EU gets shafted - AGAIN!

In the latest article in the UK PC gamer magazine which has a section on CoH it describes the US servers [re: number of servers/population/available slots etc] instead of the EU ones. Dont know about anybody else here but i would like an article thats published in the EU about the EU side of things, not the NA ones

Havent read any of the other magazines/online reviews of the upcoming i17/GR so could be an isolated incident, but think we all know it isnt

Fixed

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

If you're so hung up on getting a bit of cardboard, buy the box online and stick it on your shelf, and buy GR EU digitally. Yeah, you'll have to pay twice, but think of all the moaning you'll save yourselves.

Sheesh. Anyone would think we were living in 1910, not 2010. It's a cardboard box and a bit of plastic, for Pete's sake! And moaning about bandwidth is ludicrous. What, do you guys play on a Babbage Engine? The game's gotta be a max of 10gig. That's an overnight dl even for someone at pathetic download speeds.

Eco.

PS isthat it, then? Its the lack of a box for your shelf that's the big disaster? Only the title of the thread is 'EU shafted AGAIN', so i wondered what there was before.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

I think the majority has been discussed in this thread but there is a general feeling among the EU community that NCSoft don't seem to care what happens to the EU servers.

Although some have said they would like to own a boxed copy of the game for collection purposes it also represents a lack of shelf or online shop presence (e.g. amazon, play.com). There is a concern that the fact that NCSoft aren't willing to invest resources into advertising the EU side of the game that they don't care about the servers and are willing to let them just die, unlike the NA servers which they are trying to attract more customers to.

I know have read arguments about Steam(?) the online store but I hadn't even heard of that until the threads about this mentioned it, so there are probably others out there to!

There are also others historical things such as the closing of the Brighton offices, the loss of EU side specific maintenance times, the EU website/old forums/updater not being updated at the same time as the US ones, EU not getting access to closed betas, the belief after the EU didn't get the MA boxset we would get the next big box release (ie GR) not happening to name just a few.

And honestly I think having to wait overnight to download a game in which I could play in 15mins from a disc installation is rediculous. Some broadband providers actually limit the amount of data you can download, some people have to share an internet connection (I know I have to negotiate with my other half when I want to play and when they want to download stuff) and some people still play on a dial up connection.

Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR

Originally Posted by Zwillinger Quote: 16. Has Paragon Studios redefined "player" to require your mouse to subscribe separately from your keyboard? If your mouse has greater processing power than your gfx card, the answer is yes.

The advertising NCSoft does for the NA version is miniscule compared to the size of the potential market. We don't have access to the exact numbers, but if you compare like for like, factoring in the populations of the respective markets, I'd be willing to bet that the EU would come out on top if advertising media that applies to both (online advertising, interviews with devs on massively.com etc) is included.

If you've never heard of Steam, then you are definitely in the minority of the PC gaming market. Coca Cola doesn't try to attract customers who only take notice of adverts placed in Potato World Magazine, for sound economic reasons.

Historical meaning they no longer apply?

Dial up? Next you'll be complaining that CoH won't run on your green-screen monitor, and bemoan the lack of support for MS-DOS. Give me a break.

So the EU members ARE in fact eligible for Closed Betas (which are btw utterly optional, bonus, free giveaways from the devs, not included in the price you pay and they've never said that this is the case)?

Something else which no longer applies?

This is the only valid point I can see, TBH, positing that a presence of boxed sets in EU shops may garner extra players from casual purchases. Unfortunately, the number-crunchers at NCSoft, who are presumably better at determining the economics behind their decisions that we are, have analysed the situation and concluded that the income from any new players gained in such a way would not overcome the expense of distribution. I don't want NCSoft making a loss on EU physical distribution, as that means less money to be pumped into development for my game (and there is a direct connection between profits and development funds, as shown in the case of the wedding pack, for example).

I'm not sure if this is still the case, as you used the past tense. If it's OK now, then why the long face?

So you do now, the devs listened and changed things, apparently.

I'm a huge Doctor Who fan, and one thing I bear in mind when it comes to 'news' or news from anywhere is something that Russel T Davis said once. "If you don't read about it on the BBC DW site, or in DW Magazine, don't treat it as true. When you do read it on the BBC DW site or in DW magazine, it IS true" - That has served me well in terms of CoH, too. We on the NA side used to get announcements that were unlcear on a number of things or opened up additional questions, and the doomsayers on the forums would get all rabid and ranty and spout loads of bollocks, frankly. Blaming the devs for forumgoers immaturity and panic-mongoring is unfair. Until the devs say "We're closing the EU servers", then letting speculation convince you it's true is pandering to the trolls.

Without a verifiable report on this 'test', I can't comment. I'm not versed enough in server software etc to speculate on why the EU servers should not have this mechanism in place.

It may be 'well-known' to you, but again, without any links or numbers to back up this claim I can't comment. I'm not saying you're lying, but evidence to support this should be fairly easy to produce, with programs being available that record such things. The people who tested it may have been comparing peak time EU to the dead zone NA, for example. IAs I'm playing on the NA servers at Central European times, my game is wonderfully lag-free, on a comparitively low 1.5 Mb connection. I wonder, if an NA player compared peak-time NA play to 3 am GMT on tan EU server, maybe the lag would be less.

Obviously far more factors than simply server population are involved, but without numbers, anything is just speculation IMO.

So now we have them.

Is this still the case? My updater has 'Check out the new Going Rogue website' on the left, and 'Dual Pistols Get it now' on the right. If your updater is consistently a month out of date then that is indeed terrible customer service.



I know that Brits like to moan, I'm a hated figure in my local branch of Empik (Polish version of Virgin) because of my demanding customer service requirements, but you lot seem to me to be bellyaching about a lot of really minor crap. I feel for you if you think you don't have large enough server populations - I actually shudder when i think of being made for some reason to move to the EU servers, mostly because of the fewer players that I hear are there (and I've got no actual numbers to look at) and the comparitively small number ofservers - but ranting in caps about GETTING SHAFTED because they're only releasing GR digitally in the EU is way over the top IMO. It's EASY (I don't care what Luddites on dial up think) to purchase GR in the EU. With prepurchase, you'll be able to take advantage of a pre-download too, very probably, as they do with the normal upgrades, so when you log off, it'll dl and ready the game for you while you're asleep. This is speculation on my part, of course, but even if they don't, waiting overnight for it to dl is NOT an onerous task for any mature person. Screaming 'I WANNA BUY IT IN THE SHOP TODAY, I WANTS IT NAOW!' just looks childish.

Eco

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

As you say we don't have the numbers so I can't agree or disagree with you there but there are also NCSoft and CoX presence at US events such as PAX and HeroCon to take into account. I know you are in the same position as the rest of EU as you are based in Poland but presence of such events may affect the population of the NA servers which you play on.

You may be right, but as you say in your own responces we don't have any numbers to prove either of us right/wrong.

Don't mean to be rude but it was you who asked: "Only the title of the thread is 'EU shafted AGAIN', so i wondered what there was before." so we have given you this.

I'm lucky in that I do have a good internet connection and a decent spec'd machine. But not everyone has and not everyone can afford to upgrade, doesn't mean you get to dismiss them.

And there is a whole thread dedicated to those who use dial up here http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=203234.

And I am still considering importing a copy of the GR box from America (even though the serial codes won't) for the fact it will still be quicker for me to install the game from that and manually change the cohupdater file than it would be for me to spend ages downloading the whole game again.

Well I think we will just have to agree to disagree here. From the discussion that has happened in this thread and another I have been reading it is more than childish rant about just not being able to buy it.

Member of GGRRR, a SG on Defiant - check out our website - GGRRR

Originally Posted by Zwillinger Quote: 16. Has Paragon Studios redefined "player" to require your mouse to subscribe separately from your keyboard? If your mouse has greater processing power than your gfx card, the answer is yes.

I don't understand your defensive nature, we already established -either in this thread or another- that the marketing faults are debatable. After all, if the population is dwindling, why market?! It's a double-edged sword, it could work successfully or fail miserably. We established that.

I really don't think you appreciate our difficulties, from what I gather you are a NA subscriber so you really can not understand our predicament. Having said that, I applaud you for not waltzing in and going " Omg, lek stfu EU whine nubs" like I've heard many a time. I can't be bothered badgering this fallacy of a relationship between EU and the studio again. It's entirely subjective of course how you take it, but our fervent complaining has roots that established themselves a long time ago.

We have been ignored and for far too long. And you know the pathetic thing, even being on these joint forums has changed nothing, we just got chucked a sub-forum so we can sit in a corner and twiddle our thumbs.

The last time we attempted to get their attention, I'll state this again, is when we insulted one or two red-names. I don't think that is how attention should be brought about.

Don't underestimate our situation, it's far worse than I gather you seem to comprehend. I am not bearing on you, I just have cynicism when non-EU subscribers tell us something. I do like you.

Fury

Ok you can stop now.

It's a lot more than a bit of cardboard and plastic as has been pointed out numerously over a number of threads.

You've taken it upon yourself to attempt to debunk our arguments - walls of text and an unwillingness to appreciate how many of us who actually have EU accounts and play on the EU servers feel.

I respect your right to express your disagreement. It has been noted now be quiet please.

"You got to dig it to dig it, you dig?"
Thelonious Monk

I've read through your post, and this is just rude and stereotyping. I'm an EU player, in London, but I'm not a Brit and nor are many of the people who are in here complaining. I'm dissapointed we don't get a box because I'm on a capped download package which means downloading a 3-4gb game (given that there is a 900 odd mb download on the test at the moment of just the UM version of the current game 3-4 isn't out of the question) would take a serious chunk out of my allowance and possibly mean they will restrict my access for the rest of the month. I would much rather go into Game and pick up a tangible DVD I can stick in my machine.

You're right, I don't really understand your predicament. As far as I see it, and I stated this upthread, I'm playing the same game as you. I have been to ONE ingame dev-attended event, at sth ridiculous like 3am on a thursday. *i only stayed for abt 5 mins cos I had to go to sleep, and in it i saw Lord Recluse across a massively crowded Pocket D. It was rubbish.*

As far as I'm aware, there's ONE other CoH player in Poland, she lives in the South and she was quite rude when I PMed her with a 'hi, if you're ever in Wawa look me up if you fancy a beer' ( and I wasn't attempting to chT her up either. )

I'm just saying this to explain my situation. It looks to me as though i've potentially got it worse than you apart from having more servers.*

So don't sit here. Make City Life your base forum. My base forum is the MA Stories and Lore forum. I'm quite happy there.*

As a geographically European fairly marginalised niche player, I was unaware tgat 'the devs hate EU' until i read it in this forum. It sometimes *looks to an occasional drop-in like myself that all you lot do is moan. I say that not to offend, btw. *

I apologise sincerely *for maybe coming over as too critical earlier. *If you remove tge things which have been addressed and no longer apply from damz' list, what's left?*

Your words (and your measured polite approach, pleasantly unlike SS' feeble attempt at patronisation) remind me that when i complain about ny own personal bugbear, minimum TF team sizes, I'm perplexed by opponents who don't seem to grasp that what I ask for would have no negative effect on their game. Looking at my comments here, I agree that I have been a tad too aggressive in stating my opinion on your claims. My apologies.*

Personally, I am very happy with the service I receive from NCSoft as a European subscriber (despite not having access to a box set of GR on the same day I decide to buy it, not having dev-attended events on my server at convenient times, having maintenence times that interrupt my play at inconvenient times, and having zero dev-presence at meet n greets or other RL gaming events in the country I live in. However, I've no right to disparage those who feel that their level of service is lacking, and as:

a. We dont have potential income vs distribution costs figures to hand
b. More choice is always good IMO
c. Damz is Welsh

then I /sign the 'GR box set for EU, please Devs' request. **

Eco

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

(most quoted piece of text so far in this thread... thought I would quote it anyway so people know what I am responding to)


I don't think the complaining has been 'I wanna buy it in a shop rather than download it' for the most part.

I may be wrong about this but I believe that the complaining is a cause of a fear that many EU subscribers have over the future of their game. For the purposes of this argument it can be seen that 'their' game is not City of Heroes/Villains but the EU iteration of City of Heroes/Villains. The future of CoX (abbreviated for convenience sake) is not in doubt, however there is speculation over the future of EU CoX.

Yes, if it has not been said officially then there is nothing concrete to base itself upon BUT (and this is a big but) if the situation carries on like this then it appears that the population in the EU can only decline.

There is no shelf presence for 'passing trade' to stumble upon.

Recent magazine articles direct you to the US servers (or at least describe them and fail to mention that EU exists).

These points are far from conclusive but you can see why the perceptions they create can cause fear (or at least worry).


If we were to follow your advice and not worry until a message is posted up somewhere official that the EU server are closed down due to diminishing numbers then it will (obviously) be too late. What we are asking for is some reassurance or at least ask that the implications are considered by those who are in a position to make these decisions. We do not know that these people are not already considering these implications but from our perspective it is safest to assume that they are not.

If they are, all well and good and all we are doing here is keeping the issue (or percieved issue if you prefer) current.

If they are not being considered and won't be until the point where a piece of paper is slipped to someone with figures showing that the EU servers are no longer economical then the likely action is to close them much like happened to the Korean servers. They were offered a few weeks free play on the US servers when theirs were closed. Far easier to do that than to try and work on merges or whatever. It is THIS prospect that has the EU worried and is the reason we are complaining to hopefully avoid this ever becoming a possibility. Once any decision is made and announced it is (usualy) too late to make them change it. If, however enough of a stink is kicked up about it before it becomes a critical issue then a better solution can (hopefully) be found.


I seem to have rambled a lot but I hope my point is at least vaguely clear.

We know that we can get GR over here but it is effectively preaching to the converted. New players cannot get GR unless they already know about CoX. New players cannot know about CoX unless it is out there somewhere shouting 'look at me, I may be 5 years old but I don't look it and I certainly have more to offer than any shiny new toy out there'.

The ideal situation is that the EU servers carry on with enough subsrcibers to be profitable and provide an enjoyable playing atmosphere for everyone in it. Should that not be the case we would like some reassurance that we are not just going to be told 'thanks for playing, why don't you start again over here'.

As far as I can see that is the issue and not just 'WAAAH, NO BOX'.

I hope that helps.

Yes, you're right. However, I still think that phrases such as 'EU players SHAFTED!' are not helpful and only serve to get people's backs up, as evinced by my own reaction.

Eco.

EDIT: Incidentally, and this doesn't have any bearing on other people's choices, I understand this, but if for some reason the US servers were closed and I was offered nothing more than the chance to start again from scratch on the EU servers, with a reasonable guarantee that the player numbers there would be equivalent of what I currently see on Freedom, I would, even if I'd lose all my toons and vet rewards etc.

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

What if you had to repurchase GR, the 4 booster packs, and any other perks you had? I'd be happy with the option to restart on the NA servers without my toons or vet rewards, but would not want to have to repay for items I already own.

I'm not even considering losing my toons, this isn't Korea all over again. That just failed to an epic degree. We've built these up and some of us, I've stopped and started, have subscribed since EU was given their own server. I find it a smack in the face to these subscribers especially if they were told to up and start again on US.

After all, what's the difference between we EU-subscribers being told to move to NA but our account stays with us, with no data whatsoever - i.e all characters/etc lost - and simply starting an new NA account.

Fury

Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow [The Incarnate System is] Jack Emmert all over again, only this time it's not "1 hero = 3 white minions" it's "1 hero = 3 white rocks."

"Attention. Attention. May I have the board's attention? This week's mission will be When Willie Comes Marching Home. Uh... The biggest parade of laughs of Issue 9. All the love, laughs and escapades of the Willies who came marching home. This mission stars Clockwork, The Council, and fifteen Lost."

I am officially confused