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Well I think people are going to have their own definitions of well played. If you can't tank Ghost Widow with a SO'd Firetank for my Trick Archer alone, then I'll probably suggest that you look into taunt a whole lot deeper.
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Originally Posted by Failsight
A well-played Tanker otherwise should really see the power Taunt as a luxury so that they don't have to work so hard moving all over and covering for trigger happy teammates.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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The mistake is yours. If you're playing AE, all expectations need to be dropped. Fast. Because if you don't you'll be in for a reality check.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Last night on my blaster I was teamed with 3 tankers. 2 had no taunt. The other had a 4 billion build (I saw the bonuses). They engaged 1 Samurai spawn, maybe 15 Samurai. I waited 10 seconds, lined up my cones, and started cleaning the critters off. I was pretty surprised when 3 peeled off and decided I was their biggest threat level.
Now I started a thread about taunting, and I got some good discussion. This is more of a complaint. I now feel like I have to interview tankers to see if they know what they are supposed to be doing. This is the equivalent of a dom deciding that they are just gonna do attack, frack controlling anything. I do not mind not having a tank on the team. I understand a lot of tankers really want a brute blueside. I get it, that's why most of my 50s are brutes, with just 2 50 tanks. But this really got to me. 3 tanks that could not hold agro, because not a single one hit taunt. Really frustrating because the stadard response from each of them is "I am doing damage" lol. Yeah, I am glad doms and trollers do not have this strange problem. Blue teams are set up to be stronger than the sum of their parts. It goes back to the Devs reading comics. I agree Tankers should do more damage, did they miss that bricks on most teams do tons of damage? But they did give tankers tools to save their teammates. And yes, that is their job. k, rant over. |
I was really trying to avoid posting in this thread but I have to address the whole damage slotting point.
Barring slotting sets your defensive powers generally require 2-3 slots each. More is a waste. That means even a tank that goes the meatshield route will easily have plenty of spare slots for his attacks by the early 30s at the latest.
With set boni and/or franken slotting there is no reason to leave out damage slotting.
The fact that damage dealt is part of the aggro equation makes doing so actively unwise.
Survivability is your primary so there is no shame in making that your first focus, but the point of the secondary is to do damage. The damage you contribute DOES make a difference in the teams kill speed. The foes you defeat also go a long way to mitigating incoming damage for both yourself and your teamates.
When considering near aggro cap scenarios it should also be remembered that a little burst aoe when eliminate a lot of minions and will ensure that the spawn is quickly reduced to a more managable size.
Taking It On the Chin I-16 Tanker Guide
Repeat Offenders
I happened to meet such a specimen on Guardian the other day. She was BA/something, had no Taunt, and never turned on a single toggle (though in her defense, the poor thing did say she was pretty new to the game). Forget about tanking, she had trouble just staying alive.
I like playing with players like these because my characters get to be the star of the show. I tanked for the team with my Fire/SD scrapper who does more damage than the rest of the team combined and has a 16-target Taunt called Fireball.
Bad players will find a way to play poorly, no matter the AT. Frankly, I can't imagine anything more boring for my tank than running AE farm missions. Good players who enjoy the challenge of tanking are probably looking for something a little more interesting to do than tank for AE farms. One possibility is that you just ran into a team with 3 people who had been PLing and never really learned how to tank.
However, I would venture a guess that, more often than not, it's the blaster driving the tank crazy and not the other way around. A lot of times in PuGs, you get scrappers and blasters or even controllers who refuse to let the tank even draw the aggro because they are not team players and they are more interested in trying to show everyone they can solo spawns or they are just playing sloppy and drawing aggro from nearby spawns or unleashing AoEs before the tanker even has the aggro. Unfortunately, the better you tank, sometimes the harder your job becomes. People get overconfident because they haven't been taking any damage, they think they are invincible and they rush off on their own or jump the gun on the tank and faceplant. It's the tank's job to keep the aggro off the squishies but squishies also have to be smart about their attacks and make sure the tank has the aggro. If you're a scrapper, you might be able to handle the aggro from the spawn you just set off, but you might get your teammates killed because you can't hold their aggro and keep it off the squishies. Also, a good general rule of thumb is "don't draw aggro that you can't handle". If I'm playing a blaster, I usually target through the tank so that I know I'm attacking enemies that are part of the tank's aggro. If stray guys come at you and you can't handle them, then just run/hop across the tank and they'll get swept up in his aggro.
By the way, I've seen plenty of horrible tanks too....tanks that couldn't hold aggro to save their lives. I ended up on a PuG tonight where it was a tank and the rest squishies. The tank just herded some guys up, taunted and stood there....didn't attack at all. People were dying...we couldn't kill them fast enough and this guy just stood there taunting and took it to the opposite extreme where he thought that's all he was there to do. A lot of it depends on the team. Sometimes the team tears through spawns and you don't need to even worry about attacking much. Sometimes the team is light on damage and you've got to do some damage while you're holding aggro.
I have seeen my share of good and bad tankers over the years and while I don't consider myself and "outstanding" Tanker I know how to do my "job" and do it as best I can. That said let's not place all the blame for mismanaged aggro control on the TANK. I have seen good tanks that had to be pulling their hair out at home because the team didn't know enough to let them do their job.
Case in point.. I was playing my Arch/Ice blaster and the tank announces I will herd to here! My eyes light up as I set my Rain of Arrows to hit that spot once the mob arrives. I watch as the tank moves through the next room collecting his herd and head back to the exact spot he said he'd use with a nice size mob trailing behind him. And then several team members rush forward and attack the mob before it gets to the tank. Aggo goes POOF and now we have a huge mob running around attacking everything it sees.
Joined another team where the leader, a Fire/Kin, insisted we HAD to have a tank before we could start. Then we got inside the mission and the tank may as well have gone out and picked up coffee and danish .. the Kin consistantly rushed ahead and attacked mob after mob until the tank finally got ticked off and just quit the team, Mission ends and what happens next? We spend another 5-10 minutes standing around while our glorious leader searches for .. A Tank.
I did the Defeat Infernal Mission and when we entered the portal chamber the tank announced. "I will taunt him and pull him away from the portal so the demons don't spawn." That sounded like a great strategy.. too bad the team didn't pay attention and attacked before Infernal got two steps away from that portal. After several deaths we did manage to bring down the portal, polish off the remaining demons and went on to defeat Infernal as well but I couldn't help wonder how many players would not have needed to rez if they had waited oh say 5 seconds? and let the tank PULL!
Oh don't get me wrong there ARE bad tankers out there. I did an ITF earlier and on mission 3 when we got to the Phallanx Control suddenly all He** breaks lose and I go flying half way across the map and land dead. I popped an awake and discovered the team desperately trying to take out the control device and battle Romulus and a pile of minons, lieutenants, and Cimeroran Traitor Bosses. The Tank's excuse was "Sorry I am used to playing on a more defense oriented team!" OH REALLY? ... I have lost track of how many ITFs I have been on and no one has ever tried to tackle that control device and an Arch Villain at the same time no matter what the team build was like. What fantasy world do you live in?
I am not saying you personally did any of these things wrong and chances are you did run into some very bad tanks. But far too often here I see posts like these and they quickly turn into "Oh the entire Arch Type sucks and there isn't one really GOOD in the game." The fact is there are Good tanks, Great Tanks and absolutely fantastic tanks out there... You are just not finding them.
There is a certain mindset you need to have to tank.. You are never going to do the damage a scrapper or a blaster does and you're team support consists of standing there like a punching bad while the team does the damage. Early game you really suck because not only don't you have a lot of damage but your defenses haven't increased enough yet and actually TRYING to tank will more often than not land you face down on the floor. There are players that should never even consider rolling a tank because they simply can't accept that fact. I can say the same about Defenders though as well.. You don't do as much damage as even a controller does and you need to be willing to stand back Heal, buff, debuff and/or hold ..depending on your powersets and be happy with the fact that you helped keep the team alive so THEY could do damage. There are a LOT of players out there that should, BY LAW, only be allowed to roll scrappers and blasters so they can just click and damage to their hearts content!
And YES Tankers do have MULTIPLE tools to protect the team (not JUST TAUNT). I have a SD/SS Tanker... Shield Charge taunts like crazy and so does Foot Stomp. when I am not herding and simply rush a mob I hit them with Shield Charge first, pi**ing everything off and knocking it down, then Foot stomp next effectively doing the same thing.. I have both slotted for Damage and taunt so I am not only getting their attention by the time they stand up the second time most of the minions are more than half way dead. Then I hit taunt as fast as it recharges and just continue with it and foot stomp until nothing is left standing. Will Power Tanks have Against all Odds which not only sends of an aura that taunts constantly it increases the defense of the tank based on the number of villains attacking. Oh and don't forget slotted or not every attack a Tank has includes at least a small amount of taunt so the more they hit things while standing their surrounded .. the more they aggro.
There are good and bad players using ever AT available.. sorry you found a few bad tanks but believe me there are good ones out there as well. And don't forget taunt does NOT last forever... I have a very dear friend that I consider an outstanding tanker. I have watched him herd entire rooms to one spot and hold aggro while we picked off everything. Same tank and I did the Stateman TF and on two seperate occasions as we battled Black Scorpion at some point taunt dropped and for whatever reason BS came over and gave me a love tap... By love tap I mean he ran over smacked me so hard I wound up in hospital and then.. ran right back over and started pounding on THE TANK. I was on my Emp Controlled and trying to stay close enough to heal my buddy making me the next closest target.. My own personal theory is the Black Scorpion likes my cute little EMP Troller and that was just his way of saying "Hi I think you look cute. Are you busy after the TF? I'd love to take you out to dinner and a movie." LOL
�We�re always the good guys. In D&D, we�re lawful good. In City of Heroes we�re the heroes. In Grand Theft Auto we pay the prostitutes promptly and never hit them with a bat.� � Leonard
�Those women are prostitutes? You said they were raising money for stem cell research!� � Sheldon
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I have helped some people missing important build components get to 50 but there was always something sweet and innocent about them. I can go off some people despite great builds just as easily as like people with odd ones.|
Originally Posted by Laevateinn
I happened to meet such a specimen on Guardian the other day. She was BA/something, had no Taunt, and never turned on a single toggle (though in her defense, the poor thing did say she was pretty new to the game). Forget about tanking, she had trouble just staying alive.
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Despite people leveling up through the old content (non AE) I expect people to be still learning at 50. In most cases I'd say they play the way they do because of who they've leveled with, some people might of respeced out a power that they had for 39 levels and never knew what good it was doing them. It also maybe that whatever it is one finds lacking in their build wasn't ever needed or that problems were resolved without people saying anything.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Long posts can be editing nightmares, what you say and what you meant to of said can come out mixed up. First half of your post, I've experienced too well, but luckily for me it is slightly cured by staying off a certain server.
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Originally Posted by Wicked_Wendy
Will Power Tanks have Against all Odds which not only sends of an aura that taunts constantly it increases the defense of the tank based on the number of villains attacking.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I aggree 100% with that. I'll always favor a playstyle were you can take care of yourself. All the ATs are good and don't need babysitting to stay alive, even the "squishy" blasters.|
Originally Posted by Rylas
For me it is a simple case of mind over matter. I do not mind if the blaster face plants because they do not matter.
Oh, was that rude? Maybe instead I should barge into the Blaster forums and tell them how I should probably interview each one that wants to join the team I am on. After all, if they don't want to consider the consequences of launching numerous AoEs into groups of mobs, I don't want to hear about the fact that they died. Would that come across as less obnoxious? Tanks aren't your babysitter. If you need one, you may have to ask why your play style requires supervision of another player. While a good tank will do what they can to keep you healthy, it's not their sole reason for being there. If you die, there's only one person to blame. You. Learn to use what tools are available to get out of harms way. Try running. Try carrying purples. Try anything. But don't expect someone out there to be worried about your every constant move 24/7. You aren't entitled to demand how others play. |
And nothing more insulting then a tanker (or def/troller or redside ATs) who dictate you how to play, cause he thinks he's responsible for you staying alive. If i die, it's my fault, if i live it's my fault.
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Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
You had me to here. I understand that a Tanker's "Taunt" ability if a very good tool for them to have, especially with a team in mind. All my tankers have it. However... if Taunt was meant to be an innate power, it would have been made an innate ability. It's not, so the choice is left to the individual (Same as Petless MMs... I don't get it personally, but it's their 15 bucks): If they don't want the taunt power, nothing says they have to take it.
The only thing anyone in this game is "supposed to be doing" is having fun. Everything else is negotiable. |
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
The problem is that some players pick the Tanker AT to conceptualize a powerhouse type character and they just like to team with people...not realizing that ATs actually have a role they are "supposed" to play on a team.
I think adding Taunt to the inherent would go along way in making players play Tanks well, no matter if they are new or a vet.
Think about it. Most players will pass over Taunt and never know what it actually can do.
If it's there as soon as you make your Tanker, then these new players and these bad tanks will be able to practice with Taunt from the get go...and will realize that Taunt is an extremely helpful tool from the get go...which will make them realize part of the Tankers role from the get go.
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I agree with you on this.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I'm afraid I have to completely disagree with this, in my opinion a team tanker's overriding responsibility is to protect the team first and foremost, THEN worry about dealing damage. I'll say a big HECK YES that a GOOD tanker IS there as a babysitter.
Yes, I do feel very strongly about this, and I have from the moment I rolled up my first tanker. If I'm playing a tank you better believe I'm doing my best to hold aggro and keep the rest of the team alive. A blaster who doesn't have to worry about aggro is much more effective at killing the mobs quickly; I'll handle the aggro while he handles the damage. Seems like a fair trade to me. There are limits of course, I can't do anything about the squishy who runs the opposite way from the group into another room of baddies but anyone who's with the rest of the team can count on me doing my best to keep them alive, that's what I'm there for. If I'm playing a squishy then that's the kind of tanker I want on my team. I've no use for a "tank" who refuses to at least try holding aggro. |
Have you ever played the Superman Returns game based off the movie of the same name?
Well, in that game, Superman cannot die...the only way to lose is for the city to take too much damage.
That's exactly how I play my Tank. I build up to where I don't have to worry about my health...and the only way I can "lose" is if my teammates take too much damage.
Basically...letting someone else die is equal to me dying.
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If you see a tank just standing there doing nothing, keep in mind that there's a chance there's nothing they can do. In the process of drawing aggro, tanks draw a lot of mez as well. As an example, on a recent ITF, my stone tank tended to be sitting between -200% and -400% recharge penalty, meaning that even my fastest-charging power was on a 10-second recharge; taunt was close to 40 seconds, and my AoEs were at 40 and 80 seconds.
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Originally Posted by PBAtty
By the way, I've seen plenty of horrible tanks too....tanks that couldn't hold aggro to save their lives. I ended up on a PuG tonight where it was a tank and the rest squishies. The tank just herded some guys up, taunted and stood there....didn't attack at all. People were dying...we couldn't kill them fast enough and this guy just stood there taunting and took it to the opposite extreme where he thought that's all he was there to do.
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...which is what they are, and hardly a problem|
Originally Posted by Vitality
The problem is that some players pick the Tanker AT to conceptualize a powerhouse type character
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Originally Posted by Vitality
and they just like to team with people...
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Originally Posted by Vitality
not realizing that ATs actually have a role they are "supposed" to play on a team.
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However, I don't recall anywhere is saying that a Tanker's primary role is so soak up huge amounts of damage for *you.*
If I take "taunt" as a power choice, that gives me the *choice* of being the "("I'll keep these guys busy,,, you get the hostage out!" hero-guy and/or the "boy, it's a good thing I was here, huh little buddy?" hero-guy. . If I don't that simply makes me the "Is that all you got?" type of hero guy. Again, it's all how I see my charatcer as "my" being the function word.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
I think adding Taunt to the inherent would go along way in making players play Tanks well, no matter if they are new or a vet.
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The concept of the AT's is not to define your role on a team, but help you create a character a bit more to your liking, and to simplify charatcer creation a bit for the developers by utilizing well know comic book "archetypes" (see what I did there? 8D) to narrow the choices into a more manageable (and marketable) subsets. It has nothing to do with team construction, with the exception that eventually most comic-book super-teams realize that a balance of abilities is a good thing.
And look at it another way. I'm suddenly forced to build my Tanker to be the enemy-magnet, that means the my defensive abilities also need to be enhanced to soak and survive wave after wave to balance it out. Since I now draw all the bad-guys to me, I can survive their assaults, and can eventually take them out... what exactly do I need "you" (meaning non-tankers) for.
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Originally Posted by Vitality
Think about it. Most players will pass over Taunt and never know what it actually can do. If it's there as soon as you make your Tanker, then these new players and these bad tanks will be able to practice with Taunt from the get go...and will realize that Taunt is an extremely helpful tool from the get go
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1) I think most players try out all their powers at some time or another, why else would we have respecs? I think it's a big assumption on your part that most Tankers will skip "Taunt" and more so that they so because don't "understand" what the power can do. It very plane what the power will do for a Tanker... it will draw enemies to them and away from other players. I thinkk most people can read
Most of the people I know that did skip it, did it for conceptual reasons... they didn't see, for whatever reason their character doing that. It's Role-Playing, which is what the game's all about.
2) What constitutes a "Bad" Tank is your personal opinion based on how you think a tanker should be acting to be most useful to *you." It's not considering the other player and I pray its not something that you presenting to a new player as "part of the game."
3) Taunt is helpful to who? It's not very helpful to me as a Tanker... it means I get punched more, and harder, and by a lot more people. It's akin to wearing a "NASCAR Sucks" tee-shirt to a Daytona 500 block party. I hope you like running... I don't (I have a "Dwarven" physique.)
Humor aside, taunt *can* help out a team. It can also "hurt" a team as well, with even the most surgical uses having unexpected (and often overwhelming) results.
I personally use it very discriminantly, like when the blaster just AOE-Agroed an entire room of Warriors or I need to draw away a mob so someone can get a hostage out. I don't spam it to keep the party safe... I expect you know enough to run or yell for help if you need it. (And I might also let the group of Warriors beat the crap out of you so you learn not to pull damn-fool stunt like that again, but I'm a mean bastich 8D)
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Originally Posted by Vitality
...which will make them realize part of the Tankers role from the get go.
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And even then, it's hardly from the get go. The actual "Taunt" power is not even in the Primary Power Sets... it's part of your *secondary* Powers as a Tanker, and then not even available to you until at least 10th level (I think). And if we consider Secondary Abilities to be worth "two thirds" of Primary ones, then Taunt only represents about 5% of the capabilities that a Tanker can have, with many tertiary powers giving more benefit to a team than taunt.
Heck, mechanics-wise it's considered more important to a Brute, than a Tanker... after all at least is in his Primary sets, and he gets a direct benefit from it's use.
No... for a Tanker, Taunt is simply another choice you have with your character as you build it and not a requirement anymore than a "Buffing" power is to a Corr, or "Blasting" is to a Defender. It's a secondary power and shouldn't be a "primary" responsibility. If you're face-planting on a team, don't blame the tank (or any archetype for that matter) simply because he's not using "power x..." blame yourself because you overstepped your capabilities.
It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets
... Hit it ...
... Hit it ...
I fall into the "competent" tank category. I can hold agro reasonably well, and I know what my job is. But I'm a natural scrapper player, so tanking just doesn't come as intuitively to me.
I can scrap like nobody's business, but I can be overwhelmed if I'm trying to tank on a fast moving team. I know my weak points as a player, one of them is that I am not an especially good tanker. I'm also a HORRIBLE Empathy/Thermal/PainDom player, I don't even play those sets anymore because I suck so bad at it.
Sadly, the two best tanks I've EVER teamed with no longer play 
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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My point, proved by the OP and some others, is that Tankers and Defenders(although I don't know too much about them) are the only ATs to get flak for not choosing a single power.
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Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
...which is what they are, and hardly a problem
... which is the point of MMORPGs, $15 a month + internet costs is an awful lot to play by yourself... "Role" in this context is an ugly word, "Supposed to" makes it even uglier. I could be overly simple and say the only "role" anyone has is as a Hero or Villain, but I won't. If you wan to get pickey, as illustrated by the construction of the tanker AT, it's primary role is so soak up huge amounts of damage. However, I don't recall anywhere is saying that a Tanker's primary role is so soak up huge amounts of damage for *you.* If I take "taunt" as a power choice, that gives me the *choice* of being the "("I'll keep these guys busy,,, you get the hostage out!" hero-guy and/or the "boy, it's a good thing I was here, huh little buddy?" hero-guy. . If I don't that simply makes me the "Is that all you got?" type of hero guy. Again, it's all how I see my charatcer as "my" being the function word. Many of the powers do have some small innate taunt, mostly to simulate the "Get the Big Guy" mentality of enemies. But "forcing" tanks to pulls the brunt of the damage is another thing all together. It's the same as saying "give all defenders "heal" or "no blaster should have melee powers." You might like that idea, but I very much doubt a lot of Tanker players would. The concept of the AT's is not to define your role on a team, but help you create a character a bit more to your liking, and to simplify charatcer creation a bit for the developers by utilizing well know comic book "archetypes" (see what I did there? 8D) to narrow the choices into a more manageable (and marketable) subsets. It has nothing to do with team construction, with the exception that eventually most comic-book super-teams realize that a balance of abilities is a good thing. And look at it another way. I'm suddenly forced to build my Tanker to be the enemy-magnet, that means the my defensive abilities also need to be enhanced to soak and survive wave after wave to balance it out. Since I now draw all the bad-guys to me, I can survive their assaults, and can eventually take them out... what exactly do I need "you" (meaning non-tankers) for. Hmmmm... list time 1) I think most players try out all their powers at some time or another, why else would we have respecs? I think it's a big assumption on your part that most Tankers will skip "Taunt" and more so that they so because don't "understand" what the power can do. It very plane what the power will do for a Tanker... it will draw enemies to them and away from other players. I thinkk most people can read Most of the people I know that did skip it, did it for conceptual reasons... they didn't see, for whatever reason their character doing that. It's Role-Playing, which is what the game's all about. 2) What constitutes a "Bad" Tank is your personal opinion based on how you think a tanker should be acting to be most useful to *you." It's not considering the other player and I pray its not something that you presenting to a new player as "part of the game." 3) Taunt is helpful to who? It's not very helpful to me as a Tanker... it means I get punched more, and harder, and by a lot more people. It's akin to wearing a "NASCAR Sucks" tee-shirt to a Daytona 500 block party. I hope you like running... I don't (I have a "Dwarven" physique.) Humor aside, taunt *can* help out a team. It can also "hurt" a team as well, with even the most surgical uses having unexpected (and often overwhelming) results. I personally use it very discriminantly, like when the blaster just AOE-Agroed an entire room of Warriors or I need to draw away a mob so someone can get a hostage out. I don't spam it to keep the party safe... I expect you know enough to run or yell for help if you need it. (And I might also let the group of Warriors beat the crap out of you so you learn not to pull damn-fool stunt like that again, but I'm a mean bastich 8D) Nope... A Tankers role is to take a punch well, not be a meat shield for you, any more than a Emp Defender's role is to be a life-support system for a Tanker (and personally, I hope the Emps healing the squishies first, and not worrying about me so much... we're supposed to be able to handle hits well, and if I go down, then I bit off more than I can chew) or a Kin Controller's job is to keep feeding Speed Boost to you. It's an part of what a tanker can "choose" to do And even then, it's hardly from the get go. The actual "Taunt" power is not even in the Primary Power Sets... it's part of your *secondary* Powers as a Tanker, and then not even available to you until at least 10th level (I think). And if we consider Secondary Abilities to be worth "two thirds" of Primary ones, then Taunt only represents about 5% of the capabilities that a Tanker can have, with many tertiary powers giving more benefit to a team than taunt. Heck, mechanics-wise it's considered more important to a Brute, than a Tanker... after all at least is in his Primary sets, and he gets a direct benefit from it's use. No... for a Tanker, Taunt is simply another choice you have with your character as you build it and not a requirement anymore than a "Buffing" power is to a Corr, or "Blasting" is to a Defender. It's a secondary power and shouldn't be a "primary" responsibility. If you're face-planting on a team, don't blame the tank (or any archetype for that matter) simply because he's not using "power x..." blame yourself because you overstepped your capabilities. |
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Untrue. |
Originally Posted by Vitality
My point, proved by the OP and some others, is that Tankers and Defenders(although I don't know too much about them) are the only ATs to get flak for not choosing a single power.
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I've seen controllers yelled at for not taking single target holds and some buffs/debuffs from their secondary.
I've seen dominators yelled at for not taking single target holds, AoE holds and a AoE sleep.
I've seen brutes chastized for not taking Taunt. I've seen them chastized for TAKING Taunt.
I've Corruptors shouted at for not taking certain buffs (mainly shields) and for not blasting enough.
I've seen Peacebringers kicked for using their powers that produce any KB.
et al.
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What Clouded said.|
Originally Posted by Vitality
My point, proved by the OP and some others, is that Tankers and Defenders(although I don't know too much about them) are the only ATs to get flak for not choosing a single power.
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Also, Scrapper and Stalkers will get yelled at if they skip there mezz protection toggle.
VEATs have it just as bad as tanker with taunt, if they skip TT:maneuvers. People were almost asking for the accounts of those who skipped it to be deleted in the few topics i've seen.
MMs too will get yelled at for skipping some buffs.
The only "safe" AT is blasters (and khelds, cause lots of people don't know much about it) cause it doesn't have controll, support or personnal protection power sets. Though you'd probably get yelled at if you skip blaze on your fire/ blaster. =P
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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Bolded for emphasis.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I've seen brutes chastized for NOT TAKING Taunt. I've seen them chastized for TAKING Taunt.
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This right here. This is what the OP (and many others) need to understand. For every person out there who complains about what you don't have, there's going to be someone else who complains if you do. What you want a tanker to do for you isn't what everybody wants the tanker to do for them.
You can't please them all, so what makes your opinion better?
@Rylas
Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.
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As the others have already pointed out, this is untrue. Everyone has their opinion of the perfect (fill in the blank).|
Originally Posted by Vitality
My point, proved by the OP and some others, is that Tankers and Defenders(although I don't know too much about them) are the only ATs to get flak for not choosing a single power.
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In any case, nothing disproves my point that a Tanker is neither right or wrong by taking or not taking "Taunt." It's a personal choice, one of many given to us by the Devs On High, and no one should be labeled as "bad tanker" simply because they choose differently than you would.
It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets
... Hit it ...
... Hit it ...
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I think that the real issue isn’t that the tanks in this instance didn’t have taunt or weren’t effective at holding agro; its that the lack of communication about the deviation from expected roles in a team dynamic. The expected role of a tank is to capture and hold agro. While this is not the only way to play the archetype it is the universally assumed play-style. When playing in a team dynamic, a good (skilled) player who deviates from the expected role communicates to teammates what to expect. |
Originally Posted by Rylas
This right here. This is what the OP (and many others) need to understand. For every person out there who complains about what you don't have, there's going to be someone else who complains if you do. What you want a tanker to do for you isn't what everybody wants the tanker to do for them. You can't please them all, so what makes your opinion better? |
The reasons for this lack of communication in this case may be that the players in question don’t understand the expected roles. If you don’t understand that generally speaking tanks are assumed to be there to take the punch then abilities that help you do that aren’t going to be your priority. You don’t have to take taunt to manage agro and you can focus on your attacks instead of defenses. However doing these things makes you less able to fulfill your expected role. The mobs aren’t surprised they could care less, its your fellow players that have to deal with the unexpected circumstances.
I agree that no one should be able to tell you how to play. No one should force you into being a good player either. Just know that if you are playing in a team and for some reason have built a character to play contrary to its expected role you either alert your teammates to that fact or you are a bad player (regardless of your toon’s capabilities or archetype.)
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Sorry, but that's BS.|
Originally Posted by hewhorocks
I think that the real issue isnt that the tanks in this instance didnt have taunt or werent effective at holding agro; its that the lack of communication about the deviation from expected roles in a team dynamic. The expected role of a tank is to capture and hold agro. While this is not the only way to play the archetype it is the universally assumed play-style. When playing in a team dynamic, a good (skilled) player who deviates from the expected role communicates to teammates what to expect.
The reasons for this lack of communication in this case may be that the players in question dont understand the expected roles. If you dont understand that generally speaking tanks are assumed to be there to take the punch then abilities that help you do that arent going to be your priority. You dont have to take taunt to manage agro and you can focus on your attacks instead of defenses. However doing these things makes you less able to fulfill your expected role. The mobs arent surprised they could care less, its your fellow players that have to deal with the unexpected circumstances. I agree that no one should be able to tell you how to play. No one should force you into being a good player either. Just know that if you are playing in a team and for some reason have built a character to play contrary to its expected role you either alert your teammates to that fact or you are a bad player (regardless of your toons capabilities or archetype.) |
A lot of people expect a defender to just "heal". I think there's even more players that think that way then those who know defenders offer a lot more. So by your logic, a FF or TA or devices ,etc defender should tell everytime he joins a team : "Guys, by the way, i can't heal."
Also, for corrs, what's the universaly assumed play-style? Support first or attacking first? Since it's seems to be 50-50, any corruptor should always yell there playstyle at the beginning?
And what about the different servers? If a server have a huge focus on PvP (don't remember wich one), maybe for them, it's totally normal to skip things that doesn't help in PvP. And in Virtue Roleplay and concept first? I have a hard time imagining someone saying: "Sorry guys, i just wanted to make an ill/rad cause they are uber, i don't have any concept or background!"
The point is, there's so many differant point of view, you can't expect people to know what is the "universaly assumed" play-style. At least, not untill the devs force all of us to participate in a huge poll, and publish the results.
If a team leader expect someone to fill a specific role, he should ask about it. It's not my job to explain my build from A to Z, just to make sure i fit the role he wants me to play. That's not really different then a leader mentionning it's going to be a speed run TF, a farm or a Master run.
"It's a scrapper. If he can't handle it, no one can." -BrandX
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I've a huge disagreement there.|
Originally Posted by FireWyvern
Sorry, but that's BS.
A lot of people expect a defender to just "heal". I think there's even more players that think that way then those who know defenders offer a lot more. So by your logic, a FF or TA or devices ,etc defender should tell everytime he joins a team : "Guys, by the way, i can't heal." Also, for corrs, what's the universaly assumed play-style? Support first or attacking first? Since it's seems to be 50-50, any corruptor should always yell there playstyle at the beginning? And what about the different servers? If a server have a huge focus on PvP (don't remember wich one), maybe for them, it's totally normal to skip things that doesn't help in PvP. And in Virtue Roleplay and concept first? I have a hard time imagining someone saying: "Sorry guys, i just wanted to make an ill/rad cause they are uber, i don't have any concept or background!" The point is, there's so many differant point of view, you can't expect people to know what is the "universaly assumed" play-style. At least, not untill the devs force all of us to participate in a huge poll, and publish the results. If a team leader expect someone to fill a specific role, he should ask about it. It's not my job to explain my build from A to Z, just to make sure i fit the role he wants me to play. That's not really different then a leader mentionning it's going to be a speed run TF, a farm or a Master run. |
A defender is assumed to support the team and contribute damage, regardless of his powersets.
A controller is assumed to contribute both control and support.
A blaster or scrapper are assumed to contribute damage.
And a tanker is expected to take alphas and hold aggro.
Build decisions don't come into play here as much... as long as your effective
Those are the minimum benchmarks I will accept in any AT I invite to a team... if I'm looking for damage I look for Scrappers and Blasters... or large numbers of controllers to stack controls/debuffs/buffs. If I'm looking for control I look for Controllers. And if I'm looking for aggro management I look for a tank. I don't care about concept, if a tanker can't or won't manage aggro then give me a scrapper... at least he'll contribute more damage.
Like many of you I've seen the good, bad and ugly of tanker players... the good ones you treasure and the bad ones you never want to team with again. Because tankers are my favorite AT I'm very critical of all tanker players, even myself when I have an off day. If a tank isn't at least TRYING to hold aggro then I have no use for them. I can deal with inexperience; everyone has to learn sometime and I'll be happy to help anyone who's trying. Not even trying to manage aggro as a tank is, in my opinion, absolutely unacceptable behavior in any tanker player.
Bottom line, if you aren't willing to at least try to tank then either don't roll a tanker or play solo.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Cool so far, and then...|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
A defender is assumed to support the team and contribute damage, regardless of his powersets. A controller is assumed to contribute both control and support. A blaster or scrapper are assumed to contribute damage. |
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
And a tanker is expected to take alphas and hold aggro.
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You're more than welcome to limit a team you're forming to your "specifications," and although I think that's fairly anti-social and elitist, it's your $15 and your right to do so. However, unless it's *your* character, you don't have the right to dictate how it's built/played/slotted.
Personally. I'll choose the player that wants to have fun over the "perfect" build anytime.
But that's just me.
(PS: Just as an afterthought, I wish they'd give us back the system where we could hide our power sets and choices again. I think that would go a long way to reducing the need for resumes for teams.
))
It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets
... Hit it ...
... Hit it ...
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I realize that you're likely engaging in a bit of hyperbole to make a point, but in all honesty this quote is EXACTLY why I love to play tankers.
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Originally Posted by Jet_Boy
Since I now draw all the bad-guys to me, I can survive their assaults, and can eventually take them out... what exactly do I need "you" (meaning non-tankers) for.
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Finally, the only Tanker primaries I usually suggest to take Taunt are Stone and Willpower, due to lack of mobility and lack of strong taunt aura respectively. A well-played Tanker otherwise should really see the power Taunt as a luxury so that they don't have to work so hard moving all over and covering for trigger happy teammates.