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I understand where you're coming from with this. While I'm very much pro-Taunt, I can fully see the reasons why someone may not want to take it. I don't begrudge Tankers who don't pickup Taunt. I get annoyed when they don't have it and things don't go well. (Repeated deaths/wipes, aggro peeling everywhere, etc. A loose mob or two isn't going to ruin my fun.)|
Originally Posted by dave_p
Here's the thing though, we have a finite number of slots w/which to fill out powers, and if we take Taunt, we're not taking something else. One some of my builds, I take Taunt and can well afford to. Others are a lot tighter and taking Taunt would mean sacrificing... something. More offense, better mitigation, something. So is it worth the tradeoff? And to whom?
Of course the answer should be dependent on every individual situation, but many pro-Taunt arguers will say, "it's always worth the tradeoff," which I think is an incredibly arrogant stance to take. If you can do your job as a tank in 90~95% of the situations thrown at you w/o Taunt, what exactly is the problem? |
Let me contest the 90-95% figure for a moment. Let's assume, for the moment, that figure is correct; a Tank can handle 90-95% of the game well enough without it. Out of that 90-95%, how much of that could they have done better with it? By better I mean the team moving faster, less deaths (ie: using it to pull off a squishy, etc).
Now consider that aggro management is only going to get harder. Why? Well, with the proliferation of Brutes to Heroes (and Tanks to Villains), there are going to be far more clashes than exist now (Inv/Shield Scrappers, and Brutes on the LGTF/ITF).
As for the 5% to 10% that a Tanker can't do reliably, one of those is tanking AVs - which is a pretty classic Tanker role.
So, while a Tanker may be able to handle most situations well enough without it, I think the performance gap between having it an not having it is much larger than 5% to 10%. When the main (but not the only) goal of Tankers is holding aggro, skipping it is a pretty significant hit to that role. (Note: I have high standards for holding aggro.)
Tankers with taunt can still have team wipes etc but with less chance. Some people do like to throw themselves into harms way immediately. Tankers don't have to assess much in the way of harm for themselves. They know they can go in and bring back 17 out of a possible 27 and no more. It is quicker to do that without saying anything, so as not to slow down but you sometimes get them players who will be getting another 10 for themselves out of that 27 the tank could of got as they're up the tanks butt.
I could suggest that tankers without taunt may never have teams of people who create their own problems but when it comes to AVs being without taunt can create problems. I certainly don't like to need certain support before I move. Someone in a global channel asked for a empath, people joked "what kind of a team asks for an empath?" I figured, the same kind that asks for a kin or any one of the others.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Arcana, while in general, I agree with you, I do tend to think that it will vary from what you present here. Mostly because of how you've figured out your baseline of 2x the damage.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm hoping you just misread my post that the numbers are quoted from. I said the tanker-blaster combo would likely be 3 to 5 times faster than a single tanker alone. If you just add another *tanker* you should get 2 times faster kill speed if they just headed in opposite directions. If you believe that a tanker plus a blaster is actually not any faster than two tankers on average or requires a particularly bad tanker to make true, then you believe blasters deserve a *huge* damage buff, or tankers do way too much damage. On average, a blaster can expect to do at least 40% more damage than a tanker under equivalent endurance and damage slotting conditions simply due to the archetype modifier difference, so long as they can use their offense without worrying about aggro, and in a tanker-blaster duo it should be presumed that aggro is under control most of the time.
Basically, the number has to be higher than 2, because that's the case where the blaster does exactly the same amount of damage as the tanker, 1 to 1. But it gets difficult to make it go very much higher than 5, because that would be the case where the blaster was individually outdamaging the tanker 4 to 1. |
Basically, if you have one Tanker, he goes off in one direction, and kills everything that he finds. If you have 2 Tankers, each one goes off in a different direction, and kills everything he finds, at the same speed. Thus, 2 Tankers = 2x the speed of one Tanker, and we'll call this speed X).
However, with a Blaster, things will differ a bit. The Blaster usually stays with the Tanker. Thus, there is no splitting, and you're killing the same spawns at Y speed. If Y is equal to X, then the Tanker + Blaster combo will kill at speed X, equivalent to the 2 Tanker combo. However, if Y is less than X, then you're going slower than the two Tankers, leading to an outcome where the Blaster/Tanker duo goes at a slower pace than the 2 Tanker duo. If Y is greater than X, then the Blaster/Tanker duo will progress faster than the 2 Tanker combo.
I just don't think that you can say that the Blaster/Tanker combo will progress at least as fast as the 2 Tanker combo, if you give them different tactics (which they would likely display).
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"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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I can see the Blaster & Tanker combo going twice as fast as a solo Tanker, even with different tactics. A Blaster has a damage mod roughly 40% higher than a Tanker (ignoring Defiance / Aim + BU).|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
However, with a Blaster, things will differ a bit. The Blaster usually stays with the Tanker. Thus, there is no splitting, and you're killing the same spawns at Y speed. If Y is equal to X, then the Tanker + Blaster combo will kill at speed X, equivalent to the 2 Tanker combo. However, if Y is less than X, then you're going slower than the two Tankers, leading to an outcome where the Blaster/Tanker duo goes at a slower pace than the 2 Tanker duo. If Y is greater than X, then the Blaster/Tanker duo will progress faster than the 2 Tanker combo.
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Suppose the Blaster waits for the Tanker to deal 25% a spawn's hp before attacking. The remaining 75% will then be defeated at 2.4 times the normal rate. (It would take the same amount of time as the Tanker alone dealing 31.25% of their health: 75 / 2.4 = 31.25)
The total kill time would wind up taking 56.25% normal, or 177.777% faster than the Tanker solo.
Yes, that very simple example is lower than double. However, it doesn't factor in defiance, aim, buildup, attacking before 25% of mob hp is burned through, or that Blasters have more attacks (in general). It also doesn't consider the effect of Lieutenants and Bosses - I don't have hp charts in front of me, but 25% of a minon's health is only like, 10% of a Lieutenant's health and maybe 3% of a Boss's health. Their higher health pools give Blaster's higher damage output time to catch up.
All I have to say is I think it is hilarious that all of you are so contentious about how a tank is to be played, and I think it is even more hilarious when I can out-tank some people with either of my khelds.
I mean, why don't more tankers take Aid Other? What good is a couple of tankers holding the aggro cap if they can't heal you too?
>_>
<_<
*escape pod*
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In general, they won't be the same spawns because the game will scale up the spawns to be bigger. Even if you have the case where the tanker sets themselves to be +0/x8 a tanker/blaster duo is going to have more targets.|
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Arcana, while in general, I agree with you, I do tend to think that it will vary from what you present here. Mostly because of how you've figured out your baseline of 2x the damage.
Basically, if you have one Tanker, he goes off in one direction, and kills everything that he finds. If you have 2 Tankers, each one goes off in a different direction, and kills everything he finds, at the same speed. Thus, 2 Tankers = 2x the speed of one Tanker, and we'll call this speed X). However, with a Blaster, things will differ a bit. The Blaster usually stays with the Tanker. Thus, there is no splitting, and you're killing the same spawns at Y speed. If Y is equal to X, then the Tanker + Blaster combo will kill at speed X, equivalent to the 2 Tanker combo. However, if Y is less than X, then you're going slower than the two Tankers, leading to an outcome where the Blaster/Tanker duo goes at a slower pace than the 2 Tanker duo. If Y is greater than X, then the Blaster/Tanker duo will progress faster than the 2 Tanker combo. I just don't think that you can say that the Blaster/Tanker combo will progress at least as fast as the 2 Tanker combo, if you give them different tactics (which they would likely display). |
But as I mentioned previously, why I feel safe in making this statement is that if anyone else could prove me wrong, and demonstrate conclusively that on average (because again, individual anecdotes are just that) a blaster/tanker duo was slower than two tankers or alternatively less than twice as fast as a single tanker, that would be unambiguous proof that either tankers were overperforming solo or blasters were underperforming period. It would point to a broken situation that mandated a solution be formulated, no differently than the blaster datamined underperformance essentially forced the devs to take action back around I11. This theoretical possibility is really that bad of an occurance from a game-balance perspective.
So if this were true, and I think its extremely unlikely, then I'm all but challenging someone to prove it, because that proof would force the devs to take corrective action.
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Arcana,
While I do think that, on average, the Blaster will bring twice or more the kill speed to the Tanker, I also know that there are a good deal of exceptions to that.
A Fire/Fire Tanker is likely not going to have his kill speed doubled by adding an Energy/Ice Blaster to the team. A Shield/Elec isn't going to farm twice as fast if he brings along a Psy/Energy Blaster.
Largely, this is irrelevant, because people aren't going to be tracking time down to this fine of detail. But it is possible for a Blaster/Tanker combo to go under the 2x kill speed of the Tanker alone, and not be indicative of large-scale problems of either AT.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Quote:
That's why I said "on average." Its impossible to predict what a specific duo will experience, and trivially easy for a specific duo to engineer *any* kill speed difference they want, if they want. If they want the duo to be a hundred times faster, or 40% slower, they can always specifically *play* in a way that generates any result they want.
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Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Arcana,
While I do think that, on average, the Blaster will bring twice or more the kill speed to the Tanker, I also know that there are a good deal of exceptions to that. |
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This brings up an interesting thought experiment: What would produce the widest discrepancies, vs. narrowest, assuming at least decently optimized tactics? Also assuming 1 of the tanks has to be common bet. the pairs...
Widest:
Stone/Stone x Stone/Stone
vs
Stone/Stone x Fire/Fire (blaster)
Narrowest:
SD/Fire x SD/Fire
vs
SD/Fire x Psi/Ice (blaster)
One tank in common, because you're substituting a teammate, not the whole pair. I'm guessing the 1st pairing (of pairs) would produce a good 5~6x difference, depending on the types of mobs you were fighting--higher if mostly minions and massed soft targets, lower if ST damage was more valuable, like bosses. The 2nd pairing might struggle to break even, really.
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edit: or a pure meatshield build, then maybe.
Basically, the number has to be higher than 2, because that's the case where the blaster does exactly the same amount of damage as the tanker, 1 to 1. But it gets difficult to make it go very much higher than 5, because that would be the case where the blaster was individually outdamaging the tanker 4 to 1.
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