself as a source of market supply. When enough people function like this, supply drops, even in the face of constant (or increasing) demand. As such, prices climb. Depending on how much demand spikes at a given time will determine how much the price spikes. And, barring someone dumping a lot onto the market, the price will never quite fall back to the previous low levels.
Sorry, but if you need something to build a recipe, by definition it isn't junk. Junk is something that has no use.
You can repeat this as often as you like. It won't make it true. It'll simply lead to higher asking prices.
That's because you don't understand the system you're asking for, nor the systems you're asking this to be dropped on top of.
You hope. You know what the current solution to getting rid of product that goes for more from a vendor than on the market? It gets vendored. Meaning it's removed from play and usable by NOBODY.
That's exactly what'll happen to just about everything where the price floor drops below vendor cost. Then, once market supply clears out, you'll have people listing for well above vendor cost. Again. And getting it. Again.
Sorry, but the world (both real and in-game) doesn't operate by your value judgements.
Technically it's all junk. It's all virtual monopoly money. You stop paying your sub and the stuff is worth exactly ZIP.
The market is yet another minigame within the greater context of the game itself.
Sorry, it isn't. The sooner you accept this, the less pain you'll feel.
You see? That's the beauty of a market. Simply because players set prices today doesn't mean that the prices have to be identical TOMORROW.
Repeating a falsehood doesn't make it any more true.
Because they're avoiding certain problems created by such an auction house? And yes, that means introducing problems of their own.
Because everything doesn't need to be WoW?
Because the market the way it is works better within the context of THIS game?
That's because you're either lying about how much you've played or you've been terribly unobservant.
The devs have already made it clear that this style of "market PVP" is "working as intended" for the game.
Sorry, but someone paying me 100x (or more) for an item than I listed it for isn't an exploit.
People ALWAYS complain. The whole "You can please all of the people some of the time. You can please some of the people all of the time. But you can't please all of the people all of the time." thing.
We aren't flaming you. And we have been telling you why. You're WRONG.
Because it will be a short-term bump in the system until the market clears out.
Because it will simply lead to higher overall asking prices.
Please READ what has been posted to you instead of simply REACTING TO it.
See above please. It'll cause a large amount of temporary turmoil as the market adjusts. But it won't change higher pricing in the long run. Because it doesn't fix the problem of people paying too much because they're stupid and impatient.
Then you're not really willing to hear the answer.
No. You have an Economics 100 grasp of the broad concepts, the abstracts. That isn't the same thing as it's applied in the "real world".
Nice to be able to appoint yourself. Nobody to argue with you. Just that one nodding yes-man in the mirror.
And you're simply part of the problem.
You've BEEN told. READ it. Make SOME attempt at understanding it.
perhaps
i can make
long post
stating
with plenty of
disection
what everyone
already said
several times before
during
and after
-Star Trek? -lol but
everyone else
at the same
time
for the
wasting
even
more space.
or maybe ill not read it (i actuallly didnt)
the thread goes on
im still posting, but im actually over and
had to reread the entire post
again to remember what
point i was
trying to make.
oh yea
.
WoW rules.
the devs should destroy
CoX and
rebuild it in the image of
WORLD OF WARCRAFT.
except with super-heroes
and villians.
and this
please try and
build it so
it can as EPIC as
WORLD OF WARCRAFT
then maybe
the world can
sleep at
night as well
and as deeply
as i do, knowing that
its very easy
to annoy the
poeple who play
hello kittty i mean farmland err
maple story
i totally bet that
you
are still going to reply
to this and i know this from
forethought.
ive left plenty of
rooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooommm
for you to disect and flame
yes LOTS of space.
annoying isnt it?
all this for an opinion.
call me a liar all you want. WoW is number #1 for a reason. its said that it was built with a cap of 150+ possible lvls. that is called forethought. saying that if this game was built like WoW it wouldnt be any better is jus...(opinion) its amazing how much they have been able to do with one game. players what more lvls? DONE. people want more craftable items? DONE. more professions? DONE AGAIN. Players want flying mounts in zones where they were not INTENDED to be? hellz yea! we can even do that because we built our house outta bricks, not outta sticks or straw.
you see now- that this is all opinion.
and that i have succeeded in annoying you. this does not bother me because the game is so ******* DEAD, mostly because, it isnt WoW.
and in game, ill never have to deal with you.
Please know that everything ive said is by and far, and wanted/unwanted- is my opinion. i think the market sux!<---opinion!
except one thing.
the game is dieing. this is fact. trying to tell me or anyone is a complete and utter lie. Its has nothing to do with "well you jus came from playing WoW, and WoW is an anomally or what not." no im sorry. more ppl play Asheron's Call or lol FIESTA than play this game. mostly (OPINION) because this game has already reached it lvl CAP, and me like many others would like a game that cant be beat, i heard you cant beat WoW, but you can sure as hell almost can!
so the easiest solution would be to merge servers, but im assuming the game wasnt built with function either. split it between, RPers (the only ppl who rlly have a place in game with nothing left to go on except the players imagination<--more OPINION
GO BACK TO WOW!!! you say? lol i nvr rlly left. I play with my CoX when i want to play something TRIVIAL, something THEMED (this i take lightly as this player base lacks any idea of concept, which is sad because this game is ALL ABOUT CONCEPT. wanna hear my rant about NINJA RUN and how stoopid you look when you are not ninja-running? i thought naught.
take what i say
with a grain of salt.
im only here to annoy you
but you let it come to this.
im sorry? what were we talking about? i think it was...
my OPINION is better than YOURS!!!
did i get it right? or
do
I
have
to
go
on
?