So, Cysts are 'underpowered'?
By
3dent,
Posted on: 2010-03-06 07:02 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Wait, someone said that Cysts were underpowered???
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Whenever I try and find out just why the damn things are so horrible, I get swamped with cries of 'Oh, they nerfed them and Quants ages ago' or, on a bad day 'lrn to Cyst lol'.|
Originally Posted by NarfMann
Wait, someone said that Cysts were underpowered???
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Ok, maybe not quite so bad (I've never heard the 2nd one
)But it always seems to be our fault as a team. The fact that, regardless of team or makeup, we always seem to faceplant nearly instantly against these things, seems to be irrelevant. Which bugs me, surprisingly enough.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I have.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Ok, maybe not quite so bad (I've never heard the 2nd one
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Not in those words, of course, but I have seem folks say that if a team can't handle a sudden jump in difficulty an order of magnitude higher than what they were set to, then they clearly don't know how to play City of Heroes.
Of course, it gets worse when it turns out the team was riding the challenge edge already, enjoying a bit of risk to their game when they get hit with it. The worst part is seeing people say: "well, if the cyst is such a problem, you shouldn't run at that difficulty."
Really? If a team runs with a Kheld, they should be set to candy *** difficulty, just to make sure that the cysts that may or may not show up are set to the difficulty they were looking to enjoy for the entire map without the squid present?
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
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Summed it up perfectly, really.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
I have.
Not in those words, of course, but I have seem folks say that if a team can't handle a sudden jump in difficulty an order of magnitude higher than what they were set to, then they clearly don't know how to play City of Heroes. Of course, it gets worse when it turns out the team was riding the challenge edge already, enjoying a bit of risk to their game when they get hit with it. The worst part is seeing people say: "well, if the cyst is such a problem, you shouldn't run at that difficulty." Really? If a team runs with a Kheld, they should be set to candy *** difficulty, just to make sure that the cysts that may or may not show up are set to the difficulty they were looking to enjoy for the entire map without the squid present? |
It's an unasked for difficulty change, one that really, in my opinion, contributes to whatever taboo there is about the Kheldian ATs.
Yes, we were running purples and reds. Why? Because we were capable of doing so. Yes, some people faceplanted a few times. I did a few times, when the Tuatha Bosses decided it was time to break out the good old homing trees. Thats all part and parcel of that difficulty, though. The Cyst spawn, however, broke that difficulty setting, to the point of multiple team wipes.
I understand some people enjoy that sort of 'ohgod' challenge. However, it should NOT be one forced on people who would rather not run at, as M1 said it, 'candy *** difficulty', simply because there is a Kheldian on the team.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Well, if I may play devil's advocate for a sec, you kinda did ask for the change when you sent that invite. Any team in your position has three choices:|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
It's an unasked for difficulty change
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1) Keep at the current settings, and accept that they WILL get stomped hard when the Cyst shows up.
2) Drop the difficulty and hope a Cyst shows up for that one fight that's at the difficulty the team was looking for.
3) Don't invite the Squid.
They just need to figure out which one is the least unappealing.
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Further proof, that sometimes, no matter how good the team can be, things can go south!
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The BrandX Collection
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I wasn't the team leader |
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
Well, if I may play devil's advocate for a sec, you kinda did ask for the change when you sent that invite. Any team in your position has three choices:
1) Keep at the current settings, and accept that they WILL get stomped hard when the Cyst shows up. 2) Drop the difficulty and hope a Cyst shows up for that one fight that's at the difficulty the team was looking for. 3) Don't invite the Squid. They just need to figure out which one is the least unappealing. |
Also, the fact option 3 at all is kind of...well..sad? The Devs said the reason they were lowering the level for EATs was because they didnt want them to be locked out to the wider player base.
So when it comes to there being more Kheldians around, will people simply not invite them?
"We don't want Kheldians, we get Cysts!"
I really hope not...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I know people are busy with 2XP right now, but hasn't anyone put a "lrn2ply" tag on this thread yet?
@Golden Girl
City of Heroes comics and artwork
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Well cysts aren't particularly pleasant to have. Sometimes they can be painful and they're just gross bulging under the skin like t--|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I wasn't the team leader
Also, the fact option 3 at all is kind of...well..sad? The Devs said the reason they were lowering the level for EATs was because they didnt want them to be locked out to the wider player base. So when it comes to there being more Kheldians around, will people simply not invite them? "We don't want Kheldians, we get Cysts!" I really hope not... |
Oh. You mean the other Cysts.
Yeah, I generally like any sort of spawn that summons a bunch of other critters. It makes the situation far more difficult than you were hoping.
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So what you're asking for seems to be a dynamically adaptive difficulty system that specifically monitors what the players feel they're capable of, and gives them that.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Summed it up perfectly, really.
It's an unasked for difficulty change, one that really, in my opinion, contributes to whatever taboo there is about the Kheldian ATs. Yes, we were running purples and reds. Why? Because we were capable of doing so. Yes, some people faceplanted a few times. I did a few times, when the Tuatha Bosses decided it was time to break out the good old homing trees. Thats all part and parcel of that difficulty, though. The Cyst spawn, however, broke that difficulty setting, to the point of multiple team wipes. I understand some people enjoy that sort of 'ohgod' challenge. However, it should NOT be one forced on people who would rather not run at, as M1 said it, 'candy *** difficulty', simply because there is a Kheldian on the team. |
Sorry, I know of no game that is that good at mind reading. I don't think you can blame the dev team for being bad coders when you set such an unrealistic standard.
Besides, a game that only gives me as much as I can handle all the time with no surprises doesn't sound very fun to me.
Fact: There are teams out there that can handle a cyst at this setting
Fact: The advanced difficulty settings are specifically stated to be "use at your own risk"
Fact: Kheldians spawn cysts. It's common knowledge. No one's saying not taking one on your team is necessary, but don't act shocked when you're asked to pay the price of having one there.
I really don't buy that this bump in difficulty was "unasked for" That's a pantload.
"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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A model for what? A sculpture? A paperweight? The cysts in the ITF are inanimate objects that are no more threatening than the superadine crates you have to destroy in the Hollows missions. The cysts in the ITF do nothing.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Seriously. The Cysts on the ITF are working better. Use them as a model on how to do things,
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What's REALLY cool in the ITF is when you get a 'real' cyst along with a neutered one and don't realize it until the fluffies start popping up.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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(shrug) I've done a MoSTF with a squid on the team.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
So when it comes to there being more Kheldians around, will people simply not invite them?
"We don't want Kheldians, we get Cysts!" I really hope not... |
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
My first cyst was in the sewers, that was fun on lowbies
A badge for killing them should make khleds welcome on teams.
I don't suffer from altitis, I enjoy every minute of it.
Thank you Devs & Community people for a great game.
So sad to be ending ):
You are combat level 29 (as seen in the top right level bar) and the cyst is level 32. You are complaining that an spawn in a mission set to +3 is too hard -- it SHOULD be. If it's too much, lower your difficulty.
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Haven't wiped on a cyst in ages, but then I usually play scrappers who are set to auto-target them when I hit tab, and who can survive long enough to take them down solo if necessary, which on a clueless team it might be.
Tonight I was playing a defender but there was a scrapper on the team who knew to target these things first, and I targeted through him. I think both times they came up, we were the only two people actually pounding on the cyst, but that was enough to take it down.
Mind you, one of those two times we had run straight into a CoT prison room. We did wind up with a teamwipe in that situation, but it was after the cyst and fluffies were dead and it would have happened anyway given how we aggro'd more than half the room. Most of the time I'm on a team that runs into that room, bad things happen. The cyst was just an extra helping of doom on top of an already near-impossible situation.
And when we got everyone out and healed, we went back and cleared the room anyway. ^_^
If the whole team targets the cyst right away, not a problem. If you let it spawn a lot of fluffies first, big problem. If it's +3 to most of the time as well... then yeah, it's a mess. But if I'm on your team that won't happen. If it does, I take the blame. ^_^
I really like the challenge they represent. I didn't like it when they removed the difficulty on voids and quants, they're hardly a threat to a kheld these days at all. But cysts, you have to be prepared to target them immediately and kill 'em before they can build up steam. That's fun.
my lil RWZ Challenge vid
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No, he's not complaining that the mission set to +3 is too hard, the rest of the mission was exactly the difficulty that they wanted, challenging, without being futile debt farming.|
Originally Posted by Leandro
You are combat level 29 (as seen in the top right level bar) and the cyst is level 32. You are complaining that an spawn in a mission set to +3 is too hard -- it SHOULD be. If it's too much, lower your difficulty.
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The complaint is that the cyst was significantly harder than the rest of the mission, to the point where the team wiped several times taking down the Cyst. The problem is that the team is left with the three options I listed above; ban Kheldians from joining the team, play much lower than their preferred settings in case a Cyst spawns, or play at the preferred settings knowing that the team-wiping cyst is imminent.
Given these choices, which would you suggest?
The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.
Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?
A: You crash into another one.
Another option is to stick with 7 members at most (and x7 at most), Cysts only spawn with 8 (or x8) IIRC.
Most obvious option would be to play competently or pop insps and kill the cyst, though.
In this very map the OP posted, it can be rough because you're escorting Waylon out and cysts can pop as part of an ambush group (in which case they start spawning immediately), there's not much room to move, and Tuathas aren't lightweight either - blindly rushing in will most likely get your debuffed by quicksand while nictus AOEs make short work of you. Still, even that situation can be handled by playing carefully or popping insps.
That's the absolute worst case scenario and nerfing cysts because of that would be stupid. At most, set a check so cysts don't spawn on ambushes (I don't condone that either, just saying ; it'd be very stupid to nerf normal, immobile cysts which are much easier to handle).
I certainly don't think Cysts are overpowered. They're definitely not an insurmountable obstacle, but they do take some preparation, planning, and foresight. Thus, they're certainly not underpowered.
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Beat me to it, MI.|
Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms
No, he's not complaining that the mission set to +3 is too hard, the rest of the mission was exactly the difficulty that they wanted, challenging, without being futile debt farming.
The complaint is that the cyst was significantly harder than the rest of the mission, to the point where the team wiped several times taking down the Cyst. The problem is that the team is left with the three options I listed above; ban Kheldians from joining the team, play much lower than their preferred settings in case a Cyst spawns, or play at the preferred settings knowing that the team-wiping cyst is imminent. Given these choices, which would you suggest? |
We were coping just fine with +3. It was 'just right', not too easy, but not massacre level hard.
The Cyst was all it took to push it straight into faceplant levels. But, apparently, it was the fault of the team? I don't buy it, frankly.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Here's the point of contention. We're pointing out that your team could have handled it better, evidenced by the fact that it has been done by others. You seem to think that it was impossible for you to succeed in the first place, and that's the fault of the game. We're not blaming your team. We're saying it is beatable, and not an unexpected or undue amount of challenge based on your team choices and settings.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The Cyst was all it took to push it straight into faceplant levels. But, apparently, it was the fault of the team? I don't buy it, frankly.
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"Null is as much an argument "for removing the cottage rule" as the moon being round is for buying tennis shoes." -Memphis Bill
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My way of handling such a situation is: "everybody go buy four lucks and four sturdies. We'll hit all the inspirations at once and head straight for the crystal on my signal"; followed by a short countdown to sync everybody jumping in.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The Cyst was all it took to push it straight into faceplant levels. But, apparently, it was the fault of the team? I don't buy it, frankly.
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Of course, someone will say "that takes too long!", just remind them that it's faster than faceplanting over and over again. If they say they can't find the cyst, /targetname cyst will take care of the problem.
I actually remember a similar situation a couple of years ago. I was in The Hollows and a cyst spawned on a lowbie team, just like that. A bazillion nictus around it. Two people even quit the team at the teamwipe, thinking it was an impossible task. The four people that were left ate our inspirations and killed the cyst, and all the nictus promptly disappeared. Then we invited the two people who quit back in, and they were stunned that we'd pulled it off.
Alternatively, you could have resetted the mission. Cyst wouldn't have spawned in the exact same place and with that many nictus around it.
tl;dr: it wasn't "the fault of the team", it was a lack of strategy.
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This is what 3700 heroes in a single zone looks like.
Thanks to @EnsonsDeath for the GVE code that made me VIP again!
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First, I know of no threads lately saying that cysts were underpowered or overpowered. strange idea.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Multiple teamwipes beg to differ.
That is the sort of sight you can expect to see on a full team. And no, there was no way to avoid this. We came down the tunnel, and there was the mother of all fluffy swarms jsut waiting for us. It was actually impossible to see the cyst on first glance. We had to have someone with stealth toggle through to actually select the damn thing. |
I also have had maybe one team wipe in the last year from cysts.
Be careful to notice what is in the next spawn before diving in. Get cysts first when possible...
I know that wasn't possible this time.
So I offer the following bind:
/bind TAB "target_enemy_next$$target_custom_next enemy alive quantum$$target_custom_next enemy alive void$$target_custom_next enemy alive cyst"
I run this on all my alts, Kheldian or not.
The above bind lets TAB run as normal, untill you are looking at a spawn with one of those enemies in it.
Normally, TAB is acting as TAB "target_enemy_next"
If you only want to worry about cysts, you could run /bind TAB "target_enemy_next$$target_custom_next enemy alive cyst"
(You can add other targets you might worry about, like Sappers, etc.)
The main effect here, is that, even if you accidentally run into a room like that, and tap TAB one or more times, you are there, with the cyst as your target.
Immediately start attacking, and your odds go way up that there is not going to be a team wipe, at least not several of them
Good luck!
.
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Yeah, I see the complaining in the team window.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Beat me to it, MI.
We were coping just fine with +3. It was 'just right', not too easy, but not massacre level hard. The Cyst was all it took to push it straight into faceplant levels. But, apparently, it was the fault of the team? I don't buy it, frankly. |
I don't see anyone saying "OK, grab some purples." Cysts are just not that hard. Bad surprise as you came around a corner? OK. So's an AV if you're not expecting them to spawn there right then.
Also, you've been playing the game how long? I know you're not ignorant of slash commands or of Paragon Wiki. A few seconds of "Wait, is there a way to target by name?" would have brought up precisely what you wanted to know.
Frankly, reading just what was in your team chat window, it looks like you *expected* to fail at it. Obviously I don't see the rest of the chat, but if you're going to go in with "These are auto-teamwipe, we don't have a chance without lots of deaths," which I see both here and in your posts, you're not *going* to look for another way, and you'll end up with a self-fulfilling prophecy of personal dooom.
You have two choices here, Alpha.
1. Take the advice being given to you - about targeting and purples. They are coming from *experience.* And that experience is being relayed by people who, yes, see cysts as no big deal... because they just plain aren't.
Or:
2. Take it as a blame game, keep seeing them as too difficult, unwinnable instant-team-multi-wipes, ignore what you're being told, and keep complaining.
Right now, looking at your responses in the thread, you're going down the path of choice 2. I'd say you'll have far less trouble in the future if you take choice 1.
Vs level 29s I'd agree with you. Cysts are a bit much at that level when you've no Tier 9s to help, especially if they are +3 to you.
But for no more than one wipe. After that you Hosp and load up on purples and smash the bejaysis out of em (well out of the Cyst itself and mop up survivors). The game is rather easy anyway, some occasional challenge is fine IMO (you probably wiped less than the level 20 team I was on fighting +2/3 Council where 3 of the team dropped and we struggled through the rest, I reckon I had 5 or 6 wipes at least).
Caves map. We came around the corner and there was a dip down, via which we could see a cloud of fluffies. The map was on track with us, so no one had been 'scouting' or anything idiotic.
We ran in to try and get a lock on the crystal, standard stuff. The combination of masses of fluffies and Tuatha (There was about 3 bosses in that mob) faceplanted us.
We ran through it about four times, until we managed to nuke the cyst itself.
My main problem is that these things spawn a huge ammount of Lts and Bosses as well as minions. They also use AoE attacks. So, the entire team gets munched on by AoE -speed -recharge neg energy attacks from about 3 spawns worth of fluffies.
This was around level 32, I think? Team leader was 30, some of us were 29. So, going from 'capable diff as long as we're careful' to 'lol faceplant'...sorry, but that just seems unreasonable to expect EVERYONE to be able to deal with that sort of thing off the bat. There just doesn't seem to be any cap as to how many of those damn things spawn.
Actually joined that warshades team an hour after you posted the screenies
All we had was red caps. Now give me an ambush of cysts anyday over an ambush of red caps!!!!
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