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Fundamental lack of understanding here.|
Originally Posted by Hard Kisses
junk is junk. plain and simple. what you are basically saying is that it alright for players to manipulate the market and sell worthless items for more than should go for.
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If someone buys it, it was worth that price to them. If it's not worth that price to anyone, no one will pay that price. This happens all the time. Why do you think there are so many of some salvage listed for sale? (Mathematical Proofs, anyone?)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Hk:
If Junk is Junk, and not worth listing, then why are people manipulating it, as the demand is not there. Or maybe the price becomes high because no-one is listing as it is junk ? Hard to tell without specific examples to discuss.
And lets not forget that 'junk' is subjective. In the early days of I9, the LoTG +7.5% was sub 1 million (heck sub 100K IIRC) as people hadn't twigged what it really did and thought it was 'junk'.
Its not so very long ago that Kinetic Combats were in that 'junk' category, and all of a sudden now are very popular (I think partly that is fashion and will abate, but it is a good set, that is maybe inflated above its 'true' long term value). In general +recharge sets used to be the most sought after, but right now they have declined a little and +def sets are the fashion. In time that will change again.
I cannot address your comparison to the WOW buy out button, as I have never played that game, so don't have the knowledge to do so.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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Math proof is odd.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Fundamental lack of understanding here.
If someone buys it, it was worth that price to them. If it's not worth that price to anyone, no one will pay that price. This happens all the time. Why do you think there are so many of some salvage listed for sale? (Mathematical Proofs, anyone?) |
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Mathematic_Proof
It is used in 45-50 acc and end mod (+4 other commons).
Both should be desired, I think down to just massive supply from tech/dual drop farms.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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k i get it.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
This thread is great.
Awhile back someone posted that the system would be much better if the developers listened to the people who knew how it worked. Well threads like this are the answer to why they don't. If you can't discuss a concept without trying to discredit it through ancillary attacks that are nearly ad hominems why would you expect anyone to listen to your "advice". The nicest this thread gets is cries of you are doing it wrong, completely ignoring the concept that someone is saying "Hey this isn't very good no matter how you slice it" Lets talk about the premises. and Not the greatest presentation but lets see whats there. 1. The markets are poorly designed 2. The CoX markets have a structural tendency towards overpayment 3. They are not particularly easy to use or understand. 4. They can be manipulated. 5. The market provides insufficient information and is unnecessarily opaque. 6. The seller is in a dominant position in the market. Overall gist: There are better ways to organize a game market 1. Oh yes the market does suck and its almost certainly deliberate on the part of the developers that it does. I have no idea how you could come up with a less usable system. Lets see how real life would work if it functioned under wentworths rules A: go into the supermarket you want to buy a steak, the butcher would tell you guess the price, if you didn't guess high enough the butcher would tell you try again. If someone walked by and happened to hear your bid they could snipe your steak away from you while you were trying to figure out how much you should pay. Oh for all the people who will chime in that's a store, not a market. No A store is a market. When you chide someone for not understanding it only makes you look stupid if you don't understand yourself. B: The financial markets. You would like to buy bonds/stocks/a reit etc. You are told well you can't see what people are willing to sell for, you can't see what people are willing to pay and you get to guess. This can go on endlessly. What our "market" was meant to be is a guessing game not a market. It rewards people that want to play a guessing game and get good at the guessing game. 2. The CoX markets have structural bias towards overpayments. Well lets see. It is possible to always pay the exact minimum amount for any item on the market. All you have to do is bid creep by 1 inf increments until you hit that number. What isn't considered here is that there is a cost for doing so. It takes time, is prone to error, and in general nobody wants to actually do this. So yes there is a structural bias towards overpayment in the CoX markets. 3. Not easy to use or understand. Ymmv. Easy for some not so easy for others. 4. They can be manipulated. Oh yes indeed they can, and in lots of ways. This argument has been rehashed endlessly. The counter argument is that you can't raise prices profitably above the equilibrium price. Again a question of repetition over understanding. There is no guaranty that our market converges to equilibrium or at any given time it is heading in the direction of equilibrium. 5. The market provides insufficient information. This goes back to what the purpose of the market is. If the purpose is to provide a guessing game where a small minority wins big, then it is fine. If the purpose is to provide for the efficient exchange of goods amongst the players, then it clearly provides to little information. 6. The seller is in the dominant position in the market. It depends on the time and the commodity. It all depends on how long the sellers are willing to wait for a particular sale to clear, and how much competition there is in the commodity. The sellers for kinetic weapons are currently not in the dominant position, prophecies are another matter entirely. Overall gist: There are better ways to organize a game market. Once again it depends. If you want it to be some kind of PVP that promotes winning and losing then this one works. If you wanted a market that made it easy to exchange your goods that wasn't particularly onerous or rubbed losses in the losers faces, then this one didn't succeed in the aim. |
the market is fail...if its working as intended, then the devs fail.
again, tell me how a buy-out button would your and everyone elses' gaming experience. you can say its not needed all you like, but i beg to differ.
and as much as you would like to think you can exploit a market to the point where it makes a farming irrevelant, you cant. when you can see the listed prices, you are only fooling the stupid...this cannot be done in WoW.--this last bit to the guy who said something about WoW, about how he wins @ the AH or w/e...your items are easily avoided due to the SUPERIOR marketing function they employ.
and yes, i have been to the boards. i also know its a timbles amount of **** in regards to the FACT not everyone is as nerdy as us to go to a forum and talk about a game we prolly play way too much to begin with. so this agruement is mute b/c the forums are not the voice of the player-base, jus the voice of the nerdy.
i dont want the game to be like WoW. but if they did rebuild CoX using WoW methods the game would be whole lot more enjoyable...pvp would be awesome...mmm battlegrounds in CoX, yea this game would a lot better off if built to that scale. but sadly its not. thats my opinion.
i hadnt realized the huge numbers flocking to the game. when i log in you get 2 options: freedom or virtue. the other servers are dead. they are making ppl PAY for an expansion b/c they HAVE to make money somehow. that is why the charge for lol "booster" packs. much like the many other FREE games out. this game could function on 2 servers easily. the other servers are a waste of space, homes for the hopeless few with undying server pride.
When i left Triumph and went to play WoW the server still had some life. when i returned a few years later it was dead. at peak hours not a soul in AP, no costume contests, and a very dead chat.
i remember the days when it was the center of everything. Fusion Force, Global w/e...loads of well themed and organized groups ready to play, and an army of Nukems<---i founded them) now its ghosttown. i assume its the same on every server exlcuded Virtue and Freedom.
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As a Triumph regular, I beg to differ. That or you ended up on a lot of ignore lists. AP is not necessarily kicking with idle people, but most of us are off actually playing rather than standing round.|
Originally Posted by Hard Kisses
When i left Triumph and went to play WoW the server still had some life. when i returned a few years later it was dead. at peak hours not a soul in AP, no costume contests, and a very dead chat.
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Funny that.
None of the servers here are dead. However some of them can be 'cliquey'.
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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I think you are correct to some extent. But at the same time Kinetic Combat got substantially buffed when they changed how defense IO set bonuses worked. With the original implementation trying to build up typed defenses was extremely difficult since the set bonuses were done at the same rate as positional bonuses but you needed twice as many of them. Kinetic Combat gave a nice chunk of Smashing defense but building up typed defense wasn't that easy.|
Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Its not so very long ago that Kinetic Combats were in that 'junk' category, and all of a sudden now are very popular (I think partly that is fashion and will abate, but it is a good set, that is maybe inflated above its 'true' long term value). In general +recharge sets used to be the most sought after, but right now they have declined a little and +def sets are the fashion. In time that will change again.
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When they changed all of the bonuses building for typed defense got a lot more practical and due to the way the bonuses were changed Kinetic Combat kept it's Smashing Defense and added an equal amount of Lethal Defense (and a small amount of melee defense).
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I love me some unintentional irony. |
Originally Posted by Hard Kisses
most of the MMO player base are retarded and their ignorant ideas and suggestions are better left unsaid.
[...] it was a suggestion. |
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That's a load of crap.|
Originally Posted by Hard Kisses
i hadnt realized the huge numbers flocking to the game. when i log in you get 2 options: freedom or virtue. the other servers are dead.
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I think your bar for "dead" vs. active is skewed by the fact that WoW has millions of players.
WoW is an internet phenomena, and that cannot be definitively laid at the feet of the game's mechanics. It had an immense guaranteed following at the outset based on nothing more than its namesake, and that snowballed into a subscriber level that allowed it to achieve a stability unheard of in MMOs before or since. There are lots of things wrapped up in that - huge social ecosystems have a certain stability just because they're big. Do the game's mechanics matter? Of course they do - if WoW was universally suck no one would play it, Warcraft name brand be damned. But we can't point to any one feature in WoW and say "WoW is a success, you should emulate its features."
You don't like the market. You like WoW's better. We get it. This isn't WoW, and the devs do want the market here to be a mild form of PvP.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
well damn ppl! not one person can tell me why a buy-out button would a buy-out would RUIN the game for them. id hate to think i was winning an agruement, b/c essentially that is what my 1st post was suggesting.
Fusion Force-Guy: if i made an iggy list it would be Icy Bubbles, but i doubt it. im only an *** when im on the boards and ppl are shooting down a suggestion, with no good reason or arguement as to why.
i understand you enjoy the bidding thing, good for you.
you must understand that some ppl DONT like it. and would like a BUY OUT option.
tell me how its bad.
I'm pretty sure that "this won't ruin the game" doesn't qualify as a persuasive argument for changing something.
I had a look at the WoW auction system, and it looks more like eBay, where an item is listed for a fixed timeframe and the highest bidder at the end of that time wins. In that context, the buyout button seems to function like a "buy it now" price.
So how would this function in CoH? Wouldn't people just set the buyout price at the same level as the asking price to ensure that they got the price they wanted? Or are you suggesting that the entire system be changed to be like WoW's?
As I do not play WoW, please inform me to exactly how this magical buy out button would work in our current market system?
As I see it, there would be no way to implement such a button with out changing the way the market currently works (high bidder get lowest listing)... maybe they could make a button that would let you pay the highest listed price... not a button I would use.
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I don't believe that anyone has claimed that it would ruin the game for them. You are basically making a straw man argument.|
Originally Posted by Hard Kisses
well damn ppl! not one person can tell me why a buy-out button would a buy-out would RUIN the game for them. id hate to think i was winning an agruement, b/c essentially that is what my 1st post was suggesting.
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It would change how the market works. It's hard to say for sure, overall I think the impact would be pretty minor. Patient people would still continue to place low level bids and get good prices. People like you would just press the "buy it nao" button and then come on the forum to complain about how people are jacking up the prices. Marketeers would probably lose a bit of profit sine we'd be in closer competition with each other but as long as people use the buy it now button we'd still make plenty of profit.
The issue for me is psychological. I'd rather give people information that encourages the sort of activities the market is intended to encourage (specifically patience) than give information which encourages them to waste money.
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What you're doing is a mix of two logical fallacies. First is "Burden of Proof" - arguing that you're right until proven wrong, which is not a given. Second, you're using "Excluded Middle," which says that only the extremes matter, or raising a Straw Man - if we can't show it doesn't ruin the game then it should be done.|
Originally Posted by Hard Kisses
well damn ppl! not one person can tell me why a buy-out button would a buy-out would RUIN the game for them. id hate to think i was winning an agruement, b/c essentially that is what my 1st post was suggesting.
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Given that your argument is being presented in such a way, I don't think you should be worried about winning an argument. Especially on the internet.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Redoubtable
ISo how would this function in CoH? Wouldn't people just set the buyout price at the same level as the asking price to ensure that they got the price they wanted? Or are you suggesting that the entire system be changed to be like WoW's?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Snails_NA
As I do not play WoW, please inform me to exactly how this magical buy out button would work in our current market system?
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Pardon my density, but wouldn't that make the entire bidding process obsolete? If I can instantly buy the cheapest listed item then I'd only need to place a bid if there were no items listed.
Edit: thinking some more, it would actually create a situation in which buyers would be required to gamble on the best time to place a bid for something, and allow sellers to gouge massively on low-supply items.
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Sorry, but the burden is on you to show us how it would improve the system, not the other way around.
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Originally Posted by Hard Kisses
well damn ppl! not one person can tell me why a buy-out button would a buy-out would RUIN the game for them.
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Maybe it would buy the cheapest item at the price that the most expensive of that item is currently listed ?
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
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There would still be a strong advantage to placing bids. The price of most items are highly cyclical so placing a bid would mean that you can get the low ebb price rather than the current price. The only difference would be that people who insist on being gouged would save a bit of money since they would pay the exact bidding price rather than the extra they are currently likely to pay.|
Originally Posted by Redoubtable
Pardon my density, but wouldn't that make the entire bidding process obsolete? If I can instantly buy the cheapest listed item then I'd only need to place a bid if there were no items listed.
Edit: thinking some more, it would actually create a situation in which buyers would be required to gamble on the best time to place a bid for something, and allow sellers to gouge massively on low-supply items. |
Personally though I'd rather see information designed to help people who are patient but don't follow the market closely (i.e. more transaction history).
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An interesting idea, the problem is that some joker (possibly me) would end up placing 2 billion sales for popular items thereby rendering it completely useless. Sure it's a waste of 100million, but it's also deliciously ebil. So it would basically become an inf sink until all the salvage and most of the cheaper recipes have a 2billion "sale" up (Fulmens already has luck charms covered)
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Originally Posted by Catwhoorg
Maybe it would buy the cheapest item at the price that the most expensive of that item is currently listed ?
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I don't see how it would have much of an impact either to be honest. Let's way I regularly work a niche on Crushing Market: Chance for Tears. The average selling price is 10 million. I currently list mine for 4.5 million and they routinely sell for 10 million anyway. With a buy-out system (which is optional in WoW, as far as I understand it), I'd just set my buy-out price at slightly over 10 million. I'd love to know how this would drive down prices, when I'm already listing items well under the average going rate.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
I don't believe that anyone has claimed that it would ruin the game for them. You are basically making a straw man argument.
It would change how the market works. It's hard to say for sure, overall I think the impact would be pretty minor. Patient people would still continue to place low level bids and get good prices. People like you would just press the "buy it nao" button and then come on the forum to complain about how people are jacking up the prices. Marketeers would probably lose a bit of profit sine we'd be in closer competition with each other but as long as people use the buy it now button we'd still make plenty of profit. The issue for me is psychological. I'd rather give people information that encourages the sort of activities the market is intended to encourage (specifically patience) than give information which encourages them to waste money. |
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True, but I think what HK actually want is to be able to see that you've listed them for 4.5million. Basically see what the lowest sale price is. That would have an impact since it would effectively decrease the size of most niches but it wouldn't matter a lot. If people could see the exact selling price there would be more incentive to lower the asking price which would squeeze people out of niches. It's hard to say exactly what the long term effect would be. My guess is that we see slightly lower average prices but higher price spikes.
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
I don't see how it would have much of an impact either to be honest. Let's way I regularly work a niche on Crushing Market: Chance for Tears. The average selling price is 10 million. I currently list mine for 4.5 million and they routinely sell for 10 million anyway. With a buy-out system (which is optional in WoW, as far as I understand it), I'd just set my buy-out price at slightly over 10 million. I'd love to know how this would drive down prices, when I'm already listing items well under the average going rate.
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Yes, there are time limits on auctions in WoW, as well as players bidding against each other. Counter bids increase the time limit left on an auction, and bidders don't win until the auction time runs out, unless they Buy-Out. It is a totally different system, and HK seems to be simplistically focusing on the Buy-Out function to the exclusion of all else. |
Originally Posted by Redoubtable
I'm pretty sure that "this won't ruin the game" doesn't qualify as a persuasive argument for changing something.
I had a look at the WoW auction system, and it looks more like eBay, where an item is listed for a fixed timeframe and the highest bidder at the end of that time wins. In that context, the buyout button seems to function like a "buy it now" price. So how would this function in CoH? Wouldn't people just set the buyout price at the same level as the asking price to ensure that they got the price they wanted? Or are you suggesting that the entire system be changed to be like WoW's? |
If anything, I would think that the type of system where bidders don't actually get the item until the auction ends unless they use Buy-Out, would only lead to an increase in the BUYITNAO attitude. HK seems like the epitome of the BUYITNAO player, and I have to wonder how much of that attitude is a result of the WoW auction system.
Good point, I think I'm mixing the perspectives of a smart buyer and a "buy it nao" type in there.
In specific terms (speculation on price movements aside), the main problem I can see is the potential for sellers to list low-supply items at enormous "buyout" prices, waiting for a naive buyer to click the button and pay 100 mill for some mid-level vendor trash.
I expect that this is less prevalent in WoW because auctions are time-limited, meaning that the seller would have to continually re-list the item (presumably at a cost) in order to try something like that. CoX has no such restriction, which could lead to low-supply items becoming a minefield for the unwary buyer.
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Right, but the Buy-Out price doesn't show the actual listed selling prices, it simply shows whatever amount the seller want to set as a buy-it-now price.
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
True, but I think what HK actually want is to be able to see that you've listed them for 4.5million. Basically see what the lowest sale price is. That would have an impact since it would effectively decrease the size of most niches but it wouldn't matter a lot. If people could see the exact selling price there would be more incentive to lower the asking price which would squeeze people out of niches. It's hard to say exactly what the long term effect would be. My guess is that we see slightly lower average prices but higher price spikes.
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As someone's quote says, "If you didn't leave a bid to buy it for at least 24 hours, you didn't actually try to buy anything."
Time is money, very literally.
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