No real tankers in AE?

Not a problem Aett. Mis-communication seems to be my main problem in this thread. You nailed it when you said I was talking about team synergy. For the record, I tried tanks as my first characters in the game. I was slightly unhappy with the damage, and switched to brutes. My first 50 is the very tanky SS/Invul Brute. My main is a SS/Will brute. I have a 50 Will/SS Tank. I got a 39 Invul/Dark Tank I am currently leveling. A 35 Stone/SS Tank I abandoned after hating on granite. Various other lower level Ice/Shield/etc. Tanks I have experimented with. Point is I like tanks. I got very frustrated that their damage was not scrapper level, so I switched to Brutes. Coming back to them after a year redside I felt that I understood them much better. I now play my will tank as a team buffer/agro magnet. I use all of his end to run the 3 leadership toggles. Not everyones cup of tea, but I enjoy knowing that those who have waded in next to my tank to help with the killing are getting buffs. While my tank controls the strategic placement of team/mobs. My Invul/Dark is about as tough as a non I/O'd tank can be. That build is just tough. Not the best damage dealer of the tanks, but wow, what a survivor. Yes, some tanks can do very good damage. However, when I want to do damage I drop onto my purped out SS/Will brute and grind. Hard to match that for a combo of tough and mean. Fights like a wet cat.

Well i have a very standard build for my Shield Defense/War Mace Tanker and even that i can do very good tanking. I hold aggro very good so mostly i team with my two main teammates which are Illusion Controllers and i do a good job (not the best in any moment)

A mistake i was doing it was concentrating in damage and i have stop that since i was trying to act like a Scrapper and i now i doing what the main Tanker function is. Yesterday in Freedom was a great night doing Katie Task Force and a Marauder lvl 54 farm.

Now it is time to save for a build which can help me doing the best in big teams and i admit i have a lot to learn of the archetype i have decided to give my CoH life to, The Tanker.

Since I've been asked to comment, in my opinion a 20x increase in kill speed is unlikely.

Ignoring all other factors which might induce inefficiencies, suppose the tanker emitted a stream of single target damage only at a rate proportional to its damage modifier of 0.8, and the blaster fired non-stop AoE damage at the highest normal AoE cap (15) proportional to its damage modifier of 1.125 for ranged damage.

That would mean that on a normalized basis the tanker would be dealing damage of 1.0, and the blaster 21.1. In other words, the combo would be dealing 22.1 times the damage of the tanker alone.

Realistically speaking, this requires impossible to achieve circumstances in real life, and it barely reaches 20x, and it assumes the blaster can deal that much damage and be essentially indestructible.

Also, if a solo tanker was really that much slower on average compared to the average duo, the devs would have taken action back in I11 when they took action to rebalance blasters who were actually underperforming a lot less than that.

My guess is that the average is closer to something between 3x and 5x, and probably 8x represents the outer limit on kill speed increase outside of conditions where the blaster is really fast and the tanker is really slow. 12x probably starts to enter the realm of exploitive circumstances or a hypothetically really inept solo tanker. I doubt its possible to even engineer a 20x situation for any sustained length of time in the real game (as opposed to on-paper), even with carefully designed situations and careful min/maxing, except for AV and maybe EB soloing** or deliberately constructing a tanker with no damage.


** Its here that two can be way faster than one, if the one has only just barely more damage than the target has regeneration. The addition of one more anything, even another tanker, can make a huge difference under the right circumstances. But this is a rare circumstance in terms of leveling from one to forty.

Okay boys lets put this argument to bed once and for all. I agree with Rylas and I am going to use MATH to prove that it is not possible for a Blaster to do 20 times the damage of a Tanker.

I took the average damage per activation numbers for my best Tank .. my SD/SS and the same numbers for the attacks my best Blaster had ... my Arch/Ice.

Tanker.. Total damage from one activation of all attack 1379.50 in 16.94 seconds of time to activate

Blaster.. Total damage from one activation of all attack 1529.85 in17.67 seconds of time to activate

1379.5/16.94 = 81.43 points of damage per Second

1529.85/17.67 = 86.57 points of damage per Second

Now recharge times will make a difference but the tanker has 4 attacks that take more than 6 seconds to recharge and the worst is Shield Charge which even with a reduction is still 90 seconds. On the other hand the blaster 5 attack that take more than 6 seconds to recharge including one that take 20 and another that takes 36 seconds.. the Blaster recharges a bit faster due to the 90 seconds for Shield Charge but it's pretty even on most of the other attacks all falling in under 5 to 6 seconds and many in less than 2 on both ATs.

Overall the tankers powers take 171.1 seconds to recharge/ 10 attacks = 17.1 seconds

The Blaster 103.55 seconds to recharge / 9 attacks = 11.50 seconds

Now this is all very raw data but that means a Tanker can expect to fire off every attack for damage about 3.5 times a minute (and that is greatly affected by that one 90 second recharge on Shield Charge) but 81,43 X 3.5 = 285.355 points of damage a minute. The Blaster's numbers 86.57 X 5.2 = 450.164 a minute. Doing the math 450.164/285.355 = 1.57 times the damage in a minute NOT 20.0 times the damage not even 5 times the damage. BOTH characters are 50 levels and both use a combination of IO and SO enhancenments since I am NOT one of those people willing to spend billions to Purple IO out any character. My tanker has every defense available and took added attacks (which are figured in to these numbers) with its epic. My Blaster took added holds and defense and not one of its epics added attacks to its chain. Numbers may vary by powersets and by the way players slot but NOT by that much... 1.57 is not even close to 20 and my 50 level tank can chew through mobs with a lot more abandon simply because it has more hit points and more defenses. Mt Blaster can solo as well and did/does all the way to level 50 but has to move a little slower and more carefully taking on one mob at a time. I practice herding with my tank solo grabbing 2 or 3 mobs at a time or more, depending, and just stands there surrounded by targets pounding on them so really I'd say it's actually pretty equal or possibly even favoring the tanker for speed. Now you Tanker/Blaster combo is going to have to go at TANKER speed unless you plan to run ahead and take on mobs by yourself which sort of defeats the whole idea so 2 tanks do 571 points of damage a minute while a tanker/blaster combo would do 735 a minute.... that's about 1.3 times the damage output! For your claim to be true the blaster in that combo would need to do over 11000 points of damage a minute and I don't care what build and what type of enhancements you use that just is NOT going to happen.

Of course there is the human factor.. how fast can I get those powers to activate by clicking or hitting binds but since I AM PLAYING BOTH we will call that a toss up. Sorry Blue but you wanted MATH.. I just gave you math and i hope that helps the rest of the Tankers out there when a team leader says.. You only hold aggro I need scrappers and blasters for real damage. The fact is that all Tanker attacks, slotted for it or not, have a certrain amount of taunt added to them... YOU want the Tank to be standing there pounding on things because each hit that lands only taunts more. Now My SD/SS has One with the shield which taunts constantly, Foot Stomp which I slot for damage and accuracy but knocking everything on its butt taunts as well, and Shield Charge taunts like crazy.. so I have one aura and 2 attack taunting before I ever touch the T A U N T button.

Of course I am sure, from the posts I have seen you make responding to criticism that you'll claim that doesn't apply to your 2 level tank.. You're right it doesn't No tank alive can even think about taunt until level 10 and unless he is insane or has a debt wish doesn't rush into a huge mob until after 15 or even 20. Then again, Archery aside, how accurate are most Blasters attacks until about that same time frame when they start getting Sos or start to IO... I don't even bother with IOs below 20 level because I tend to team a lot and those levels fly by so fast even the IOs are useless quickly before then. I'm sorry you are wrong.

Thx Arcana for your reply, it was thoughtful. Wendy, I get your point, I really did not follow where you got your numbers from.

Let's just go for the average of Arcana's numbers. 3-5 times the kill rate, sustained. Anyone agree with that? Anyone disagree with that?

How the hell is this thread still going

Mostly cause I got the bulk of my work done early this month and have time to post :-).


But seriously, let's let it die. I delved into this trying to find out if some tankers were really that anti-team. Between this thread and the guy that wants to solo farm with a tanker I think I got my answers.

Cyas.

I'm definately noit anti team with any AT I play. I solo occassionally for fun or when I can't find anything interesting going on but I always have my globals running and will switch to another character and even from Blue side to Red side if a good TF or SF comes up. With my characters over 40 I hit PI and start advertising X level ____ LFT... if no one responds of I check and discover a whopping 5 or 6 players in zone I solo rather than standing around doing nothing. Sadly I do know players, good friends, that will ONLY play with friends and when no one is around they'd solo for days before joining a PUG. The reasons vary but include a lot of bad teams they wound up on with horrible leaders and included in that is the notion that "Your a tank all you do is hold aggro." "You a Defender what do you mean you don't heal?" "I don't like scrappers they never stay with the team always running off on their own!" and countless more. I tend to ignore these things and just go with the flow.. they don't.

I've seen this sort of ?? "profiling" ?? Myslef recently. I have been doing a lot of ITFs with my Mastermind to build prestige for a new Villain Group a friend and I have. A few mornings ago a guy must have advertised 4 or 5 times wanting to know if anyone was interested in an ITF. I was on a 17 level Defender at the time Came back in the TF global and said sured I'd join and would switch to my 43 level MM. At that point he announced "well that makes 3 of us" and then the volunteers started up. I logged off and back on with my MM and headed to Cimerora. Got there and waited for an invite.. standing RIGHT behind the team leader and letting him know it was me and I was there and ready for an invite. Then I watched as he and 7 other players took off to tackle Romulus.. I'd been replaced by an Arachnos Crab I think. Funny thing is by that time I had done about 5 ITF in that same week and everyone was a success. I debuffed like mad and my minions dealt out a ton of damage.. but he wanted a support AT. Damage, Heals, rez, debuffs and slows? Sounds like support to me. Worst of all he didn't even have the decency to say anything to me just ignored me completely and took off. I wondered how much longer he'd have been begging for team members if I hadn't spoken up to begin with and there I was all alone with Imperious. best part... later that day I somehow ended up team leader, briefly, forming an ITF ..turn leadership over to a 50 level after I built the team and it was the smoothest, easiest and least DEADLY one I'd done all week. But everyone knows masterminds are lousy team players.. thay are used to soloing everything and their pets are annoying. My point? Everyone has some notion of what each AT is and does and more than half the time, unless they play that AT too, they are dead wrong.

Oh and Blue my number come from the Devs.. I logged on my tank and my blaster and went into the enhancement management.... Clicked to show stats and got the Average Damage per Activation they assigned based on the enhancements I had slotted. The activation time THEY assigned to each attack and the recharge times based on the number of recharge reductions I slotted to each attack. Some people may use more IOs than I do so blaster damage and recharge may vary but the same is true for the tank.. I will give you MAYBE 2-3 times the damage if a blaster has spent a fortune and really IOed out his build.. then again a TANKER can do the exact same thing.

You ran into some bad tanks.. They are out there and so are bad blasters, scrapper, defenders and controllers. Part of the reason you have trouble finding the good ones is the very notion you have of what a tank is and does. The good ones are so tired of people assuming they can only do ONE thing well that they either solo constantly or only team when they are the leader and hand pick their team from a group of friends. The GOOD tank I learned to herd form is exactly this way. he will NOT join a PUG to save his life and would rather solo or play another AT than TANK for people he doesn't know. Sadly I think he misses out on meeting a lot of new people and making new friends that way but he just doesn't want to deal with the BS anymore

Guess this thread just will not die. lol.

I have been tanking this week myself, because of a leprechaun group we been running for years (just around st paddys day), and to level up my currently 39 Invul/Dark. Now, I probably do not have to repeat how I tank. I am a bit of a taunt bot, but I also like to do damage. Dark has 2 AoEs, although the rech is longish. I have vet badges, so basically I get 2 Dark Maul cone attacks. The last Dark power says it affects up to 5, swear I've never seen it affect more than one. Anyways, I am spamming attacks. But I am taunting like a freak, and trying to use aura to hold the mobs. I swear, half the time it is like the team has never seen a tank work before. They fight half a room away from me. I am using most of my concentration to pull one guy they have grabbed back over to me. The nice thing was running with the Leprechauns, my tank was much lower level (20-Will/Mace), but the team was all vets. I popped out, grabbed agro, made sure that the cones were aimed away from the team. We rolled through missions with ease.

Wow, I don't check since I posted and this is what happens? Really, from someone who kinda helped start all this, we should stop on this note.

Teams can help Tankers greatly. Tankers can help teams greatly. The end. Even going 2-3 (or 3-5) times faster is a lot faster.

The thing is a bad tank sticks out like a sore thumb, while a good tank can make up for a lot of below average fillers on a team.

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No tanks don't need taunt. If you can't handle a few rogue mobs, that's your issue. Tanks don't live to do nothing but taunt so you can play however you want.

At Posi levels a blaster will outstrip a tank's damage, so I can sort of see the opinion being formed on that basis. By 40ish with all the incoming pain and mez a tank will start pulling ahead in game (on paper is a totally different matter). My experience says a tank and blaster duoing will split the damage about 2/3 roughly with a slight edge to the blaster. If each were to solo it will still be 2/3 but with the advantage to the tank. I cannot concieve of a situation where a blaster could outdo a tank 5/1 much less 20/1.

RE:taunt vs dmg

I do my own damage thanks and always take taunt. Not because I need it for aggro management but because it has such juicy IO boni.

FWIW this is coming from someone with 3 blasters at 50 and 10 tanks (see guide in sig).
I am also one of those people mentioned before who refuses to pug a tank. I've had enough of the crap already. I tank solo or for friends, that is it.

One thing that hasn't been addressed into the ground, tho a few have touched on it is: why do people (mostly the OP) expect the tank to hold all the aggro? Is your blaster not capable of dealing w/a stray mob or three?

I *hate* it when I see a tank come chasing after some mob coming after a squishy of mine, knowing full well I can easily take care of it w/o any help. Sure, if he taunts it from range w/o moving from his clustered foes, more power to him (tho I'd rather he throw another attack), but any player should be able to manage his own aggro. If you can't don't blame the tank, or the controller, or the bubbler, or the "healorz"--look at your own gameplay first.

On a *good* team, esp a farm team, the tank's job should be to soak the alpha and set up a tight grouping for AoEs. The mobs should be cleared out in very short order and Taunt is almost never necessary. In fact, sitting & Taunting is usually an inefficient way of gathering aggro than your taunt aura + tab-switching/punchvoking.

I love tanker/blaster duos and play a lot of them from both ends. I don't care if they're 3-5x or 20x more effective than a tanker/tanker duo (or blaster/blaster duo), it's more than 2x and that's good enough for me. I *never* use Taunt in those situations, because it's never warranted. My blasters never need mobs taunted away either.

Mind you, Taunt is a very good tool, but frankly, I think most tanks would perform their jobs better if they didn't have it to lean on as a crutch, at least for the 1st 25 or so levels. Are there very specific situations where Taunt is needed/greatly desired? Sure, but they're more rare than the OP thinks. In fact, other than a low defender/controller MoSTF, I can't think of a situation blue-side that you absolutely *have* to have Taunt to get through easily.