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Depends. Who you reading? Kant is boring as all hell. Adam Smith is too self-serving for my taste, but Bauman said some pretty interesting stuff. Of course, you might be a bit further back in Hobbes, Rousseu and Descartes territory (The divine right of kings verses the noble savage verses the cognitive existentialist)|
Originally Posted by Tongz
Hello all, please forgive me for the broadness of this topic. I am new here, and am *still in the process of reading guides/stickies* and etc. (120 pages of Philosophy homework, or CoX? Easy choice.
 |
Please tell me you're not reading Nietzche. Too easy.
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| I'll get right to the point. I've had kheldians unlocked since whatever issue they came out in, but never payed them any attention due to all the negative reviews I heard. Their powers cost too much endurance, did too little damage, and slotting was very restrictive, often forcing a "2-form" build. There is also a long list of "bad things" stickied up there... |
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I'm really interested in trying something unique and challenging. (I have a 50 ice/ice blaster and a 50 claws/ninjitsu stalker. While I like 1-shotting minions, I think it's time I branched out.) I'm especially enamored with the Warshade. My questions are simple: 1. Do kheldians perform their function(s)? 2. Are kheldians unique and interesting in their role, or are they simply a scrapper and a blaster smushed together? 3. What's the playstyle like? (Are you sitting in squid form on teams facerolling 4 buttons, or are you changing forms and using all your abilities?) Thanks very much in advance for your support. *Back to reading* |
2. Yes again. Your role on a team is constantly changing with team dynamics and spawn composition. Especially on a Warshade.
3. Oh, no no no no. Far from it. Black Dwarf's Mire was changed from its long recharge and duration to more of a follow-up type power, and consequently turned the black dwarf into more of a scranker form than a tanker form. You can expect to enjoy spending some time there, as the damage can be quite respectable. Human form carries some rather powerful tools to keep a mob under control and bring your health and endurance back from zero to hero when you need it, and you have a nuke and a mini-nuke to leverage. Did I mention you get pets? No I don't think I did. With Hasten alone you can have two fluffies out at once, so you'll be dropping to human form to get those out, as well. Eclipse will let you be in whatever form you want with capped resistances.
AAAAND then there's nova form. Sure, you can sit in nova during entire fights if you want, and with the inherent carrying over into forms those fights likely won't be long.
Basically, a warshade is very, very good at creating absolutely pristine circumstances for dealing massive amounts of damage, so you won't be disappointed in the long run. My advice for starting is to take nova at six, respec and put ALL slots into the nova attacks (even those before level six - yes you can do that) and pretty much stay in that form (and begin slotting your human attacks as you get them after that) until 20, and then you can start leveraging the three different forms. Trust me, it won't take very long.
Now get back to philosophizing! I want to hear all about Hegel's Weltgeist in your next post!
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Khelds are nothing if not unique and challenging. Roll 'em up and see what you think.
Personally, the things that kill the enjoyment of Khelds for me:
*The slot crunch. So many things to slot, so few slots to slot them with. It gets really eye-rolling using powers with only the base slot.
*Clunky transformations. It's slow and annoying to go from one form to another. It can get you killed even. It'd be nice if Khelds "popped" from one form to another. The dynamic game play that results from that would be amazing.
*Your costume doesn't matter. You look just like every squid or lobster out there much of the time, doing away with one of this game's biggest draws (individuality).
*Lots and lots of Council. I hope you like the Council and their maps because you'll be seeing a lot of them. A whole lot of them.
Most of these complaints are eliminated by doing what quite a few Kheld players do: go human-only. What bothers me about that is the form variation is kind of the point of the Archetype. If you don't use the forms, you're missing out on a lot of what the Archetype is capable of. But human-only gets around so many annoying issues, and presents a viable play style of its own so it ends up being very frequent.
Khelds were a great experiment. You can see what the devs were getting at with them. They largely missed the mark, though. Still, especially post-Kheld-buff, Khelds remain one of the most unique, challenging and potentially rewarding experiences the game has to offer. They aren't for everyone but everyone should try them at least once.
The best comics are still 10�!
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If you only read one guide this year, make it this one.
Super Reflexes: the Golden Fox of power sets!
WARNING: I bold names.
Two very different responses. Guess I'll have to try it out and see what happens. 
As a side note, it *has* always bothered me that being a kheldian means sacrificing 2/3 of your in-game individuality. Oof.
P.S.: It's a Philosophy of Religion course, and I'm reading Draper, Rowe, and Locke. Very good stuff, actually. It just takes a lifetime to read and extract.
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Every time you read Nietzsche a kitten somewhere turns into the Antichrist...| Please tell me you're not reading Nietzche. Too easy. |
He always made me want to slap him across time.
Anyway, the other two answered your question pretty well. What I will add is if you are a min/maxer Warshades become so uberly awesome in the end game that you might end up playing yours exclusively for a long time. Also, the slot crunch is a fun minigame to me, and it can actually go away when you decide how exactly to make your build (I currently have 2 powers and 8 extra slots that I just placed somewhat randomly because all my needs were already met). Be aware you won't likely be soloing AV's or Pylons because your powers rely on sucking the essence out of hordes of foes.
The Inspiration Maker's Guide [i12] UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
A Flash in the Dark: The Electric/Ninjitsu Stalker [i23]
Kheldian Inspiration Macros UPDATED with POPMENUS and Movement Binds!
Guide to the Katana~Ninja Blade/Electric [i23]
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Unfortunately there is a certain amount of truth in the 2-form stereotype. It's possible to make a Kheld that is capable of attacking in all three forms, the problem is that in my opinion there isn't much reason to do so. The basic problem is that both the Human form and the Nova form are essentially Blaster variants. The Nova form is a straight Blaster while the Human form is a Blapper (it's actually closer to an Assault/Armor AT but you get the point). So the issue becomes that since both the Human form and the Nova form are damage dealers is there any real advantage to building up the attacks in both? My feeling is no, there isn't enough difference between the two to warrant it.|
Originally Posted by Tongz
I'll get right to the point. I've had kheldians unlocked since whatever issue they came out in, but never payed them any attention due to all the negative reviews I heard. Their powers cost too much endurance, did too little damage, and slotting was very restrictive, often forcing a "2-form" build. There is also a long list of "bad things" stickied up there...
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There are plenty of advantages to switching to and from Dwarf form depending on the situation but much less reason to switch between Human and Nova.
My experience is that I want to either stay Human all the time (except when I need to go Dwarf) or go Nova almost all the time and switch back to Human every so often for the buffs and pet powers but not bothering with the Human attacks. I did try making a tri-form build where the Human form was intended to be a pocket controller but it just didn't have enough controls to make it really useful.
What I like about my TriForm Warshade is that she can fit into so many roles on a team. Right after I picked up the Dwarf form the great Tanker we had on a PUG had to drop and so I filled in that role. Another team later on did great with tanking and damage so I decided to go with the flow and just blast from above. Small PUG? Then I can do all three.
My human only PB deals a lot of damage right now and I still need to go through a respec to really make her extra shiney. She basically plays as a scrapper and does really well in that role.
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A few questions from you first.|
Originally Posted by Tongz
1. Do kheldians perform their function(s)?
2. Are kheldians unique and interesting in their role, or are they simply a scrapper and a blaster smushed together? 3. What's the playstyle like? (Are you sitting in squid form on teams facerolling 4 buttons, or are you changing forms and using all your abilities?) Thanks very much in advance for your support. *Back to reading* |
1) what function(s) do you want to preform with your Warshade?
I have 2 human-only builds for 2 different roles to play on a team.
1 is a dps-er build designed to offtank squishies in a midrange combat position while dipping into tankpiles for corpses, and 2 nukes.
The other is a far less roller coaster ride, packing a self-rez and intangability, never dropping toggles, and plays as a controllery build able to stun crowds of bosses.
2) Kheledins are unique and interesting in their ability to define their own role, and be buffed by the team based on team build.
3) When i multiform its more of a choice, do I blast hard and let team steamroll, or does the team need offtankage from a weak scrapper. When I'm in humanform my role is defined by my build choice, as I outlined above. I find humanform better for offtankage personally, with a perma eclipse as well as selectively choosing toggles, I'm able to proform in my chosen role of offtanker more consistently. However I've not nearly played the time on my forms build as I have put into Snixnix.
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Snixnix - Humanform Warshade
Various others.
@debtlover
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I tend to switch between all three on a pretty consistent basis, and did so even when I only had SO's in my build.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Unfortunately there is a certain amount of truth in the 2-form stereotype. It's possible to make a Kheld that is capable of attacking in all three forms, the problem is that in my opinion there isn't much reason to do so. The basic problem is that both the Human form and the Nova form are essentially Blaster variants. The Nova form is a straight Blaster while the Human form is a Blapper (it's actually closer to an Assault/Armor AT but you get the point). So the issue becomes that since both the Human form and the Nova form are damage dealers is there any real advantage to building up the attacks in both? My feeling is no, there isn't enough difference between the two to warrant it.
There are plenty of advantages to switching to and from Dwarf form depending on the situation but much less reason to switch between Human and Nova. My experience is that I want to either stay Human all the time (except when I need to go Dwarf) or go Nova almost all the time and switch back to Human every so often for the buffs and pet powers but not bothering with the Human attacks. I did try making a tri-form build where the Human form was intended to be a pocket controller but it just didn't have enough controls to make it really useful. |
Human for buffs/pets/control/damage(with the hold and nuke), dwarf for uh-oh and slugging it out with a tougher foe situations, nova for the rest. I've always felt that Nova's AoE is just so much better than Human.
As for #3(?) from the OP:
I enjoy the variability...while Gravitic Emanation (easily perma) + Nova makes most of the solo game a joke, the fun starts when you have so many different ways to go about playing...and then you up the difficulty/mob type and see if you can pull off the same stuff.
My 'shade is my most played toon by far, and can still be the most fun. I might get other toons up to lvl 35 or so and start to get bored with using the same tactics over and over...with the shade, it's not so much.
My style on my warshade is I try to look for the most damage potential and the most damaging setups of groups. In light of that, I use unchain essence, quasar and of course stygian circle to feast on fallen foes. I like my nova form a lot, too. In a way you can position melee minded foes into death zones directly beneath a hovering squid and then deal all kinds of AoE destruction from above.
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Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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Yea, that's basically the problem I was talking about. It's useful to drop into Human form for the buffs/pets, the odd control here and there and even the nuke if you have it but there is no incentive to STAY in human form and actually use the attacks and shields. You could probably make a decent build that slots up all three forms reasonably well (a LOT of frankenslotting required) but even if you do there is no real advantage to staying in Human form.|
Originally Posted by Square_One
I tend to switch between all three on a pretty consistent basis, and did so even when I only had SO's in my build.
Human for buffs/pets/control/damage(with the hold and nuke), dwarf for uh-oh and slugging it out with a tougher foe situations, nova for the rest. I've always felt that Nova's AoE is just so much better than Human. |
Theoretically the Human form should be about mid-way between two other forms. Tougher than the nova but not as damaging. Better damage than the dwarf but weaker. In practice I just wasn't feeling it.
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Decent way of looking at it.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Theoretically the Human form should be about mid-way between two other forms. Tougher than the nova but not as damaging. Better damage than the dwarf but weaker. In practice I just wasn't feeling it.
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Not as much damage as a dualmired nova, but way more control, and not as squishy as a dwarf but susceptible to mez/stuns/sleeps/younameit. I am of course assuming that you did not ignore toggle armors, and have a perma or near perma eclipse setup. No taunt like dwarf, but taunt in the toggles.
I acually find human to be more survivable than dwarf in a lot of situations. Not having to drop armor for stygian, longer mire duration (peramiable), and a massive singletarget damage move combined with aoe damage, and two nukes combine for some nasty devastation.
Human is a viable build of its own.
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Snixnix - Humanform Warshade
Various others.
@debtlover
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Yeah I have no problem with a human-only build. My problem was that when I tried making a tri-form with the ability to attack in all three forms I just didn't seem to encounter any situations where my thought was "ok, I should switch into Human form now". That being said, I've gotten more experienced at the game, maybe I'll give it another go.
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Originally Posted by Debtlover
Human is a viable build of its own.
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The biggest problem that I have with my warshade is Fury that's right with my warshade it tends to give me the same high as I get from Fury on a brute...i love it.
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Same advice I give when people ask about building a PB for PvP...pick the role/function that u enjoy and specialize. Just because you have 3 transformation options doesn't mean you have the slots to support all of them with the ability to be "real" effective. If you want to be more of a Blapper/melee toon, then split ur slots between Human and Dwarf...dont waste running up Nova. If you want be a super Blaster and pew-pew from 150ft away, then build on Nova's superior range and damage, add procs and there u go. Follow that and all Khelds can "perform their function" well and even over-perform.
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Originally Posted by Tongz
Hello all, please forgive me for the broadness of this topic. I am new here, and am *still in the process of reading guides/stickies* and etc. (120 pages of Philosophy homework, or CoX? Easy choice.
I'll get right to the point. I've had kheldians unlocked since whatever issue they came out in, but never payed them any attention due to all the negative reviews I heard. Their powers cost too much endurance, did too little damage, and slotting was very restrictive, often forcing a "2-form" build. There is also a long list of "bad things" stickied up there... I'm really interested in trying something unique and challenging. (I have a 50 ice/ice blaster and a 50 claws/ninjitsu stalker. While I like 1-shotting minions, I think it's time I branched out.) I'm especially enamored with the Warshade. My questions are simple: 1. Do kheldians perform their function(s)? 2. Are kheldians unique and interesting in their role, or are they simply a scrapper and a blaster smushed together? 3. What's the playstyle like? (Are you sitting in squid form on teams facerolling 4 buttons, or are you changing forms and using all your abilities?) Thanks very much in advance for your support. *Back to reading* |
"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
For me, short answer: definitely.
I play both a PB and a WS as human/dwarf. I very rarely get any mileage out of nova.
I especially like WS because with Sands of Mu and gravity well, plus my stupidfogs (cloak of fear + the oppressive gloom equiv) and shadow cloak for extra +def, my WS basically turns into a perpetual motion machine. Kill dudes, eat dudes, kill dudes, eat dudes.
The only place that fails me is when I get to a last, single boss.
Then it turns into change into lobstah mode, whack on the guy till he drops even if it takes a week.
You can also perpetual motion lobstah if you get stygian circle bound to your change-to-human button. Lobstahsmash till you're tired, hit your bind key and have a snack of blue and green, hit your dwarf key again. It's beautiful.
Plus, as everyone mentions, the double-mire after an eclipse? So, so delicious.
PB is different, pb is more in yr face up close and personal. Less controllery, more scrappery even as a lobstah. But I like both of them very well. They're my go-to toons.
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Well, see, that's where I disagree. The thing is, the Human form isn't the same thing to all Kheldians. For some it's a Ranged/Melee Blapper hybrid, to others it is a heavily sheilded, if mez protectionless tank, for others it is support and buffs for the other two forms. There are simply too many Powers for you to pick all of the available roles. So you have to make the decision as to what the Human form actually is. |
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
The basic problem is that both the Human form and the Nova form are essentially Blaster variants. The Nova form is a straight Blaster while the Human form is a Blapper (it's actually closer to an Assault/Armor AT but you get the point).
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As I've said before, it seems as if you have around five basic builds. You have the Human form, the Human/Nova, the Human/Dwarf, the Nova/Dwarf - the Tri-Form where the Human is essentially just a placeholder for buff effects - and the "dancing" Tri-Form. In the Human/Nova build, the Human takes the place of the Dwarf, providing the defense and melee powers while the Nova takes the range. In the Human/Dwarf build it is the Human form that takes the Nova role, concentrating more on the ranged attacks and being somewhat more fragile and Blaster-like. Then, as I said, for the basic Tri-Form, the Human is just its buff powers, Essense Boost, Essense Drain, Mire, Build Up, and so forth. The best build for this probably doesn't bother with the Human attacks at all.
The final, "dancing" Tri-Form uses all three forms, but shifts constantly to make best use of whatever capabilities are needed. The Dwarf Form provides the basic defense, dropping out into Human and Nova for fast bursts of damage before retreating back to Dwarf. Although there are any number of ways the Human form can be build for this strategy, I prefer to specialize in melee attacks on my Peacebringers, as Incandescent Strike tends to do way more damage than the White Dwarf ever can, while with the Warshade I use his human form for Stalker-like opening strikes using Gravity Well and Mire.
The thing is, you can stick to one form or the other, and either the Human/Dwarf, Human/Nova or Nova/Dwarf builds can easily lend themselves to that. You just pick whichever form is more useful to the situation, and slot it up to the maximum, using the Human form just for momentary boosts. The opposite extreme is "dancing". Honestly, after a while it becomes a matter of personal preference and experience. You FEEL the right time to shift forms, and it becomes as innate a part of your attack chain as an attack or heal.
Of course, that gets back to the role on a team, which to me is that a Kheldian HAS no defined role. He doesn't get assigned a role, he takes it.
You can lock yourself in tank mode if that is what you need (even if you're still shifting to Human form for buffs or to throw up Light Form) or go all out with the blasting. Or you can shift as the situation calls for it.
Kheldians are definitely worth it.
Roll a Warshade. No, do it now. Pick Nova. Pick Mire. Get on a team. Watch as mobs fall before you like grass before a scythe. A scythe made of purple negative energy plasma.
Was just on a team which had two PBs with Nova and my new Warshade on. Dear lord, the carnage! The Carnage!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Ah, you would have loved the all-kheld superteam we had going a year or two ago. It was a ton of fun.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Kheldians are definitely worth it.
Roll a Warshade. No, do it now. Pick Nova. Pick Mire. Get on a team. Watch as mobs fall before you like grass before a scythe. A scythe made of purple negative energy plasma. Was just on a team which had two PBs with Nova and my new Warshade on. Dear lord, the carnage! The Carnage! |
I must say ALL kheld teams rock... They are a lot of fun!
To the point though -- Khelds are definitely unique
WarShades have massive AoE potential -- you get +dmg and +res like crazy AND you can heal yourself effectively. Human form is more of the buffer for the other two, it gives you what you need to destroy, stay alive, and make boom booms - the other two are excellent for sustained dmg and versatility. Mix the 3 together and you have perfection!
PeaceBringers I find more uhh direct and situational -- you need single target dmg you got it ... you need some AoE action and dmg midigation you got it. PB's tend to be more squishy than WS, but they do have a lot more HP. If you were to make a human form only kheld -- I'd definitely suggest PB (does a LOT more ST dmg than WS). I however like my triform - being able to adapt to what I need and such.
So yeah - If you've got other 50s and haven't tried a Kheld -- definitely take it up into the upper 30s before you make your choice -- I think they are a lot of fun, my WS is just beastly, and my PB is adaptive and just flat out fun to play.
Issue 24 PPM Calculator // The Great Makeover: The Vindicators
Both Khelds are fun once they start to mature. Unfortunately they are late-maturing characters, almost regardless of your build - you will be missing critical powers until you rmid-20s to early 30s, and if you're triform you'll be missing even more-critical slots for even longer.
That is almost the extent of their similarities as ATs however. They are very different in power and playstyle.
Peacebringers are fairly average as an AT. They'll perform well enough for most play, especially in comparison to the other ATs on an SO enhancement basis. PBs tend to be self-contained, which makes them more human-form and solo-friendly, and have a more straightforward playstyle. I have a very low opinion of white dwarf; its damage output is very weak and in my opinion is not worth the survivability gain, especially considering your human form has numerous mitigation tools. For mez mitigation, carry breakfrees. Bright nova is just fine.
Warshades are very powerful as an AT. They will perform fine with SOs, and can become absolute monsters with high-end IO set builds. Warshades buff off enemies, like kinetics, so they tend to do better in team settings and using different tactics that take enemies as resources to use rather than foes to be defeated. This is similar to the 'saturate invincibility with minions you don't kill while tanking an AV' mindset. Dark dwarf is quite a bit better off than white dwarf because of dwarf mire, but it is also even more redundant since warshades get eclipse, one of the best survivability tools in the entire game. Eclipsing, miring, and going all-out in dark nova form has been known to make people wonder why anyone bothers playing blasters.
"Experience is the mother of good judgement. Bad judgement is the father of experience."
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Amen to that. Capped mire with a spawn, before erradicating them in Nova form feels...godly |
Originally Posted by Flux_Vector
Warshades are very powerful as an AT. They will perform fine with SOs, and can become absolute monsters with high-end IO set builds. Warshades buff off enemies, like kinetics, so they tend to do better in team settings and using different tactics that take enemies as resources to use rather than foes to be defeated. This is similar to the 'saturate invincibility with minions you don't kill while tanking an AV' mindset. Dark dwarf is quite a bit better off than white dwarf because of dwarf mire, but it is also even more redundant since warshades get eclipse, one of the best survivability tools in the entire game. Eclipsing, miring, and going all-out in dark nova form has been known to make people wonder why anyone bothers playing blasters. |
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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It was really hard to get my peacebringer to 50 because I kept comparing it negatively to my warshade. But thanks to double exp that is finally done.
I apologize to PB lovers but I just can't stand them compared to shades.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
Tried both awhile back , and had no clue what I was doing so I deleted them both , but reading up on builds and what to do and not do has given me the desire to try this EAT again .
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Nothing to apologize for; its all a matter of preferences. Its like a person that enjoys playing Controllers apologizing to someone that prefers playing Blasters. "Variety is the spice of life." |
Originally Posted by SwellGuy
I apologize to PB lovers but I just can't stand them compared to shades.
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"Forum PvP doesn't give drops. Just so all of you who participated in this thread are aware." -Mod08-
"when a stalker goes blue side, assassination strike should be renamed "bunny hugs", and a rainbow should fly out" -Harbinger-
Hello all, please forgive me for the broadness of this topic. I am new here, and am *still in the process of reading guides/stickies* and etc. (120 pages of Philosophy homework, or CoX? Easy choice.
I'll get right to the point. I've had kheldians unlocked since whatever issue they came out in, but never payed them any attention due to all the negative reviews I heard. Their powers cost too much endurance, did too little damage, and slotting was very restrictive, often forcing a "2-form" build. There is also a long list of "bad things" stickied up there...
I'm really interested in trying something unique and challenging. (I have a 50 ice/ice blaster and a 50 claws/ninjitsu stalker. While I like 1-shotting minions, I think it's time I branched out.) I'm especially enamored with the Warshade. My questions are simple:
1. Do kheldians perform their function(s)?
2. Are kheldians unique and interesting in their role, or are they simply a scrapper and a blaster smushed together?
3. What's the playstyle like? (Are you sitting in squid form on teams facerolling 4 buttons, or are you changing forms and using all your abilities?)
Thanks very much in advance for your support. *Back to reading*